BRD Cooldown sequence?

Hello fellow Bards!

I'm curious how you use your DPS cooldowns. Do you stack them all at first go, then use them as soon as they come off CD?

Do you pair up some of them, and wait with the others?

Since you lose a few seconds(it takes several seconds for all animations to be cast) on the first CD's you pop in which order do you pop them?

Do you weave Bloodletter in between CD's when stacking if it pops?

EDIT: I pretty much found what I looked for a few posts down. /bonk

It's best to stack them all simultaneously to get the most out of them. You want barrage with that extra damage and high crit rate. You also want to apply your dots with them all in effect so your dots do the most damage.

This is for bosses. For trash, using one at a time is better.

on trash I tend to Quelling > Release > Straight > Bloodletter > Wind Bite > Venimous > Rain > Flaming > (varies either burn down one, or spread Dots for Bloodletter)

on bosses it's fairly similar... I tend to save the other cooldowns for when I have to burn down an add. I do try to keep up Rain to make life easier on my healer/tank even though it eats my TP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

It's best to stack them all simultaneously to get the most out of them. You want barrage with that extra damage and high crit rate. You also want to apply your dots with them all in effect so your dots do the most damage.

This is for bosses. For trash, using one at a time is better.

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^This. It is the most dps efficient strategy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

It's best to stack them all simultaneously to get the most out of them. You want barrage with that extra damage and high crit rate. You also want to apply your dots with them all in effect so your dots do the most damage.

This is for bosses. For trash, using one at a time is better.

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This still doesn't answer the question fully. If you pop them all at one time rather than in between attacks, which order is the best? You're losing seconds on each buff, so some order must be slightly better than another.

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Originally Posted by rzr22

This still doesn't answer the question fully. If you pop them all at one time rather than in between attacks, which order is the best? You're losing seconds on each buff, so some order must be slightly better than another.

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Yes, this has me wondering.

It feels like Quelling is the most important one to have with everything else up.

Use Barrage last and Internal Release second to last.

dont forget to always use bloodletter BEFORE windbite to potentialy reset the cooldown on bloodletter.

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Originally Posted by rzr22

This still doesn't answer the question fully. If you pop them all at one time rather than in between attacks, which order is the best? You're losing seconds on each buff, so some order must be slightly better than another.

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From testing dummy, this has little to no impact.
I personally prefer to pop everything at once, this allows a few seconds for tanks to generate enough hate.

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Originally Posted by Thotor

From testing dummy, this has little to no impact.
I personally prefer to pop everything at once, this allows a few seconds for tanks to generate enough hate.

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your wasting your buff if you pop them all at once. buffs ignore the gcd so you can start your rotation by using straightshot/heavyshot/bloodletter while applying any 2 buffs. then do DoT shots. if you pop anything BEFORE make it quelling. but popping all your buffs wates about 4 seconds of the actual buffs. they are short as is so milking everything you can out of them is where max dps would be.

Sorry but no. As I have said, I tested it on dummy. This is no theory but actual testing.

I'm a new Bard, but what I do is like this: StraightShot>Bloodletter>Wind>InternalRelease>Venomous>Raging>HeavyShot>BforB>StraightShot>HawkEye>HeavyShot>Barrage>Wind>BindingShot>Venom> repeat. This is for non-dungeon fights. If there is a tank, maybe i'll go with Quelling first. Point is, I use Skills with GCD in between skills with non-GCD.

There are really two ways to go about this.

DoTs immediately with IR to maximize bloodletter immediately.
Optimal stacking of cooldowns (and maximum dot damage) by reapplying dots after stacking.


DoTs immediately would follow this opener, | means weave inbetween GCD

[SS | IR] -> [Wind | BL] -> [Veno | HE] -> [HS | RS] -> [HS | BfB] -> [HS | Barrage] -> [HS | Quelling] -> rotation.

Optimal cooldown stacking would delay IR till right before quelling, like this, then reapply dots right during this.

[SS | BL] -> [Wind | HE] -> [Veno | RS] -> [HS | BfB] -> [HS | IV] -> [Wind | Barrage] -> [Veno | Quelling] -> rotation.

I prefer the latter, because its what I'm used to.

The idea of "cooldown stacking" or "wasting cooldown" is kind of a fallacy. You will get the maximum amount of stacking if you go HE -> RS -> BfB -> IV -> Barrage. The reason I HE first is because its the lowest dps increase (15% dex < 20% damage). The reason I BfB after RS is because RS has a longer cooldown, and BfB's weird 80 sec cooldown lets it be used easier with HE/Barrage on rotation.

EDIT: I should mention that obviously, you delay cooldowns for BL, and you use SS instead of HS when you get the proc.

EDIT2: furthermore if you have aggro problems, instead of delaying quelling till the end, open with quelling before your first straight shot. This actually results in LESS total aggro reduction, but more frontloaded aggro reduction.

Keep in mind also that your damage doesn't spike until barrage, so I would advocate quelling last instead of first unless your tank is absolutely terrible at initial aggro.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

There are really two ways to go about this.

DoTs immediately with IR to maximize bloodletter immediately.
Optimal stacking of cooldowns (and maximum dot damage) by reapplying dots after stacking.


DoTs immediately would follow this opener, | means weave inbetween GCD

[SS | IR] -> [Wind | BL] -> [Veno | HE] -> [HS | RS] -> [HS | BfB] -> [HS | Barrage] -> [HS | Quelling] -> rotation.

Optimal cooldown stacking would delay IR till right before quelling, like this, then reapply dots right during this.

[SS | BL] -> [Wind | HE] -> [Veno | RS] -> [HS | BfB] -> [HS | IV] -> [Wind | Barrage] -> [Veno | Quelling] -> rotation.

I prefer the latter, because its what I'm used to.

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Wouldn't it make more sense to open with HS instead of SS incase the first HS procs Heavier Shot? That's how I've been doing it. You're only missing out on probably 1 tick worth of crit chance from WB and 0 or 1 from VB anyways, I think.

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Originally Posted by gotaplanstan

Wouldn't it make more sense to open with HS instead of SS incase the first HS procs Heavier Shot? That's how I've been doing it. You're only missing out on probably 1 tick worth of crit chance from WB and 0 or 1 from VB anyways, I think.

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no? Because you miss out on the 10% crit buff for 1 GCD anyway.

Think about it this way: Do you never SS unless you have HS proc? If the answer is no, then it makes no sense to open with HS.

Here's a basic bard guide. It's my first and i realize there are preferences on how you handles buff usage, i try my best to weave, but i feel that only at the pull does this ever really become an issue of min maxing.

http://forum.xivnation.com/index.php...slinging.2253/

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Do you never SS unless you have HS proc? If the answer is no, then it makes no sense to open with HS.

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that's not what I said was it? let's do some math shall we?

your way:

ss = 140 potency
wb = 45 potency (1 tick)
bl = 150 potency
vb = 35 potency (1 tick)
hs = 150 potency

since I was generous giving a tick worth of dmg for vb I'll be conservative and say that you'll only have 30% crit chance due to ss and ir for wb/vb tick crit to proc bl

bl = 150 potency

30% of 150 is 45, but it only happens 50% of the time on crits, or 15% of the time...but with the example we assumed 2 ticks, which gives a 27.45% chance of proccing...

so total you're looking at an average of 41.175 which gives a total average of 561.175 potency doing things your way

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my way:

hs = 150 potency
wb = 45 potency
bl = 150 potency
vb = 35 potency
ss = 182 potency (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140)

total potency = 562

oops, I used the first sequence you posted as an example, actually using your rotation loses dps compared to the first because of not getting IR up for the first set of dots

the estimation on crit potency is based off the fact that atm my hs non crits are around 200 and my crits are around 300

now, the only assumptions made were both in your example, with the more important one being about the tick of vb happening, because if it doesn't then you'll need around 60% total crit to just break even with my suggestion

edit: I also just realized I forgot to mention the initial potency damage on both WB and VB so add 160 on to both figures

Since they're off GCD, I make sure all of my dots are up and use my blood letter with straight shot up before I start cycling my DPS CDs, so basically once you enter sustain spam mode you turn them on when your GCD is going (between heavy shots most likely) and yes spam your bloodletters in there too. I noticed this blows stuff to hell the fastest and uses the buffs the best.

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Originally Posted by gotaplanstan

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Your way is flawed, because you fail to acknowledge your actual crit rate increases with SS.

Assuming a 15% base crit (which is around 500 crit rating)

Your way

HS - 150*(.15*1.5 + .85) = 161.25
SS - 140*(.2*1.5 + .8*(.15*1.5+.85)) = 162.4
WB (and 1 tick) - 105*(.25*1.5 + .75) = 118.125
VB - 100*(.25*1.5 + .75) = 112.5

Total = 554.275

Orig way

SS - 140*(.15*1.5 + .85) = 150.5
WB - and 2 ticks, 150*(.25*1.5 + .75) = 168.75
VB - 1 tick, 135*(.25*1.5 + .75) = 151.875
HS - 150 * (.25*1.5 + .75) = 168.75

Total = 639.875

So...yea. Not to mention, with IR, its skewed even more towards getting SS and dots up first instead of delaying 2.5 seconds.

Also, thats not even mentioning the extra tick of possible bloodletter reset chance.

Also, you have to delay bloodletter in your scenario in order to take advantage of IR and SS.

EDIT: Furthermore, your formula for SS (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140) is wrong, as you don't have a .2 chance of crit, and then a 1.0 chance of "normal", you have a .2 chance of crit, and a .8 chance of normal. Aka it would look like (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140*.8), which is even lower than my way of accounting for base crit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gotaplanstan

my way:

hs = 150 potency
wb = 45 potency
bl = 150 potency
vb = 35 potency
ss = 182 potency (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140)

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You can't just look at 1 tick because dots "snapshot" the buffs you have up when you apply them. If you apply them and then apply straight shot later, the entire duration loses out on 10% crit chance. It does not update for each tick individually.
You ALWAYS want SS buff up before applying dots (and IR as well as much as humanly possible).

In order for your way to make any sense you need to do the math on:

HS->SS->WB->BL->VB
vs
SS->WB->BL->VB->HS

Delaying the dots by an extra global for a potential Straighter Shot proc vs not delaying dots. I think you'll find that getting dots up faster is a no brainer.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

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your edit is correct, unfortunately that's kind of irrelevant

for 1, your estimation that wb will tick two times is wrong, if you look at the timing on the sequence you're using as an example it would look like this:

ss = 0.0s
wb = 2.5s
vb = 5.0s
hs = 7.5s

last I checked, 5 =/= 6, and last I checked dots tick every 3s, so there's no possible way for a second tick to occur

that means your wb damage is cut in half, to 84.375, as well as your total, which gives us 555.5

but wait, we just realized that 5 =/= 6, so I think it's safe to say 2.5 =/= 3 as well yes? so that gives us zero VB ticks in the proposed sequence

that reduces the total potency from 555.5 to 403.625

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Originally Posted by gotaplanstan

that reduces the total potency from 555.5 to 403.625

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Because DoTs are on the global timer, you have no clue when your dot is actually going to apply.

It doesn't automagically start counting 3 seconds after you apply a DoT.

Realistically...lets look at the timer.

[0.0 sec] - SS
[~1.0 sec] - SS applies
[2.5 sec] - Cast WB
[~3.5 sec] - WB applies
[5.0 sec] - Cast VB
[~6.0 sec] - VB applies
[7.5 sec] - Cast HS
[10.0 sec] - End of HS GCD

So...the time between WB application (~3.5 sec) and end of HS (10.0 sec) is at least 6.5 seconds, which means it is guaranteed that there are 2 ticks, maybe even 3. So I am doing the actual, MINIMUM # of ticks possible, rather than Maximum, and certainly not "impossible".

Between VB (~6.0 sec) and end of HS GCD (10.0 sec) is 4 seconds, again guaranteeing 1 tick, and maximum 2 ticks.

Notice I also took into account animation delay (the ~1 second) in case we are being that nitpicky about DoT timings.

Furthermore, if you're going to subtract ticks from my argument, you must also do the same for yours. So...please. Pay attention here. We're not enemies lol, but again, I wanted to restate why your method doesn't work.

Because as I said in my first post, if you are doing this at the beginning of the fight, you must also justify using it in the middle of a fight, when SS is falling off and also your dots. This DOES happen, purely based on positioning of SS procs.

So when theres 1 second left on SS, WS, and VS, do you apply SS? Or do you do HS->SS for a proc?

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Originally Posted by Bardo

In order for your way to make any sense you need to do the math on:

HS->SS->WB->BL->VB
vs
SS->WB->BL->VB->HS

Delaying the dots by an extra global for a potential Straighter Shot proc vs not delaying dots. I think you'll find that getting dots up faster is a no brainer.

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Exactly, and this is precisely what I compare to here. Also note you need to compare till the end of the last GCD, because you're not doing 4 actions in 7.5 seconds, you're doing it in 10. I do ignore BL though because it is the same damage for both. Though, again, earlier dots mean more chances for River of Blood, which would push the "standard" rotation even more ahead.

EDIT: also your math is just wrong >.> Losing 1 tick each for WS and VS, totals 80 potency, and with 25% chance to crit is still only losing 90 potency. I'm not sure how I suddenly lost a whopping 240 or so potency. I think you were factoring in the base damage into their DoT tick totals, which is simply not correct.

EDIT2: using your rotation, here are the timings

[0.0 sec] - HS
[2.5 sec] - SS
[~3.5 sec] - SS applies
[5.0 sec] - WB
[~6.0 sec] - WB applies
[7.5 sec] - VB
[~8.5 sec] - VB applies
[10.0 sec] - end of VB GCD

As you can see you can only guarantee one tick for WB, 2 ticks max, and 0 ticks for VB, 1 tick max.

So I am giving both rotations equal treatment.

No offense but unless you can provide proof that dots function the way you're describing, it's safer for me (and everybody else) to assume that it's not accurate.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

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That's correct. And further expanding on my idea of reversing the SS/HS opening order, I did some parser testing over the last 3 days on mlvl 50 dummies and found the best rotation (including opening) over 3 minute periods to actually start with HS and SS as the first two skills. I was as shocked as you probably are, that delaying getting WB and VB up didn't have long term (boss fight wise) effects of a negative nature. But in the end, the best rotation I could find for said duration basically was such because of having 100% cd uptime on all but IR during the first Barrage duration. And the 2nd and 3rd cycles of certain cds also aligned such that there were never less than 2 active during their 2nd/3rd activations.

Now obviously quite a few fights are longer than 3 minutes, but since the longest cd timer on any of them is also that duration, that's why I chose to test that way.

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Originally Posted by gotaplanstan

found the best rotation (including opening) over 3 minute periods to actually start with HS and SS as the first two skills.

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I wouldn't put much faith in that kind of testing, because the damage difference is 150 or so potency over the course of 3 minutes, the total potency of which is at least in the 20k area, not including autoattacks or cooldowns. It is a 0.8% damage change max, and that is pretty impossible to see during testing.

What you are seeing is more likely natural variation in proc differences, etc.

The math proves you wrong.

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Originally Posted by gotaplanstan

No offense but unless you can provide proof that dots function the way you're describing, it's safer for me (and everybody else) to assume that it's not accurate.

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Lets go with your way of how dots work.

Based on the timings, they WS still ticks twice, from 3.5 sec application to 10.0 sec end.

VS still ticks once, from 6.0 application to 10.0 end.

It is really difficult to argue a point over this amount of ignorance.

Here are the key points.

1. You calculated "dot" damage as to 7.5 seconds instead of 10 seconds. If you do it this way, why don't you calculate your initial dps on the first attack over 0.0 seconds? Do infinite dps? You obviously calculate damage at the end of your last GCD for proper numbers.
2. You only subtracted dot damage from the "standard" way instead of the "hs" way, if you do it for one, do it for the other. You also subtraced something like 240 potency for 2 dot ticks. Did we turn into summoners?
3. You misread the total potency of the attack as the potency of losing a dot tick.
4. You also potentially miss 1 autoattack w/o SS buff. Big difference? Not in the long run, but it does make a difference in these first 10 seconds.
5. You completely ignore that 1 extra tick (2 actually, 3 ticks vs 1 tick) that can give you another BL proc.

No offense but, if you're going to use math to prove your point, at least be consistent and make sure you're using the correct (or at least what we assume to be correct) math.

EDIT: As to the dot thing.

How do you think it works? We agree that dots tick every 3 seconds, yes? That is what everyone agrees on.

Now, do we also agree that all dot damage is lumped into one giant "blob" of damage? You notice this if you ever group with someone. Dot damage is all calculated simulateously.

Now, where in this scenario do you get the idea that your dots are based on YOUR timer, based on when YOU apply your dot? How can it possibly be that way, and still have the above two observed rules be true?

Afaik, the only way it makes sense is whenever it comes time to "check dots" it checks to see if your dot is applied. If it is, it does damage, lumped together with all the other dots.

"safer for everyone else" ...what? You basically ignored my entire post, and went after the only thing that we are possibly unsure on, which I made 3 distinct cases for you that regardless of how it works, unless in some magical universe dots cease to work entirely, where your rotation is just plain wrong.

I'm normally not this angry, but you're kind of pushing my buttons with your spreading of this new rotation with complete disregard for the math. I am trying to be as fair and arbitrary as I can, and you provide anecdotal evidence (btw, for your anecdotal evidence to have confidence within 1%, to actually see the difference, you would need to do hundreds of trials, so unless you spent an entire day rigorously testing, I highly doubt your trials accomplished anything).

Lets go back to the first two posts, shall we? Based on your very first post, you stated that your way gave 562 potency while my way gave 561.175.

Dubious math aside, this is a difference of .825 potency. Then, in your very next post, you acknowledged that your SS formula (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140) was wrong, even in the absence of external crit factors. Thus, right there, your rotation is worse.

That should've ended the discussion, but even after my exhaustive analysis of the rotation, you still remain unconvinced.

I'm really not sure what to say.

It's a sad day when people who are corrected for being wrong start slinging insults. But, since you seem to want to address specific things I'll bite.

First off, your example IS a 7.5 second window. Why are you trying to say that 2.5 ► 10.0s is the new topic? Because it's not.
Second, regarding the 0.825 potency difference, that's only assuming one of the available ticks proc BL. Whereas the rotation I mentioned does not rely on that, and still out performs it even if it does, even if it is by a fractional margin.
Thirdly, obviously you have some insecurities if you're insulting me when you're wrong. Notice how when I was, I admitted as much and even agreed.

What I suggest you do, is go do some parser testing in Coerthas. Because talking hypothetical scenarios seems to be something you don't do very well.

As far as your last sentence, if you don't have anything constructive or correct to say, usually it's best not to say anything at all.

Cheers.

...what?

You don't seem to have a sense of what you're arguing.

The reason we do a 10 second window, is because we use 4 attacks.

What I am explaining is inductive reasoning.

If you do one attack, do you calculate its dps as over 0.0 seconds, or 2.5 seconds?
If you do two attacks, do you calculate its dps over 2.5 seconds or 5.0 seconds?
If you do three attacks, do you calculate its dps over 5.0 seconds, or 7.5 seconds?
If you do four attacks, do you calculate its dps over 7.5 seconds, or 10.0 seconds?

You must be consistent in your methodology. If you assume you don't do infinite dps on your first attack, then you must also assume that you do 4 attacks over the course of 10.0 seconds, not 7.5 seconds. Please explain why you do four attacks, then calculate dps over 7.5 seconds or 3 attacks, rather than 4. Your testing method is inherently unfair because you use a frontloaded rotation, then cut off the remaining 2.5 seconds to allow DoTs to tick.

I am insulting you because logic apparently doesn't work. You again, fail to address any of my actual points, and suggest doing some more testing, which we've already known to be incredibly inaccurate, even more so because there isn't really a reliable parser for DoT damage. So no, I'm not going to spend 10 hours testing this theory rigorously. So, what exactly can I do to convince you?

Going by your "last sentence" you really shouldn't have posted anything at all. Every one of your posts is riddled with inaccuracies and fallacies, and I don't really know why you can't accept that this way simply isn't optimal.

Please answer the questions I had in my last post.

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Originally Posted by gotaplanstan

Second, regarding the 0.825 potency difference, that's only assuming one of the available ticks proc BL. Whereas the rotation I mentioned does not rely on that, and still out performs it even if it does, even if it is by a fractional margin.

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No, if you read your first post, you clearly calculated the probability of BL proccing, as you did not add the full "150 potency attack" to the rotation. So you already accounted for that, choosing the average case, which is, correct.

So using your own math, with the correction which you admitted is correct, your SS damage comes out to be (((140 * 1.5) * 0.2) + 140*.8) = 154.

Which means your total rotation, again, using entirely your own math, does 534 potency, compared to the standard way, which you have accounted for a possible BL proc by using the average case, which does 561.175 potency.

So again, using your own method, you are still wrong. There is no way to spin this to make yourself correct, unless you use the unfair method of comparing frontloaded damage vs dot damage by chopping off 2.5 seconds of the dps timeframe.

Please address these points in your rebuttal.

7. Why we should use 7.5 seconds instead of 10.0 seconds for DPS calculations when we have both done 4 attacks.
29. Why you subtracted 240 potency for 2 DoT ticks.
80. What your calculations for average crit chance should be, which lowers the effectiveness of the SS proc. I used ~500 crit, with lower gear it should be closer to 450 crit, or ~12-15% chance.
-3. What your calculated extra BL chance would be accounting for base crit.

Thank you.

I've only skimmed through the 'analysis', but it occurs to me that there's only a few relevant factors to consider:

1. You want buffs up when you DOT.
2. You want to allow the option to re-apply your DOTs with the buffs still up / before they expire.

The whole discussion centering on how awesome/not awesome the 20% chance of a SS autocrit seems moot when you should be considering how badly you want the DOTs up early so you can clip them less later -- or if that even matters much (which it may not).

At a minimum you want IR up before applying the first set of DOTs, and you want to re-apply them before IR expires. That basically bounds your "FIRST 30 SECONDS" discussion.

The only thing you want up before your DOTs is SS. So at a minimum you want:
SS - IR
WB
VB
[....]
WB
VB - IR_expires

You basically have 4* GCDs in between the DOT sets may not be sufficient to get all your relevant buffs up as well as throw down the fire AOE before for the second DOT set. You'll generally want to burn 1 BL early, and may get a proc for another, or two. The net result is that you have a lot of OGCDs to burn in the first 20-odd seconds and you may not have enough GCDs between which to actually use them.

Starting off with an HS could be useful simply to give enough time to get all your buffs up.


* Probably 5 GCDs of attacks if you have >0 skill speed by any measurable degree.

What you say is true, however, there are other factors here.

Of the two rotations I mentioned (not the HS one, I mean the to IR or not to IR one), the main difference is...

More cooldown stacking in way 2 (no IR for first DoTs) vs IR for first dots + possible BL procs.

I haven't had time to figure out which one is better, also keep in mind BL procs push back your CD's, further complicating how well you can stack them.

Granted stacking them does not really matter, except for having them all up for all of Barrage.

Is losing IR for barrage worth having IR up for 3 more ticks of DoTs/BL? Someone will have to check if so. Again the difference is small, but obviously as we're trying to optimize it is a point to consider.

I prefer the second simply because since it is easier to stack cooldowns, and all of them are up for Barrage.

Furthermore with the first rotation, I don't know if it is worth the wasted GCDs (which could be HS) to reapply dots as IR expires.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Furthermore with the first rotation, I don't know if it is worth the wasted GCDs (which could be HS) to reapply dots as IR expires.

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On that topic, the benefit of using HS within the IR+BFB timeframe is 2x 150*(.5*.2) + 2x 150*.2 = 30 + 60 = 90p. In the alternate scenario, you'd just use the same two HSs a few GCDs later, so you're only gaining the benefit of the buffs on HS. The 20% chance to crit on the two HSs also increases the chance for an autocrit SS. The maximum value for this is roughly 0.5*140*1.2 = 84 and this scenario grants a (1-.8*.8)*.75 = 27% chance for the event, so 84 * .27 = 23 potency.

In the alternate scenario, you clip roughly 2 ticks of each DOT in a worst-case, meaning you get a clip cost of (35*2) * (1+.5*.45) + (45*2)*(1+.5*.45)*1.2 = 216 potency, although it could be less due to the server timing on DOTs.


Total costs (max): 90 + 23 + 216 = 329


The benefit is that you get IR applied to both the next WB/VB and 1 additional buff [BFB] applied to one.

The IR is worth roughly: (640)*.2*.5*1.2*1.2 = 92

The BFB is worth roughly: (310)*(1+.5*.45))*1.2 = 91

You gain the additional benefit of 20% crit for BL procs, which equates to vaguely:

12 opportunities of 45% chance to crit with a 50% result of +150 base potency
minus
12 opportunities of 25% chance to crit with the same result

Let's call the BLs 150/2 * (1.2)*(1+.5*.25) = 101

The alternate scenario BL application is 12 * .45 * 101 minus the null scenario BL at 12 * .25 * 101. So 242 more BL damage.

Total benefits (max): 92 + 91 + 242 = 425

Note: the actual benefit will be less than 425 because you don't get the true benefit of more BL procs because BLs are generally restricted to 1 per OGCD.

Still, I think it's a good case for re-applying the DOTs prior to the IR expiration.

On my OP bard I do Quelling > Hawk's eye > Skill > Raging Strikes > Skill > Blood for Blood > Skill > Internal Release > Skill > Barrage

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

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I'm not arguing anything. Since just #'s seem to be beyond you, I'll try adding words:

1. If you open a 4 pt sequence with 2.5s between atks, the first atk (SS) happens at the 0.0s mark. 2.5 seconds later, VB occurs. 2.5 seconds after that your second dot occurs, which is VB. So far if we do simple math, 2.5+2.5 = 5. So VB happens at the 5.0s mark of the sequence. Finally, you use HS. You guessed it, 2.5s after VB. So lets recap. 2.5+2.5+2.5 is equal to 10, or 7.5?
2. 240? hmmm, let's take a look shall we? You're claiming 561.175-403.625=240. For me it doesn't, so again your math is bad/wrong.
3. If you have a source for how much XXX crit rating is worth, that kind of information (or a link to it) WOULD be very useful to share.
5. Going with the whole bad math thing, you chose to skip poor #4. Fine. Again, if you'd care to share the formula for crit rating to % I would be more than happy to post some calculations.

You don't seem to understand the concept of GCD.

Lets do an extremely simple case.

1 attack, we use HS.

How much dps does the HS do?

Furthermore, at 7.5 seconds, the last HS does 0 damage. Similarly, the last VB doesn't actually apply or do damage. Are you going to count that against the standard rotation too?

If you've ever actually played a Bard, you know HS hits somewhere between 1 second and 2 seconds after you actually hit the button.

So whats it going to be? Are you going to cut off at arbitrary start of actions, or are you going to cut off at precisely when HS hits and nothing else (at around 8.5-9.5 seconds) to be "fair", or are you going to actually go by the amount of GCDs consumed?

Actually you know what, too many questions for you to answer.

Just answer me this.

What is the pps of 1 attack, 1 HS, and how do you calculate it.

We can get into the other discussions later. I'm sorry I mislabeled my list, I'll go and fix it. This clearly implies an inability for doing math.

As for the crit calculations, you can go here: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id...riticalHitRate

I did not read EVERY post so I apologize if this was mentioned previously.
I tend to view it more on the cool downs themselves. and which will go with what, when. This of course has to do with 'fresh' encounters, with all cool downs ready that lasts more than 2min. This is what I am curious about. The few seconds and in what optimal order to begin with is nice to know, of course.
IR= 60
BfB=80
BA= 90
HE= 90
RS= 120

IR will be with BA&HE on its 1st click, and 4th.
IR will be with RS on the 1st and 5th.
IR will be with BfB on the 1st and 5th.
BA&HE always together
IR up twice as much as RS
BfB used once in between it cycling again at the 4th min.

It keeps going but you get the idea.
(please forgive me if any of the simple maths is incorrect)

The differences are so marginal. The only rules you need to follow:

1) Have IR active before applying dots
2) Weave skills between GCD

Easy. There are so many factors in end game that the rest of this shit you guys are arguing about won't matter. Bards are steaky as shit anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

snip

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I'm not the one having trouble understanding that if played properly, 4 skills will have been used in ~7.5 seconds. There's not much as this point that I (or anyone else) can seem to say to help you grasp this BASIC concept of how this game works.

As far as you thinking there's a delay, there's not. Not technically. The damage is applied instantly, and just because it takes a second to register in the floating #'s does not change that fact.

It seems there's quite a few things game mechanics wise that you simply don't understand. So I'm a bit confused why you're coming here acting like a know-it-all when you don't even understand such simple concepts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by delaSO

snip

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This type of planning (boss duration wise) is what I touched on a few posts ago. The most ideal opening rotation in terms long term (I used 3 minutes) that I could find when experimenting on mlvl 50 dummies was this:

durations:

ir = 15.0s
bfb = 20.0s
he = 20.0s
ba = 10.0s
rs = 20.0s
qs = 15.0s

[HS | RS] ─► [SS | IR] ─► [WB | BfB] ─► [VB | HE] ─► [HS | Ba] ─► [HS/SS | BL] ─► [HS/SS | QS]

that gives us this for time occuring:

hs = 0.0s
rs = 1.0s ─► 21.0s + 141.0s ─► 161.0s
ss = 2.5s
ir = 3.5s ─► 18.5s + 78.5s ─► 93.5s + 153.5s ─► 168.5s
wb = 5.0s
bfb = 6.0s ─► 26.0s + 106.0s ─► 126.0s
vb = 7.5s
he = 8.5s ─► 28.5s + 118.5s ─► 138.5s
hs = 10.0s
ba = 11.0s ─► 21.0s + 111.0s ─► 121.0s
hs/ss = 12.5s
bl = 13.5s
hs/ss = 15.0s
qs = 16.0s ─► 31.0s + 151.0s ─► 166.0s

(sorry for triple post, but 2nd one couldn't fit this info in it XD)
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As you can see, the only cd not 100% active for Barrage's first duration is IR, and it still has 75% uptime during it. After that BfB and HE both pair of up with Barrage's second cycle, while RS's 2nd and IR's 3rd pair up with QS's 2nd as well.

That was what I had the best parser results with. I tried 7 different combinations, including ones discussed ITT and this one came out in the lead. I can only assume because of the cd uptimes during both Barrages.