Overpowered Classes?

Just a thought I had. Why are so many people up in arms about one class being overpowered over another?

Aside from “class stacking” why would anyone call for a nerf of a class that deals damage or heals better then another? :confused:

Can people really complain about something being OP in a PVE game?
Is that possible?

I think people are psychologically programmed to call for nerf and cry about OP classes even without realizing that currently FFXIV is just a PVE game. I think people just need to pop some pills and hold on to their urges till PVP part of the game is released.

Because some class provide too much benefits and give less interest in having other class which will eventually lead to other class being no longer admitted in groups.

This is the case for :
- Bard vs other dps. Bard got everything , burst dps, high dps on long fight, no movement penalty, group utility with songs.
- Paladin vs Warrior. In this case it is more the warrior being underpowered but the result is the same. Warrior are less viable for end game. They cannot MT coil, yet paladin can do both MT and Off tank.

well it may be a pve game but it still requires party use in the end and if a class is alot better then why use it? when i can simple stack the best 1 or 2 damage classes and forget the rest.

Bards don't have the aoe limit break or the single target lb of the melee. Resultantly, you're gonna diversify some if for no other reason than limit breaks :D

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Originally Posted by iPlayBad

Can people really complain about something being OP in a PVE game?
Is that possible?

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When the game is party-dependent and you aren't getting any parties because everybody wants the OP class in their party, yes, they can.

PVE and class stacking .. I really dont see it as being an issue. I parse everything i do just for my own personal improvement, I also use it to ask others what they are doing to generate their numbers. I have come across many cases where competent dragoons and Monks out strip my bard by 10 to 15k even when I don't sing a single song.

I wont deny that Bard have it a bit easier as far as movement... But does that mean they are overpowered or just a little more flexible.

As far as tanks go.. lets be honest some tanks are built for longer fights and some are not. This is not something that is new

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Originally Posted by Conradus

When the game is party-dependent and you aren't getting any parties because everybody wants the OP class in their party, yes, they can.

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So roll the op class? 'Specially since you don't have to start over (as in remaking your char =T) It's PVE for pete's sake. Find some friends, play with them.

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Originally Posted by RoosterAgathos

Just a thought I had. Why are so many people up in arms about one class being overpowered over another?

Aside from “class stacking” why would anyone call for a nerf of a class that deals damage or heals better then another? :confused:

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That's the point, other classes get left out.

1) If you have a choice between a Warrior or Paladin, you choose the Paladin.
2) If you have a choice between a BLM or Monk, you choose the BLM.
3) If you have a choice between a WHM or Scholar, you chose the WHM.

I haven't heard anyone asking for a "nerf" but I have seen lots of posts asking for buffs to make their classes more viable at endgame. Which is good. (usually)

Balance of classes has been and always will be an MMO issue. The people that play the stronger classes scream and yell at everyone because they like being at the top. Those below them scream and yell because they don't get picked for the groups. Everyone wants to be the hero, no one wants to be left behind.

I'm not the biggest fan of "nerfing" and prefer to see them add utility or buff classes that are lacking. Issue with that is, if you buff classes to much it forces mechanics into raid bosses that just are not fun. While it sucks, nerfs tend to be the better choice.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

well it may be a pve game but it still requires party use in the end and if a class is alot better then why use it? when i can simple stack the best 1 or 2 damage classes and forget the rest.

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Yeah... but why hurt a class that ultimately helps the GROUP.. lol I have seen good people in all classes just saying. Its all on the player

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Originally Posted by iPlayBad

Can people really complain about something being OP in a PVE game?
Is that possible?

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Suggesting balance doesn't matter in a co-op game makes no sense at all. Of course it's possible.

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Originally Posted by EmeraldSerenade

That's the point, other classes get left out.

1) If you have a choice between a Warrior or Paladin, you choose the Paladin.
2) If you have a choice between a BLM or Monk, you choose the BLM.
3) If you have a choice between a WHM or Scholar, you chose the WHM.

I haven't heard anyone asking for a "nerf" but I have seen lots of posts asking for buffs to make their classes more viable at endgame. Which is good. (usually)

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Beyond the tank setting (i.e., 1) for titan and coil i would disagree with everything said here.
WAR is fine to tank anything but for a few instances and the difference between PLD and WAR for story/4man is so more in player skill (PLD is easier to play so pug you go to pld for higher chance a better tank due to it being easier to play)

when it comes to DPS classes, some are simple and easier to play with less movement needed (BRD, BLM) than others which need to keep up the rotation (MNK, DRG) and this leads to a bias to the easier ones as when you dont know the player the easier class is goign to more consistently be a better dps.

Healers, its the fact that SCH does so much for the party that is not visible in the parser that has lead to this WHM are better since people look just at those numbers and nothing more. 4man, either is perfectly fine, 8man 1 of each is really best, although 2x of either works fine also.

There WILL be pvp, ya know.

I don't understand how people can rage about OP jobs. Why don't we just 86 all dps other than BRD? Let's do away with WAR as well we won't need it since it takes more dmg than PLD. Trash SCH too. Oh wait tho there can be different builds for each job? Better let every class only use one set of gear as to not topple the OP stat structure. Please lol.

Everyone has there role, and you job is only as powerful as you make it. There is more to being useful in a fight than straight dps.

lol this game is designed so class stacking is not necessary at all. If your players are competent you can do a wide variety of whatever jobs you want and be perfectly fine in any dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Atrious

Yeah... but why hurt a class that ultimately helps the GROUP..

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Because it doesn't matter how much the class helps the group if you don't get to be *in* the group because all the slots are taken by the class.

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Originally Posted by Gohlar

Suggesting balance doesn't matter in a co-op game makes no sense at all. Of course it's possible.

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Co- Op? Oh you mean those craptastic dungeons. All people want for those is for you not to be under geared. They don't care if your class is labeled "OP" if you're in all whites, they don't want you.

"Ermehgerd he burned a mob down faster than me" It's a mob, who cares.

Honestly i may have to stop playing the game if they were to nerf any class. Most people bitching about the classes needing nerf is because they dont know how to use the class properly to make it an effective class. I have run many many dungeons, some where an archer out ranks me in damage because he's fully attune to it or has all of his supporting abilities, which I do not. The I'll run it with a different bard, with a complete 180, same or identical gear, horrible damage/dps etc. Its not the classes fault, its the people who don't know how to use them properly.

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Originally Posted by RoosterAgathos

many cases where competent dragoons and Monks out strip my bard by 10 to 15k even when I don't sing a single song.

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Sorry to break it to you but you must be doing it wrong

Are some of you really this daft to not realize that PVE also has competition? The most obvious is the competition to get a spot in organized groups for end game content. When there are options, organized groups will bring the most optimal classes. If one dps/ tank/healer significantly out shines another, the UP class will not be included.

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Originally Posted by RoosterAgathos

Just a thought I had. Why are so many people up in arms about one class being overpowered over another?

Aside from “class stacking” why would anyone call for a nerf of a class that deals damage or heals better then another? :confused:

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It's an MMO, some people think success in an MMO says something about them as people and God forbid that something is other that "I'm uber". Some elitist raiders demand 'efficiency' over everything and the min/maxers come up with the 'required' class build to be just that: efficient.

So, someone whose in a raiding shell/FC run by min/maxers lives in fear their class isn't the one that's OP because they may lose their raid slot.

Pure and simple this is all it comes down to: fear of becoming un-irreplaceable in a raid.

Well, I have war which is almost 40 and if you gear it right and get good upgrades you can perform just as good as the pld, because I have done just as good as a pld. Its about how you do your combos in succession to get massive hate generation. I can bust off chains and combos so fast that the pld is like "good lord man, I can't even get hate!"

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Originally Posted by KogaDrake

Stuff

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For endgame, everything I said is accurate.

I'm not going to spoonfeed you links, just look at the class roll forums or play one of the underpowered classes yourself, Mr. Bard.

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Originally Posted by ChrysaorUSon

Well, I have war which is almost 40 and if you gear it right and get good upgrades you can perform just as good as the pld, because I have done just as good as a pld. Its about how you do your combos in succession to get massive hate generation. I can bust off chains and combos so fast that the pld is like "good lord man, I can't even get hate!"

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Its not all about your hate generation, its about who, in the end, is easier to heal and takes the least amount of damage. That would be paladin.

Taking AK for one simple instance, I have to Cure bomb warriors, paladins I can just cast Aquildon every so often :/

Yeah these ppl have an overrated self conscioussness to be the best, but your going to fail and fall. Everyone does eventually, so they need to get over themselves. They call themselves elitist, but there will always be someone better than you I promise you this. Play the game to have fun, and dun play it like its your damn job. I've solo almost everything up till lvl 40 so that tells you right there I am not an elitist, i know know wth I'm doing, and dun rely on parties that much.

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Originally Posted by ChrysaorUSon

Well, I have war which is almost 40 and if you gear it right and get good upgrades you can perform just as good as the pld, because I have done just as good as a pld. Its about how you do your combos in succession to get massive hate generation. I can bust off chains and combos so fast that the pld is like "good lord man, I can't even get hate!"

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Sorry but you have not witness end game content yet.
WAR dies in 1 round in coil.

-20% dmg (PLD) > +15% heal (WAR). Add to that Paladin got a lot defensive buff + block.
It doesn't take a genius to see how bad WAR is. It would be fine if WAR was the only able to off tank but that's not the case. PLD can off tank (slightly less efficient) but they can do it.

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Originally Posted by ChrysaorUSon

Well, I have war which is almost 40 and if you gear it right and get good upgrades you can perform just as good as the pld, because I have done just as good as a pld. Its about how you do your combos in succession to get massive hate generation. I can bust off chains and combos so fast that the pld is like "good lord man, I can't even get hate!"

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Yea, get to endgame first.

Don't bring PvP into it for the love of FSG. PvP should be isolated and have a completely different balance that comes into effect for that and only that. Balancing the game around PvE and PvP simultaneously in one harmonized configuration is impossible and causes an endless spiral of bad decisions. Balance for PvE. Balance for PvP. Find a way to switch between the two, perhaps only while you're in the PvP arena or w/e certain buffs & debuffs activate that have the effect of re-balancing your particular class. The two should never mix, it's a recipe that only leads to shit stew.

Summoners currently hold the spot as #1 DPS (this is on fights when their DoTs are allowed to tick more than 10-15s like boss encounters) in single target. No one comes close. They hold it as high as 20-30% ahead of other's. I think they are doing roughly 280-320 DPS with Relic Weapon and Darklight gear. They might be toned down as no class can even come remotely close to them.

That to me is the overpowered class.

I'm not looking forward to SE wasting time and resources on PvP so 5% of the playerbase can be happy.
Playing Final Fantasy games for PvP doesn't make sense in the first place.

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Originally Posted by neizero

Sorry to break it to you but you must be doing it wrong

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As constructive as your statement is.. Care to elaborate on your rotation is.. I love a good snarky remark on the forums and make a few my self but i ALWAYS back up my statements. Please feel free to do the same with yours.

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Originally Posted by Thotor

Because some class provide too much benefits and give less interest in having other class which will eventually lead to other class being no longer admitted in groups.

This is the case for :
- Bard vs other dps. Bard got everything , burst dps, high dps on long fight, no movement penalty, group utility with songs.
- Paladin vs Warrior. In this case it is more the warrior being underpowered but the result is the same. Warrior are less viable for end game. They cannot MT coil, yet paladin can do both MT and Off tank.

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I agree for the most part. My solutions.

Bard needs a fairly decent sized nerf in the way of tp usage. (Use more TP) Also, a very slight damage nerf. (Maybe just lower criticals)

Paladin is fine, although superior. Warrior is what needs a change and what I think would help is to lower the HP recovery skills recast and slight increase to damage recovered.

Also, I believe Monk needs a buff. I think if you double the speed gain of greased lightening to 10% a buff, (for a total of 30%) it would help tremendously. As of now, if falls behind in DPS unless it is a really long fight when the others start to fall off and since Monk does not.

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Originally Posted by OrganizationXIll

I agree for the most part. My solutions.

Bard needs a fairly decent sized nerf in the way of tp usage. (Use more TP) Also, a very slight damage nerf. (Maybe just lower criticals)

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What i think people fail to see is that other classes have situation uses. A lot of raids will have DPS checks and i am sure more are on the way... but if they start using DPS magic checks or require a timed single target limit break.. bard are out. and a new nerf will be called for because Job X is overpowered. Nerfing any class is only a disservice in the long run to everyone.

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Originally Posted by Thotor

Because some class provide too much benefits and give less interest in having other class which will eventually lead to other class being no longer admitted in groups.

This is the case for :
- Bard vs other dps. Bard got everything , burst dps, high dps on long fight, no movement penalty, group utility with songs.
- Paladin vs Warrior. In this case it is more the warrior being underpowered but the result is the same. Warrior are less viable for end game. They cannot MT coil, yet paladin can do both MT and Off tank.

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Bard does not have stun, bard does not have silence. I.e. doesn't have everything.

i dont think any classes are OP at the moment but i do think some classes are better in certain situations than others. the problem is theres more situations where class A is better than class B than there are where class B is better than class A.

At least in this game you can have the same classes on the same character. Now gearing them up is another issue, of course. But, yes, obviously as MMO's progress there will always be buffs and nerfs to classes. It's the nature of these games.


And I think, TC, that people have sufficiently, pointed out why people are calling out for the buffs/nerfs for the classes. They don't want their chosen classes to be left out of raid slots/groups. It sucks playing one of the 'underpowered' classes-and being forced to change your class just for a raid spot. But as I said before, such is the nature of MMO's...balance is an evergoing process and will never be 'perfect'.

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Originally Posted by HurtigeKarl

Bard does not have stun, bard does not have silence. I.e. doesn't have everything.

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Bard has silence. In fact, it is the main silencer for end game.
Stun are available on PLD as a anytime without CD so there is no need to have it on bard anyway.

If you really want to list what Bard lack compared to other DPS, it's the Limit Break. Either way it does not change the fact that bard provide too much compared to other dps.

Things being OP in a PVE game is of concern to people that are a class that is not OP. E.g. I'm a warrior and I've already experienced getting benched or skipped to do something because I don't have a stun on a short cooldown and I don't have as much mitigation as a paladin.

If people are the UP class like (Mnk) no one wants to take you when they can take 2 blm's instead.

I find melee to be underwhelming in general in this game and would prefer an AK run with 2 ranged dps over 2 melee dps any day of the week. It makes the wall easier and go quickly and the whole dungeon clears 40% faster with ranged dps.

Based on what I've seen,
Ranged is putting out more dmg than melee,
Pld's are the preferred tanks overall and warrior is kind of just there atm, they can do it but people would rather have a paladin making me second choice
and mnk is pretty up, or people don't know how to play it.