Subtle Hints: Red Mage

This is something I've noticed with the release of A Realm Reborn and it seemed just coincidental at first but seeing the skills Thaumaturge lost, the Conjurer gained, the rumours that a third class might be required later for jobs, and finally mobs using a few key skills that Red Mage might be coming.

Now hear me out, it may seem like there are other classes that would come first but Red Mage seems like it's a prime candidate to come into play before many others.

Let's start by analyzing the Thaumaturge. In 1.0 Thaumaturge had many more skills but some should stick out like a sore thumb to former Final Fantasy XI players as being key staples of the Red Mage. These include...

Dia
Sacrifice
Poison
Bio
Stygian Spikes
Auto-Refresh
Ressurect
Gravity
Aero
Stone
Bind
Silence
Slow
Paralyze
Blind

What do all these skills have to do with Red Mage you might ask? All of them are in some form staples established in Final Fantasy XI (Dia being their starting skill.)

Now what about Conjurer? They lost and gained many changing their entire class structure but we're only focusing on the primary ones taken from the class.

Fire
Blizzard
Thunder
Water
Shell
Auto-Refresh
Fastcast
Sleep
Shock Spikes

Again the spells removed and shifted to other classes are all staples of the Red Mage.

So what does this have to do with a possible third class? Quite a bit.

The clincher is the Primals and their followers. Those who have played 1.0 and now A Realm Reborn will notice that while the followers were in 1.0, before they did not use enhancing Enhancing Magic. For those unsure what that means, in Final Fantasy XI enhancing magic was a skill set exclusive to the Red Mage (at least at start) that included Enstone, Enfire, Enaero, Enblizzard, Enwater, and Enthunder which would add elemental damage to the Red Mage's melee attacks.

Taken altogether almost every single spell from the Red Mage's arsenal is now in the game or in the coding and dormant thus the rumour of a possible third class would fully make sense were Red Mage to be introduced as Conjurer, Thaumaturge, and Gladiator (Or Arcanist even though highly unlikely as Red Mage's are sword users).

These are just my observations, feel free to interject any thoughts you might have.

You know... if you just edit your first post you can bypass the character limit and get all of your stuff into one post.

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Originally Posted by Sub-Xero

You know... if you just edit your first post you can bypass the character limit and get all of your stuff into one post.

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I was just about to say this.

Before the Redmage we are going to get a second Archer class because there is 2 of everything beside of the Archer

Second ranged is already in the coding as well, it's called Musketeer. There's a Musketeer Guild in Limsa Lominsa as well, Merlwyb is the leader.

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Originally Posted by Escad

Before the Redmage we are going to get a second Archer class because there is 2 of everything beside of the Archer

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2 of everything besides archer?

What? More competition for debuff slot?!

They need enhance the combat system first before introduce more class.

Arcanist = Red Mage of XIV

@OP: Those spells were part of a crapton of other abilities that existed in the game before the class revampt that took place after Yoshida was given control over the game.

I wouldn't take those as hints to RDM but rather hints on combat systems and the original armoury system. If you want to see what the original armoury could have achieved, you need not look further than The Secret World, a game that uses the exact same system but with the element of decks. Decks are pretty much class names your character gets based on abilities they set in their action bars (like if you want to be labeled a witch hunter you needed specific abilities set and you'd earn the label as well as a small bonus to the abilities involved).

I have a feeling Tanaka's FFXIV was aiming at something similar. Set certain abilities/spells in your action bar and you'd be a Black Mage, or a White Mage and so on. It would make sense given the abilities in-game as well as the sheer number of jobs in the FF IP, and would also explain why the base classes were not named after the jobs to begin with.

Don't hate me for this, but if red mage is gonna be what it was in FFXI then leave it out. That is not a Red Mage. that is some awkward buff/debuff role. FF1 first identified the Red Mage as a Duelist that can use White and Black magic, but does not excel at using any of them, meaning it was by no means the best at any trait. The fact that it could use everything was a force to be reckoned with though. It has been that way in every FF and FFXI was the first, and only, FF game to take the whole whole debuff/buff approach. That type of role would not fit in this MMO style at all. What they should honestly do is go back to what they where. They could have chance of proc abilities where they have a chance to get a free heal to throw on a team member or after doing a combo they get a instant spell cast off GCD or on GCD whatever works. Just make them the melee fighters they are and make magic in their main rotation. I just miss ACTUAL Red Mages.

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Originally Posted by ForteXX

2 of everything besides archer?

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Two nuking mages: BLM & SMN
Two healing mages: WHM & SCH
Two melee DPS: MNK & DRG
Two tanks: PLD & WAR
But only one ranged physical DPS.

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Originally Posted by ForteXX

2 of everything besides archer?

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2 magic dps, 2 melee tanks, 2 melee dps, 2 healers, 1 archer.

I loved the red mages in Tactics Advance, that double cast summoning was sweet.

if they added RDM, they couldnt give them enareo en blizzard enfire ect.. it would be useless... theres no elemental weaknesses. Your just going to enfire your weapon for show? a little bit extra dmg when swinging? it would be useless the way ARR is setup.

The red mage was originaly not a buff/debuff class. The earlier incarnations of it were a cool versatile class that would become more an more useless as the game progresses. It's staple wasn't having good debuff skill, or having specific spells like dia or refresh, but the fact of having access to some white and some black magic as well as being proficient with a sword. The only skill red mage really always had is multicast (doublecast, x-spell etc). Everything else is what RDM was in XI - not saying that it was bad there (I played one and love all of it), but that it should be, imo, done differently here.

Also, you had en- spells used by enemies in 1.0 as well.

To be honest, I'm not sure how the can even implement it with the current system. What would it's role be? Tank? Well no. But what then? Healer? Damage dealer? It should be a balance of the two utilising both magic and melee with healing abilities.

they might aswell add Musketeer as a starting class and let Redmage be the Job for it...
i was never too fond of the whole melee/fencing thing with RM anyway, so i kinda like the idea.

Everybody talks about Red Mage, samurai, ninja and even blue mage, but everybody is forgeting one job that was really fun to play, Thief.

Come on SE, give us RDM. It baffles me that it isn't already in the game, given that it's a staple Final Fantasy job.

It isn't a matter of IF there will be a Red Mage in FF14. It's just a matter of WHEN.

SqEnx has a great library of icon jobs to draw from. They know fan favorites like Red Mage and Musketeer are highly anticipated. We'll see them in the game eventually (and the job system will make a lot more sense, at that point, when most classes have multiple jobs to branch into).

You forgot the other spells removed from THM, we had those really awesome absorb spells. It was like absord-str dex int mnd etc. All were DRK skills in FFXI, but in 1.0 they were really awesome for cross class use. You could be a tank (before jobs existed) you could absorb all of these useful skills, then you could transfer them to another player in your group. That was really a fun aspect of those skills. idk why but it was fun. I wish they could of expanded a little bit on those types of unique cross class inventive skills. Idk if those spells will make it back into the game, if they do it will likely go to DRK if that job ever comes. It's not something I'm particularly looking forward to. I'd love to do RDM again, but if they do bring it, I want it to be more unique in XIV, i don't want it to be a clone from XI.(I'll admit I was one of those RDM addicts, that loved Duel-wielding and running around /nin kicking everythings arse)

all the hints iv been getting are Bacon Mage......culinary guild wont shut up about it...

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Originally Posted by rtpsoulx

if they added RDM, they couldnt give them enareo en blizzard enfire ect.. it would be useless... theres no elemental weaknesses. Your just going to enfire your weapon for show? a little bit extra dmg when swinging? it would be useless the way ARR is setup.

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It would have an effect in PvP. MNK can change their physical attacks to earth/wind/fire element so your argument is already flawed.

Edit for 1k chrs:
From reading OP it looks like OP is pointing this RDM to be a debuffer role with paralyze/blind/bind etc. I really don't want to see that for RDM this time. It should be able to be a melee mage again.

If it's going to have debuffs they should come from weaponskills similar to the Spellblade class in FFTA/2.

With those attacks to add debuffs stemming from maybe a Fencer class we could then get RDM using THM/CNJ abilities for cross classables. The 5 job specific abilities for RDM could be something like:

1. Ability to make the next casted spell cast twice.
2. Ability to make the next casted spell change your physical attacks element for a time.
3. Spell to reduce monster magic resistance.
4. Attack to inflict a decent DoT.
5. Ability to swap STR/DEX values for INT/MND values.

Jobs are 5 skills, and you need a base class from them. There are only 4 classes at this time which could become a Red Mage at all due to the need for competent melee: PGL, LNC, MRD, GLA. Of them, only GLA has a traditional Red Mage weapon, and it's the tankiest of the tanks.

-PGL, extending into MNK, already has effective -en self-buffs, which kinda works if you include that one-off role from FF11.. This would be some kind of toe-stepping if you tried to extend that. Not to mention breaking Greased Lightning and ruining DPS.
-LNC... well, why bother? It's a no-downtime DPS. The need to maintain positional abilities for keeping DPS up would result in immense frustration, unlike BRD's any-place-any-time approach.
-MRD is amusingly the most feasible of Red Mages, simply because you can use the off-berserk time for spells. As Maim is not position-specific, you can afford to keep it up, unlike Heavy Thrust. The biggest obstacles here are the horrible lack of PIE and the lack of skill slots inherent in jobs.
-GLA, the consummate tank, has pretty much no synergy with a Red Mage skillset. It actively has 8 tank-specific skills: Rampart, Flash, Convalesce, Provoke, Shield Swipe, Awareness, Sentinel, and Bulwark. 8/17 skills are pretty much totally useless to a Red Mage, and many others are likely to be dubious as well (Shield Lob unless you offer no attack spells, Shield Bash, Tempered Will). You're left with just barebones utility: 4 direct attack skills, 1 AoE attack skill, one damage buff. Not a pretty picture.

Finally, you have 5 abilities. Choosing any of these will not avoid this problem. If you want a role as diverse as a Red Mage, you have to reflect that in 5 skills. Red Mage is a jack of all trades -- and fitting "all trades" in 5 skills isn't pretty. You have to completely club a Red Mage's skill set, making it little more than a Red Mage in name only.

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Originally Posted by IMStarbuck

What? More competition for debuff slot?!

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Now let's be clear about debuffers. You have two options: class and job. There will be no debuffer class unless that class can offload its DPS onto a pet. This is because a debuffer class would be overpowered in a party or gimped solo, and that defeats the purpose of classes. Debuffing has to be a job, and for the reasons previously described, I find it intensely unlikely that a Red Mage will show up with current classes.

That said, you're missing the point: FF11 is the only title where Red Mage had that role. Once and only once. Jack-of-all-trades in 1, total crap in 3 but same role as 1, doublecast nuker in 5, greatsword-wielding bearer of the most powerful attack spell in 12i. Given that FF11's RDM was such an abortion to begin with, it's not worth bringing Red Mage to FF14 at all if you're going to turn it into that trash.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

If it's going to have debuffs they should come from weaponskills similar to the Spellblade class in FFTA/2

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That's a Mystic Knight archetype. They actually have a really cool traditional look as well, and certainly could make an excellent job for a dedicated class (e.g. Fencer -> Mystic Knight & Red Mage).

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Originally Posted by Conradus

But only one ranged physical DPS.

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Musketeer for the win. My optimism and desire to dual wield guns as a tiny Lalafell in a pirate hat tell me that Musketeer will come before anything else.

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Originally Posted by Conradus

Two nuking mages: BLM & SMN
Two healing mages: WHM & SCH
Two melee DPS: MNK & DRG
Two tanks: PLD & WAR
But only one ranged physical DPS.

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Ya, I was thinking he was saying the jobs, due to how he worded it.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

That's a Mystic Knight archetype. They actually have a really cool traditional look as well, and certainly could make an excellent job for a dedicated class (e.g. Fencer -> Mystic Knight & Red Mage).

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I actually had a FNC > MST/RDM idea on my PC. Just posted it here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...27#post1316727 If you'd like to see it. Funny, great minds thnk alike? :D

FFXI had a Blue mage, right? how did THAT work?

Blue Mage worked by basically being a hybrid Melee and Caster. It learned mob spells at random by farming enemies and when the move was used you basically had to kill it and cross your fingers. Once learned you can then equip the spell for use and you had a limited amount of spell slots and a total amount of spell points and each spell had points attributed to it.

Blue Mage was the only job not to have any traits learned through level up and instead created traits through different spell combinations equipped so even though a spell may be lack luster at later levels if it contributed towards a trait it was still useful. Blue Mage also had its own versions of spells ranging from heals (both cure bombs and HoT) Nukes of varying elements and buffs like stoneskin haste and blink (a spell mechanic in XI that generated shadows that were consumed upon being hit and therefore allowing it to take the hit rather than you) but it's greatest spells were physical spells which while given MP costs dealt physical damage of various properties (blunt slashing piercing) and had properties like being multi hits or dealing a poison effect or even acting as a AoE cleave attack.

Late in the game's life they were allowed to learn Notorious Monster moves (boss moves) such as a Behemoth's Thunderbolt which was a wide range AoE thunder nuke with a stun effect or a Vampire's Bloodrake (hard hitting 100% damage dealt absorption). They were also given a merit weaponskill along with the other sword classes that was calculated using physical damage equations but dealt Non Elemental Magic Damage.

It was one of my favorite classes in that game and while it would be hard pressed to carry over the spell system it used I hope they figure out a way to bring it back in spirit but at the very least I hope they keep the Middle Eastern motif the class had going on. It gave a job that was about mimicking enemy signature moves some identity of its own especially since earlier portrayals ranged from a cape and a domino mask to Quistis from FFVIII and Quina from FFIX.