BLM vs Bard

So the highest damage output is between these two from my estimates, but I feel like bard has a much higher dps assuming equal gearing. How is this fair considering the bard can move around and attack with little to no "cast times" for his/her bard moves. The black mage sits in 1 spot and has long cast times (even with thundercloud/firestarter procs, it does not make up for lost time), and has significantly less dps than the bard?

How is this balanced?

Well everyone knows that bard does the most and knowing SE they will most likely tone them down. So relax. :)

I've tended to find BLM most welcome for sleep and our LB (shared with SMN of course, though they seem to be fairly rare themselves).

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Originally Posted by shinros

Well everyone knows that bard does the most and knowing SE they will most likely tone them down. So relax. :)

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I am just afraid of playing the class I find to be most fun also being a far inferior class. They could also just buff us to bard level. Anything that would equal the playing field.

bump for discussion

why is it bad that blm is 2nd place? i mean it sounds to me that mnk and drg need a rebalance not these two if they aren't even considered in the running.

Part of problem is that BRD was "re-balanced" at the last minute to go from primarily support to pew-pew.. if they're actually putting songs out and such it'll cut their damage by 20%.. but good luck finding BRDs that'll do so sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

why is it bad that blm is 2nd place? i mean it sounds to me that mnk and drg need a rebalance not these two if they aren't even considered in the running.

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Umm, can Black mage take damage like monk and drg can? dont think so... In any game, tradeoffs have to be taken into account. Black mage gets 1 shot by a sneeze, so in turn they should have at least equal damage to bard. You are missing the point. They are both ranged dps, and one should not have much faster cast times, be able to attack while moving AND do way more dps.

Cutting BRD's damage outright is not the answer, they need to give utility buffs to other DPS in the game (maybe TP song equivalent to DRG/MNK and MP song equivalent to SUM/BLM) and also add some type of "steady shot" to BRD in order to make sure they have some mechanics where they need to stand in one place.

the main..."strength" of the bard are:
- can use him skill while moving
- attack from far
- have infinite tp.

him damage alone are not that good, but it have all the good point of the caster and the melee.

about the drg tradeoff, they are at close range and have the worst magical defense (most of the attack hitting the drg are magical damage).
i think like sentinel, the skill of the bard must be rethink and he need to get some skill that make him stand a bit.

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Originally Posted by LeviathanElite

Umm, can Black mage take damage like monk and drg can? dont think so... In any game, tradeoffs have to be taken into account. Black mage gets 1 shot by a sneeze, so in turn they should have at least equal damage to bard. You are missing the point. They are both ranged dps, and one should not have much faster cast times, be able to attack while moving AND do way more dps.

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This has been debated to no end, ranged cannot take the damage that melee can but ranged are also ranged, so justifying higher DPS on ranged vs melee has no merit in a game where all the mobs are designed to hit the tank, now if this game had no tanks, you would have a point. So lets not try to give any class a DPS advantage, the point is, every class should have the same amount of advantages and disadvantages and the overall DPS at the end of the day, needs to be the same across all of em.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

the main..."strength" of the bard are:
- can use him skill while moving
- attack from far
- have infinite tp.

him damage alone are not that good, but it have all the good point of the caster and the melee.

about the drg tradeoff, they are at close range and have the worst magical defense (most of the attack hitting the drg are magical damage).
i think like sentinel, the skill of the bard must be rethink and he need to get some skill that make him stand a bit.

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How are people missing the point? The bard does all of those things ^ plus does way more damage than the other classes in the game even more than other ranged dps classes.

That is bad bad bad game design

I"m hoping they address this

I have an app that I use when we run dungeons, instances etc that give me very detailed info on the party, damage, dps, healing etc and the game is very well balanced when you can see the numbers. Average DPS for bard doing a full dungeon can range between (depending on the player) 56 to 80 dps. My BLM can range between 47 and 72 DPS, I've maxed out at 90. Nothing really needs to be nerfed. Where the bard excels in actually DPS, the BLM is built and has always been built for higher damage. Always right underneath the tank in damage, unless the tank is not doing his job. My last run with a bard they finished the dungeon with 82 DPS, 102K total damage throughout the dungeon and only took 22K worth of damage. My BLM was 71 DPS, 280K Total Damage, and i took 202K damage (i pulled aggro from tank) Tank did 480K of total damage, taking 306K worth of damage. Healer 0 DPS, healed 700K worth. Everything is balanced.

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

I have an app that I use when we run dungeons, instances etc that give me very detailed info on the party, damage, dps, healing etc and the game is very well balanced when you can see the numbers. Average DPS for bard doing a full dungeon can range between (depending on the player) 56 to 80 dps. My BLM can range between 47 and 72 DPS, I've maxed out at 90. Nothing really needs to be nerfed. Where the bard excels in actually DPS, the BLM is built and has always been built for higher damage. Always right underneath the tank in damage, unless the tank is not doing his job. My last run with a bard they finished the dungeon with 82 DPS, 102K total damage throughout the dungeon and only took 22K worth of damage. My BLM was 71 DPS, 280 Total Damage, and i took 202K damage (i pulled aggro from tank) Tank did 480K of total damage, taking 306K worth of damage. Healer 0 DPS, healed 700K worth. Everything is balanced.

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May I ask what this app is you are using?

Bard's damage gets reduced while singing, which is supposed to even everything out.

Granted, it's rarely required that a Bard be singing, but in some of the more hectic fights it can help. Mainly Ballad if the healer is running low on MP. I've only had to use Paeon in Aurum Vale during the Miser's Mistress fight after my own AoE spam. Requiem would be nice, but it's only elemental damage, so you need more than one mage to make it worth it.

Give Bard some more songs that are USEFUL for having up all the time and this wouldn't be a problem.

While that is a concern. The biggest issue I have with my BLM, is that the elemental spells don't seem to actually be elemental.

I sort of wanted to smash my head on my keyboard when i killed my first fire elemental.... with fire spells.

i said the same thing when i killed one amberion lol... i was like how the (explitive) does that work

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Originally Posted by Atrious

May I ask what this app is you are using?

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Pulled the app name just in case its against the TOS. not much is detailed about 3 party that pulls info so.

It's no different in FFXIV than it is in any other MMORPG. I've experienced it in Aion, TERA, etc; Mages will always be the high damage dummy class (no offence), but archer will always be more effective than mage if the person controlling it actually knows how to take the most out of it. I've seen plenty of derp per second bards in the few weeks I've been playing.

BLMS do more Dmg because they do not run out of MP meanwhile a BRD can run out of TP really fast without a way to get it back unless thee are 2 brds in a party.

Every class has their own niche. Just because another class does 0.1 more dps than you doesn't mean that people should pick them over your class. While tank classes are in debate, I can safely say that every dps and healing class is welcome in a party. There are only very specific times when people would want x over y, and if I can recall, it's black mages who are wanted the most for that content.

waaait a second...
someone is complaining because the class they play is only the SECOND MOST OP class?
oh booooy. I'm sorry.

It's simple, in fights where you can be static all the time like Anantaboga (Amdapor keep final boss), BLM is #1 DPS.

In fights where you have to be dodging all the time like Titan HM, Bard is #1 DPS.

For obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Geographer

Every class has their own niche. Just because another class does 0.1 more dps than you doesn't mean that people should pick them over your class. While tank classes are in debate, I can safely say that every dps and healing class is welcome in a party. There are only very specific times when people would want x over y, and if I can recall, it's black mages who are wanted the most for that content.

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It is a well known fact that BRDs are being stacked in raid groups, many are running with 3 BRDs in 8M raids. So it does become a cause for concern.

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Originally Posted by Sentinel

It is a well known fact that BRDs are being stacked in raid groups, many are running with 3 BRDs in 8M raids.

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I agree with you that this is a concern, but the problem with min/max groups is that they also come with cons. Think of it this way: if a raid group without 3 BRDs can do the content just fine, the min/max group would probably take longer to progress because there would be 3 of the same class you'd have to gear up, and drops only go to one or few people. Also IF content was designed to be completed with different class combinations, then this matter of 3 BRD is just a part of the lazy-sheep psychology that plagues every online game. If x is better, but y can still do the content more than competently, then why not do either?

I'm trying to make the point that class diversity is always better than the min/max side of things.

And let's not forget that Bards probably wouldn't have gotten past Ifrit HM smoothly without their friendly BLM/SMN. :p

Funny how when the game just came out 3 weeks ago, everyone was raging that Bards were the most underpowered because of the -20% dmg during songs. Now its completely flopped.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

why is it bad that blm is 2nd place? i mean it sounds to me that mnk and drg need a rebalance not these two if they aren't even considered in the running.

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In terms of PvE I see no issues, but when you think about how much DPS a bard does and how easy it is for them to move PvP becomes completely broken.

Yoshi's favourite class is BLM. He plays BLM. If BLM isn't top dps you can rest assured adjustments will be made sooner or later.

Imagine how Monks feel.

My solution for Black Mage is to let the procs STACK so you can shoot off more instant spells while running.

Either that or add 1 more proc to the table.

They also need to fix the terrible lag when it comes to the FIRE III proc because having to wait to see if it procs instead of quickly casting fire I will weaken your dps.

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Originally Posted by OrigamiElephant

Imagine how Monks feel.

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THIS 1000X TIMES

http://i.imgur.com/jgIzGmA.png

I agree that bards are a bit OP when I can take all the nice stuff from DRG and MNK and use it on my bard, can do 1K damage just from buffs. But then, my limit break is useless. Even if I can kite chimera and keep myself alive, my limit break would not even resurrect the rest of the party. They sort of broke the role when they shifted it from support, IMO

Bard can't do 1000 damage. Even with a critical misery's end, relic+, full darklight and every offensive buff it can have.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Bard can't do 1000 damage. Even with a critical misery's end, relic+, full darklight and every offensive buff it can have.

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True, but big numbers aren't everything anyway. In the end, BRD beats out BLM easily because of how fast they can dish out their smaller numbers (which stack up obscenely), particularly because of the River of blood trait. On BRD, stacking some crit rate and using crit rate food, I can spam Bloodletter ridiculously as it's CD resets every time a Windbite OR Venomous bite proc crits, and that thing is instant and has no TP cost at all. That trait, along with the ability to shoot while facing any direction at all and while running around at normal speed, makes BRD a rather broken job.

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Originally Posted by d4rkie

I agree that bards are a bit OP when I can take all the nice stuff from DRG and MNK and use it on my bard, can do 1K damage just from buffs. But then, my limit break is useless. Even if I can kite chimera and keep myself alive, my limit break would not even resurrect the rest of the party. They sort of broke the role when they shifted it from support, IMO

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People keep citing our limit break... TAKE IT AWAY I DONT CARE,

EITHER A) LET ME MOVE WHILE I CAST SPELLS OR B) INCREASE MY DAMAGE GREATLY

SO I DONT FEEL TERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIBLE about not picking bard :)

Bard's level 3 limit break does revive people. It's the same limit break as the healer's. 1 and 2 restore HP and 3 fully revives everyone.

Where did you get those estimates? I run with DRG MNK BRD BLM every week but the only one thats always the same is the DRG, and every week its the same. BLM > DRG > BRD > MNK

Yet every time our FC SMN tops in every 8 man. From what I see on a daily basis the list would be SMN > BLM > DRG > BRD > MNK. The only time I wouldn't take a good SMN over anything else is when a quick burn is involved as their burst dmg is garbage

If you are losing to a BRD as BLM it's either a gear issue or a skill issue. It's nothing to do with the class

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Bard can't do 1000 damage. Even with a critical misery's end, relic+, full darklight and every offensive buff it can have.

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sorry, I meant the sum during the offensive buffs from initial cooldown. at my current level I use 4 buffs that make the "windbite + blood letter + heavy shot + straight shot" deal ~1K damage in total. of course there's no way a bard can deal 1K in one shot

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Originally Posted by LeviathanElite

People keep citing our limit break... TAKE IT AWAY I DONT CARE,

EITHER A) LET ME MOVE WHILE I CAST SPELLS OR B) INCREASE MY DAMAGE GREATLY

SO I DONT FEEL TERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIBLE about not picking bard :)

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A) not gonna happen , u have swiftcast and instant cast spells

B) your dmg is fine , both single and aoe

C) go level bard , in FFXIV is easy to level since u dont have to redo all missions and are forced to create another character


ITT: offensive caster wanting to be top dps, what a surprise. 8)

and yeah i feel like SMN are doing the most dmg (not burst) , drg put high numbers aswell but there are battles that are melee unfriendly atm.