Lets Talk PLD Add Tanking

So I read the boards here and try to see what people are doing and I see some trends but wanted to put something on paper and see what people think works best.

Method One: "The Flash Mob"
Here I see people saying they do 1 Flash for each number of adds or each add plus 1. So with 3 adds they would do 4 flashes then go into RoH combo.


Method Two: "RoH Everything!"
I see some people saying their method is more like this where you do a flash or 2 to start with and then target cycle each weapon skill of the RoH combo onto each add and maybe tossing another flash in after each round of RoH.


Method Three: "Manual Hate Combo"
This is the one I want to look into using but seems to be the most complicated. This method I see people describe like this:
Flash 2 times at start =>
Fast Blade 1st target =>
Flash the group =>
Savage Blade 2nd target =>
Flash the group =>
RoH the 3rd target =>
Flash the group

I think the 3rd would probably hold hate the best but being on ps3 it would require me to not use macros and manually press all of those limiting my space on my first bar.

As long as you keep damaging the other mobs and cycling flash you should be able to hold 3 mobs easily, the more that get added the trickier it gets. If you have shield oath activated then its fairly easy. Ultimately this is all dependent on whether or not your DD's can sleep the adds or if they're stupid and attack the wrong ones all the time. Those 2 factors make tanking adds easier or harder.

Flash adds enmity but not as much as a RoH combo, so its good for capturing the adds before you start dmging them.

But I usually label first and foremost by the potency of the target.

Shield Lob
Flash
Start RoH combo on mob #1
Start RoH combo and use RoH on mob #2
Flash
Start RoH combo on Mob #1, hit each mob #2 with SB, RoH on 3rd.

By that time your enmity should be cemented, so just keep spreading the combo and using flash in between every 2-3 combos so you can utilize the blind. This all depends on the DD's you have though. Some are better than others so you might need to focus on the first mob a little more than at other times.

One big thing with multiple adds is that you can just tab through as you do the combos and check the enmity meter. If you're completely full then you're good for now. Always check it to see where stand and which mob you need to focus on. Don't break sleep though, thats just extra dmg that you have to take.

Dont forget circle of scorn!

Also, beacsue savage has a enmity modifier on it (1500 potency with SO) and fast does not, I would say Fast-> Savage <next target> ROH <next target> fast/savage.

Flash is also low threat per second, so you want to spend as little time using it as you can. It is not split up accross targets, so each will build the same amount per target. Normally, I pull in this fashion:

Shiled lob main target (marked) -> flash -> cos -> fast/savage -> change target
roh-> change target
fast savage -> change target
roh -> change target

Keep COS on cool down. If you notice the flash run out, use it just to redebuff them as a mitigation tool.

I Play on PS3, and dont' have a problem keeping all three steps of ROH combo on my main bar... so IDK. I woudln't really suggest macros for that anyway as you are not getting the best micromanagement that way (you will always have extra delay between steps than you would by using the combo manually).

If you are holding l2 or r2, hitting l1 or r1 will cycle targets left/right. Pretty sure its even limited to engaged mobs. If you can master this, you'll find you never have aoe threat problems (I can do the table top pulls in castrum before the airship encounter solo and hold all threat without problem.) PLD aoe threat isn't actually as weak as people make it out to be, it just takes more micromanagement than spamming 1.0 steel cyclone.

I mainly ask because I just made it to Stone Vigil and playing with 2 SMN dps was driving me crazy.

Even doing SL => Flash => Flash

By the time I made it back to the main target cycling FB => Savage =>RoH on the 3 diff targets I had already lost hate on the main target.

Also doing PLD mob pulls on PS3...

The correct answer is really some variation of "all of the above". I mark targets, lob, then spam flash about 3 or four times, then do a combo on my first mark, flash, do combo on my second mark, flash, and so on, rotating through any other mobs there until I'm back to the first mark. By then, that mark is either already dead and DPS has moved onto my second mark, or the first one is about to be dead anyway. But, either way, if I'm diligent about the rotation and the flashes, I won't lose aggro.

Also keep in mind when there are more adds, you will be taking more damage, which means the healer will be generating more enmity. Popping one of your defensive cooldowns at the beginning of a pull is also important if you are taking a large amount of damage from a lot of mobs.

Go to your grand company and upgrade your level 35 weapon to the level 40 one. Everything will generate much more enmity, including Flash.

Generally I do the second method. Shield Lob on 1, Flash, Fast/Savage on 1 and RoH on 2. Fast/Savage 1, RoH 3, Flash. (Also level 35). This way I don't lose my single target during the rotation, but build up enough threat on 2 and 3 that usually keeps them off the healer. Then I'll do a full combo on 1 and then fast/savage 2 and RoH 3. After this I'm set. This has been my rotation at this time.

RoH? when I am add tanking, I use the Riot blade chain to get me as much MP as possible and use flash of light + Circle of Scorn for AoE aggro. When they go down to 2 targets, that's when I switch to RoH chain, I usually pop Fight or flight + Bloodbath (great for aggro generation thx to self heal), I almost never do Flash of light on 2 or less targets if I have those CDs ready. Riot blade chain is also faster burst damage, RoH might result in higher overall damage.

To me RoH seems like great on paper but I have always done a much better job spamming flash of light with riot blade to back me up on MP generation. Even when I have hasty DPS in my group that will start DoTing or AoEing right off the bat, or even with healers who cast regen on me, when I switch to the flash of light spamming routine, I can get the aggro back and keep it.

You don't have to flash all the time. Always look at the hate indicator on your left and check if they are all red. If you see flashing orange triangle, Either you do a flash or shield lob. If it becomes too late and the hate indicator has turned into a yellow, Use provoke. This will save you up mana a lot!

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

Go to your grand company and upgrade your level 35 weapon to the level 40 one. Everything will generate much more enmity, including Flash.

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I think this is more important than many tanks currently realize. I have read stories of tanks succeeding and other stories of them failing while using both of the methods described in the OP, so i suspect that both are actually viable tactics and the third factor of the main hand weapon is the real determinant. All enmity generating actions are directly dependent on your main hand weapon so if it is not up-to-date it greatly reduces your ability to hold hate from a dps who has an up-to-date weapon, regardless of the specific tactics you are using.

Quick someone pin these to the DPS and HEALER pages so they can realise how hard Tanking really is. On topic anyone else have the issue of healers standing directly next to you mid horde while you are trying to keep them alive or mages Kiting In boss fights while you are trying to agro the adds?

My rotation as other tanks who wrote here:

1 - Shield lob
2 - Flash
3 - Scorn
4 - Flash
5 - Chain combo
6 - If are not a fucking caster like "Succubus" i use "Spirits withing" meanwhile the RoH is animated.
7 - target new objective, hit them until "Savage blade" change 3rd mob and use over him RoH.

At this moment, healer it's safe if not spam aoe overheal.

BLM and Bards are fucking aggro dps. If they are overgeared, i have to hold my enmity over theirs focus, using RoH chain combo and flash after Scorn it's up.

I noticed alot of you guys aren't utilizing non-GCD abilities inbetween your GCD weaponskills, it's really the best way to maximize hate control and DPS. Just for reference here's what I do.

Single Target:
Flash > Fight or Flight while on GCD > Fast Blade > Spirits while on GCD> Savage Blade > Circle of Scorn while on GCD > Rage of Halone.

Multi Target:
Shield Lob and wait for mobs to converge on me > Flash > Flash > Fight or Flight while on GCD > Fast Blade > Spirits while on GCD> Savage Blade > Circle of Scorn while on GCD > Rage of Halone > Flash > Rotate Hate Combo on mobs as neccessary.

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Originally Posted by Jayrune

I think this is more important than many tanks currently realize. I have read stories of tanks succeeding and other stories of them failing while using both of the methods described in the OP, so i suspect that both are actually viable tactics and the third factor of the main hand weapon is the real determinant. All enmity generating actions are directly dependent on your main hand weapon so if it is not up-to-date it greatly reduces your ability to hold hate from a dps who has an up-to-date weapon, regardless of the specific tactics you are using.

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Luckily, I learned this as I was FATE farming in Aleport. With the level 10 weapon I couldn't hold single target threat no matter what I'd use (and there really aren't many choices at 16), but switching to a better weapon did wonders.

well im not level 50 yet so the only off GC stuff I have is defensive buffs and FoF

"Shield Lob" Main target position myself so i can "Flash" > "Circle of Scorn" > "Fracture" > "Spirits Within" > "Fast Blade" > "Rampart" or "Sentinel" > "Flash" > "Savage Blade" > "Rage of Halone" > "Flash"

I will continue to use "Circle of Scorn" and "Spirits Within" when they are off CD. Always make sure to throw in a "Flash" middle of your "Fast Blade" to Halone combo.

When mana is getting below 40% its best to try and rotate in your "Riot Blade" Combo

I never do a chain combo and hit multiple targets to try and tag other targets.

As for the "Rampart" or "Sentinel" in my rotation, I personally have noticed a huge difference in Enmity gained over the mobs I'm not targeting. I don't know how it helps increase my Enmity gain or helps lowers the healers and DPS but it seems to work wonders. (If you think I'm feeding you bull I would like you to go out and try it)

It lowers the healer's enmity gain because they aren't curing you as much.

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

I mainly ask because I just made it to Stone Vigil and playing with 2 SMN dps was driving me crazy.

Even doing SL => Flash => Flash

By the time I made it back to the main target cycling FB => Savage =>RoH on the 3 diff targets I had already lost hate on the main target.

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What your looking at is the summoners ability to spread disease. I run AK with a friend that is one and it pisses me to no end. I think i have everything lined up, do my rotation then set in to tank for a sec and i see an add run at him. It makes it hectic to say the least.

It really depends. Your OP has the title Add Tanking. If you're responsible for tanking adds you can open with Flash if they spawn at the same spot, shield lob on while you're running to the other if they spawn in different spots. The main thing with adds is that you HAVE to label them and the DPS HAVE to follow the kill order. We don't have much variety for AoE (it's not like we have Thunderclap/Cleave or stun-a-pack-of-mobs-Shockwave that does decent damage and is affected by our threat modifiers) and because of that Flash does lose a bit of its luster the longer you're holding adds because you have a chance of losing the enmity game against DPS that spam AoE, not to mention the healer. Of course, you can supplement with Rage of Hallone combos, but following kill order is still key to keeping things orderly.

One nice thing I wish they would add in a patch is an improved version of Shield Lob. Right now it only works by pulling 1 target, but it would be cool to see an improved version (which you obviously get at higher levels as a passive Trait) that attacks and pulls the 2 extra closest mobs on top of your main target already. The shield would simply just bounce of off three targets in close proximity to each other, Captain America style. This way you would pull 3 enemies directly at the start and hold considerable enmity on all three of them and not have to worry about the other 2 enemies running after your healer. Then once they get close to you, you can Flash them and hold even more enmity equally on all three. And let's face it, most mobs you face at any one time usually consist of about 3 enemies. It would make Shield Lob a terrific move to pull multiple enemies in the beginning of a fight and to pull them midway if they stray. Please like if you think this is a nice idea, and hopefully we can see a patch coming soon where they upgrade this ability for Paladins :). Go team Paladin!

I mark the "main target" then face pull >>> Flash>> COS >> FB>>SB>>ROH>>Flash (by this time the first mob is dead and i mark the second.) I personally dont like to flash spam, and will flash enough times to keep hate off of the healer, occasionally, I will rotate through the targets, laying down SB and ROH (combos) where they are needed, based on hate levels (seems each healer has their own agro levels). Doing all of this while alternating defensive cooldowns on each pull to keep the heals I need to a minimum (less healer agro). If a dps is hitting something other than what is marked, they get to tank it, until it is dead, they are dead, or the healer gains agro on it.

I just got a couple WP runs under my belt, 2 very different experiences.

Healer #1: casting medica a lot, generating a ton of threat.

Healer #2: barely ever took threat.

Changing nothing, I had 2 completely different experiences. in one I was chasing mobs, trying to keep up, rotating only to lose aggro on attack1.

The other was completely smooth, I had mobs on me the whole time and never came close to dying.

Which brings me to my point, aggro management is a group responsibility. In my opinion, tanks should not be buffed to the point that every other class can be careless and not expect to pull aggro. It takes a dimension away from the game.

The fact is you could be doing everything right, but if the healer is spamming Medica II, no amount of flash spamming is going to get those mobs off the healer.

If you find you're at a complete loss on why you can't keep aggro, sometimes the solution is a few kind words to your fellow party members and your problem is solved.

Well just to report back on my rotation that is always subject to vary but this is my blueprint or starting point with 3 adds

Shield Lob >>
Flash for each mob in the group >>
Main target FB > SB >>
Secondary Target > RoH >>
Flash >>
Main target FB > SB >>
3rd Target > RoH

With level 50 you can rotate in CoS and SW as your off GC stuff to push out more damage.

Oh one thing I would like to ask, what are you guys doing if suddenly there is an over pull and you end up with 5 - 6 adds on you.

My current thing is to flash a bunch of times (like 4 or 5).
Toss in CoS during all the flashes.
Pop atleast half if not all my defensive boost abilities.
Then I do FB > RB and Flash after each one as I am normally out of MP after about 5 - 6 flashes.

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

Oh one thing I would like to ask, what are you guys doing if suddenly there is an over pull and you end up with 5 - 6 adds on you.

My current thing is to flash a bunch of times (like 4 or 5).
Toss in CoS during all the flashes.
Pop atleast half if not all my defensive boost abilities.
Then I do FB > RB and Flash after each one as I am normally out of MP after about 5 - 6 flashes.

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in cm, when 5+ adds spawn, they dont have high hp, and they should all die in less than 10 gcd, if they dont, your group dps are low and you should not have aggro problem.

to tell you the truth, ive done plenty of CM runs where i dont have to burn though all my mana spamming "Flash".

"Shield Lob" all targets on your way till you are ready to round them up and AoE them down
"Rampart" > "Flash" > "Fast Blade" > "Circle of Scorn" > "Flash" > "Riot Blade" > "Flash" > "Fast Blade" > "Flash" > "Riot Blade"
then from there its a simple ( "Flash" > "Fast Blade" > "Riot Blade") till the mobs go down to manageable numbers.

PLD can easily AoE tank if you know what you are doing. ive been running dungeons where WAR are farting in the wind giving it all they have to TRY and pull HATE from me. Only time someone can out do me if i get the initial hate is if they have a garuda or above weapon which i have yet to get.

They need to give us PLD AoE for enmity to control FOR all the mobs that are around them because this happens alot before pld flash's we have summoners that dot instant and bane then you have archers AoE mobs in circle, before you say that circle of scorn holds hate it freaking don't.
If you guys haven't notices flash works on mobs for 12sec then 6sec then 3sec most of the time. So don't flash after the spell is ready...
what we would like to see a spell that generates enmity MORE THEN flash... so far theres none flash don't count since other class's can dot way fast and nuke crazy.
Let us have circle of scorn that generates enmity when the dot goes away the spell is ready to use this is just an idea.

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Originally Posted by katsu456

to tell you the truth, ive done plenty of CM runs where i dont have to burn though all my mana spamming "Flash".

"Shield Lob" all targets on your way till you are ready to round them up and AoE them down
"Rampart" > "Flash" > "Fast Blade" > "Circle of Scorn" > "Flash" > "Riot Blade" > "Flash" > "Fast Blade" > "Flash" > "Riot Blade"
then from there its a simple ( "Flash" > "Fast Blade" > "Riot Blade") till the mobs go down to manageable numbers.

PLD can easily AoE tank if you know what you are doing. ive been running dungeons where WAR are farting in the wind giving it all they have to TRY and pull HATE from me. Only time someone can out do me if i get the initial hate is if they have a garuda or above weapon which i have yet to get.

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by the time you Shield Lob all the mobs summoners and archers beat you to it people need to start understanding theres NO real enmity control when it comes to groups mobs X6

Paladins suck relatively at add Tanking.

They should change Shield Swipe, to Shield Chain which would be a off-the-GCD AoE that boomerangs your Shield into all Targets and generates enmity and a small amount of damage at the cost of not being able to block for 2.5s.

i was thinking the same thing you don't need to do all that just to get enmity O.o
"Shield Lob" all targets on your way till you are ready to round them up and AoE them down
"Rampart" > "Flash" > "Fast Blade" > "Circle of Scorn" > "Flash" > "Riot Blade" > "Flash" > "Fast Blade" > "Flash" > "Riot Blade"
then from there its a simple ( "Flash" > "Fast Blade" > "Riot Blade") till the mobs go down to manageable numbers.

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Originally Posted by katsu456

PLD can easily AoE tank if you know what you are doing.

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Agree with this. Have done CM add tanking duty and the only ugliness usually comes from trigger happy DPS. Basically doing the same thing. Also for the boss if you're on add duty and you feel like being liberal with flashes, you can always refill mana FB > RB on the boss before the next wave.

That being said with any and all AoE tanking, not all mobs are created equal. So if you do lose aggro, know which mobs can be healed through, and which mobs can one shot your party members. If you lose a magitek in CM, don't spam flash and chase the human mobs, get aggro on the magiteck and then gather whatever mobs you need to gather after that, casters being your last priority.