Alisaie and Nero (spoilers!)

So what is up with her? When she disagreed with Alphinaud and left, we never see her again? I need to rewatch that scene when I get on later to try to understand what they disagreed over, but I figured she would show up later in the game somehow. Of course, they could be saving that for future story.

Also, do you guys think Nero survived? My bet is yes.

Well, look forward to more Alisae is all I can say. As for Nero, he "escaped" so I'm sure we'll see more of him again.

Well, it seemed pretty obvious to me that Alisaie had a falling out with her brother simply because of his acceptance of the fact that the three nations had appeared to use the Battle of Carteneau memorial events as recruitment propaganda for the Grand Companies - "standard waving ceremonies" as she sarcastically termed it - which she angrily disagreed with, thinking they should have done more to remember the adventurers lost in the battle (ala, us), and of course, a certain elderly Archon who shall remain nameless. ;)

You will see her again as part of the quest leading up to the Binding Coils of Bahamut

from what I understand she wanted direct action unlike what her brother was going with more of tempered aproach, so I wouldnt be surprised to see her being minpulated into doing something which put her on crossroad, where you have to decided between her and her brother for the outcome. as for elderly Archon who is her grandfather she wanted him to be recognised as well as the "heroic" adventurers who turned the tide of battle for alliance.

But that's the thing - did we really do anything at all at Carteneau, seeing as how Dalamud's fall kind of brought the battle to an abrupt end anyway? Sure, we adventurers were quick to hear the call and rush to defend Eorzea from the Empire, but if Bahamut hadn't escaped from Dalamud and rained down fiery hell, would the Alliance have even stood a chance against the VIIth Legion? Was it all just a senseless waste of life?

After all it was stated time and again the Empire had conquered countries far more powerful than the Eorzean citystates so with just a motely group of adventurers doing the fighting (as powerful as we are), I don't think the Alliance would have came out on top in that regard if Bahamut's release hadn't completely wiped the Imperial forces out wholesale, making Alisaie's anger seem rather petty. At least her brother seems to understand just what a close-run affair it was, which is probably another reason for his more even-handed approach.

the adventurers' contribution was not merely partaking in carteneau, but the entire involvement in 1.0 i.e. slaying the primals, the white raven, the pilgrimage etc.... or at least that's what ibbelieve haha

well lets see, the adventurers kill the second general as soon as he arrived to front lines (a.k.a. White Raven) and pretty much disrupted the empires plans to for second conquest, so yea looking at the CS for the ending I would say they were doing better job of holding their end then rest of alliance, not only that we did beat the 2 primals and 3rd wanna be primal (moogle King) from doing anything drastic.

as for alise you meet her in Bahamut's Coil from what I understand, havent gotten that far but when I do I look forward to hearing of what happend 5yrs ago bitween the big guy and oldman, and why is it that big guy isnt around atm.

I hope she convinces you to betray Alphinaud and you have to kill him. I found the brother to be super annoying and would much rather side with the sister.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

But that's the thing - did we really do anything at all at Carteneau, seeing as how Dalamud's fall kind of brought the battle to an abrupt end anyway? Sure, we adventurers were quick to hear the call and rush to defend Eorzea from the Empire, but if Bahamut hadn't escaped from Dalamud and rained down fiery hell, would the Alliance have even stood a chance against the VIIth Legion? Was it all just a senseless waste of life?

After all it was stated time and again the Empire had conquered countries far more powerful than the Eorzean citystates so with just a motely group of adventurers doing the fighting (as powerful as we are), I don't think the Alliance would have came out on top in that regard if Bahamut's release hadn't completely wiped the Imperial forces out wholesale, making Alisaie's anger seem rather petty. At least her brother seems to understand just what a close-run affair it was, which is probably another reason for his more even-handed approach.

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After Nael Van Darnus's death Gaius Van Baelsar practically branded the VIIth legion as cultist defectors. It was the Grand Company Alliance along with the Warriors of Light that stood against a fairly disrupted and weakened VIIth legion, not the entire Garlean military. While Gaius was present for the battle, he was only watching from on high, technically hoping for the Alliance and the Warriors of Light to wipe out the VIIth legion.

Gaius and Darnus had very different points of view on how to deal with Eorzea which are pretty much in line with their ruling philosophy. Darnus believes in a divine bloodright to rule while Gaius would be more in favor of a meritocracy. Darnus wants to purge the land of its lesser blood while Gaius wants to take advantage of its strength and add it to the Empire. They were definitely at odds when it came to how Eorzea should be handled. So much so that Gaius actually throttles back his conquest and even shoots down a piece of VIIth legion tech so that we the players could intercept some key communications.

Darnus the Tyrant. Gaius the Benevolent.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Darnus the Tyrant. Gaius the Benevolent.

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I really don't think this is an accurate way to describe them. I would say Nael was more a Destroyer than a Tyrant and Gaius was more a Tyrant in terms of the way he wanted to use Eorzea than as a Benevolent force.

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Originally Posted by TychoCelchu

I really don't think this is an accurate way to describe them. I would say Nael was more a Destroyer than a Tyrant and Gaius was more a Tyrant in terms of the way he wanted to use Eorzea than as a Benevolent force.

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I guess if we're going for accuracy of terminology, in English, I'd call Nael the Instrument and Gaius the Authoritarian.

Nael's overt desires weren't his own, they were radically twisted by Bahamut's influence. In his foggy view of the world, House Darnus would fulfill divine prophecy to resurrect the Allag's lost technology and lead the world to a glorious new age, taking the realm off the Astral / Umbral wheel and giving rise to a new Empire through the might of Garlemald. Reducing Eorzea to ash, in his eyes, would be just like when Bozja Citadel was reduced to ash - an unfortunate but necessary setback that would ultimately lead to creation. In reality, this is all distorted by Bahamut's desire to purify with flame the world that enslaved and exiled him.

Giaus, on the other hand, was an authoritarian in every sense of the word. There are those with power and those without, and of those with power there are some that are fit to lead and some who are not. Those with power and the ability to lead are bound by duty to take control, and those without and who are not are obligated to bow down. To paraphrase some things I've said before, Baelsar was a Garlean legend before this Eorzean mess fell into his lap. The Dravanian Horde and Midgardsormr handed him a shameful defeat that led to an unbreakable stalemate, and when Darnus gave the Empire hope that it could be broken, Gaius was made second in command to who turned out to be a raving lunatic under the control of the very force he hated with all of his being - Eikons. It was humiliating. Now, the Emperor is dying and Garlemald has no unifying figure. This was Gaius' last chance to prove his worth, take control, rise to power, and solidify the three continents under one rightful rule. The stress and frustration drove him to such desperation and weakness that Lahabrea was able to get into his head - to manipulate him - to convince him to put everything on the line in exchange for more power. And he lost.

You know Moose, in hindsight the more I think of it the more I think it wasn't actually Bahamut pulling Nael's strings. Think about it. ARR clearly shows the Ascians throwing in their lot with Gaius and being the power behind his throne - the dialogue in the Praetorium strongly suggest that it was Lahabrea who gave Gaius the Ultima Weapon. What if in a similar way, that it was the Ascians who were the ones who really manipulated Nael into bringing down Dalamud?

I mean, it suits their purpose (to sow chaos and destruction to further their plans to rebirth Zodiark), they clearly revel in the destruction Bahamut causes, treating him almost like a pet, and they were clearly shown to be observing the Battle of Carteneau.

Of course this is all just my speculation, so take from it what you will, but it just seems to me that Nael was just another victim of Ascian machination and not Bahamut's puppet.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

snip~

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I really wouldn't be surprised if SE brings back some of the old Cutscenes and toss in Ascians behind the scenes. After all Nael van Darnus was able to rise into the air and hover before Dalamud.

http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...2bee905fd8.jpg

And the Ascians clearly can float ominously in the air. I'd rather it be Bahamut's influence, but ultimately wouldn't be surprised if the Ascians are shown to have affected him as well. Dalamud had more impact on the aetherflow, in terms of distortion, than Ifrit, Titan, Garuda, Ramuh, and Good King Moggle Mog XIIth have had. Ultimate goal of the Ascians was the imbalance, Van Darnus did perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

What if in a similar way, that it was the Ascians who were the ones who really manipulated Nael into bringing down Dalamud?

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I wrote about five or six different versions of my reply to this, each one a different digression into when the Ascians might have gotten involved in the fall of the Sixth Astral Era, and where, but I never got anywhere useful with it and just went in circles with myself. So, instead of leading up to this with a lot of "that's a great 'what if'" discussion, I'm forced to just leave it at this boring report. As interesting as your theory is, as far as I know, at most, some of it is possibly true and Nael was Bahamut's puppet.

We do have confirmation that that Bahamut, whether it be via some form of tempering or the natural abilities dragons seem to possess to manipulate man, gained control of Nael via first contact with the Lunar Transmitter, which a quest in 1.0 said could "communicate with the lesser moon." The first hint came when Nael, a Garlean with no magickal ability, used an eldritch magickal power to sever the aetherial line to the Bowl of Embers, but the big reveal was when Nael gave himself over (losing his lancer abilities and switching from third person to first person speech) and used the attack Megaflare.

Presently, and this could change, it looks to me like the Ascian arc was independent of this, or perhaps this was an unexpected side-effect of it. The Ascians were part of the original story, but it's been stated that Team Yoshida came up with "bringing Dalamud down" and the "What's in the Wonder Ball" reveal of Bahamut. I think they paused the Ascian story and started the Seventh Umbral Era the way they did as a marketing decision, a clear border between the two projects.

When Lahabrea first sees Bahamut, he says, "That I should live to behold Bahamut once more..." To me he seems surprised and amused to see him; as if saying, "Huh, no sh[kupo!]t... Well, that's great news! We needed primals for this and damned if that's not a great addition to the war effort." Would you interpret it differently?

Like I said, though, perhaps it is that you are right about the Ascian involvement to a certain degree and Darnus was a dragon primal's marionette.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Nael van Darnus was able to rise into the air and hover before Dalamud.

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In that scene, Nael gives himself over "body and soul" to "Almighty Dalamud." Bahamut is basically possessing him, hence the crystal wings, Megaflare, etc. Interestingly enough, and I believe it was Hiir who showed me this, Zodiark's Final Eclipse in FFXII looks very similar to Nael's crystal wings ... coincidence? Homage? Intentional likeness?

SE could go back and connect some dots at any time...

yo about Nero if you progress to beat Crystal Tower the ending cut sceen you see him after everyone walks away, he has his mask off so you see him as he is. Also he still holds a grudge with Cid, so i think he is going to be invovled with the Crystal tower when they expand more into it, he mentiones doing something with it to find a way to get back at cid and the gang.

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Originally Posted by Lordgrim

oh SHIT its SPOIL.

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You should put Spoil Up you know?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

When Lahabrea first sees Bahamut, he says, "That I should live to behold Bahamut once more..." [snip] Would you interpret it differently?

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I would. I would look at it more as a personal vindication of exceedingly hard work, perhaps reflecting on several decades of effort that would, a century prior, been deemed a pipe dream. The man [Man? Let's leave that for another time...] probably measures his lifespan in centuries, after all.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

In reality, this is all distorted by Bahamut's desire to purify with flame the world that enslaved and exiled him.

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Careful, Moose. We still don't properly understand what it is Bahamut wants, a reality that Alisae is seemingly alert to. All we know is that whatever that is, it is in opposition to our preferred world climate.

Oh, and also that "he mad".

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Originally Posted by Catapult

I would look at it more as a personal vindication of exceedingly hard work

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Also entirely possible; and now I'm leaning towards something in the middle - that it wasn't a direct goal, but it was an anticipated possible side-effect. The idea that it was all part of the plan, though, would be ... strange. That would imply that before Lahabrea brought Ascian knowledge to the XIVth Legion, Ascians had somehow influenced House Darnus' path to independently find the transmitter and figure out what it was used for while anticipating that Bahamut would then manipulate someone who was there to drop Dalamud on Eorzea to free him so that the Ascians could in turn advance their agenda... that's a lot of hands in a lot of cookie jars and a lot of leaving things to chance. Hell, even if they had a perfect interpretation of the Divine Chronicles, it'd still be uncharacteristic of them; they practically held Gaius and the Beast Tribes' hands while walking them through doing what they wanted them to do. Unless Midas was possessed by an Ascian the whole time and Gaius lied to Cid about his change of heart as an act of subterfuge! <darksteelfoil hat / ominous sfx>

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Careful, Moose. We still don't properly understand what it is Bahamut wants

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Point taken - I'd do well to not ignore the open door that a lot of things could possibly come through at any time.

In the meantime, though, as long as we're half-blind and theorycrafting, I'm sticking with what Bahamut said at the [German] end of Version 1.0

I AM CATHARSIS INCARNATE
I AM THE BEGINNING AND THE END
ALL ARE EQUAL BEFORE ME
ALL BECOMES NOTHING IN MY BURNING LIGHT

For the curious, in English, it was merely:

The hour is come.
Receive of me the gift of purity.

Also, good to know you're still lurking these threads; I feel like it's been a little while since we chipped away at the same parts of the story ^^

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Originally Posted by Altimis

You should put Spoil Up you know?

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you should learn to read the Topic post that says Spoiler before clicking it and then miss quoting someone cause i never said what you wrote. No one in this entire Topic even talked about Nero, i was the first to mention anything about him so please Altimis read Topic that says warning spoilers before clicking it becuase there is going to be spoilers mentioned in it broski.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Also, good to know you're still lurking these threads; I feel like it's been a little while since we chipped away at the same parts of the story ^^

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Yeah, I've been rather tied up playing the game since launch, absorbing lots of stuff along the way. Now getting to that point (read: all content bar beastmen clear) where I want to explore again.

Also got some more catching up to do...