lets talk talent trees

this game really should have a talent tree system im so fed up already with having only 1 class and that's all, there is potential for a white mage to be a dmg dealer but without talent tree system to allow this all they will ever be is a boring healer... you might argue then play BLM but why cant paladins be dps with a 2 handed sword ?? this game needs variety in the classes atm they are abit lack luster

They have implemented the Job system so that you can actually play every class/job in the game if you want, on one character, which is amazing imho. I personally think that it is a nice change from a lot of the MMOs out there that have made every class able to do everything and you end up with forums full of people complaining that this class is better than the one they are playing for this role or that. Paladins are not meant in FF to DPS with 2H weapons. Seems like you are already playing the right class if you want to DPS with a 2H.

While this is true, gear withstanding, there is no difference from one paladin to the next. I think skill trees should alter the jobs in such a way that at its core, its the same job however each tree is slightly different. Now, I do understand that even with job trees, the min/maxers of the world will still determine the optimal skillset at which point we end up with cookie-cutter classes yet again but that becomes the obligation of the developers to ensure that all skill trees are viable (either entirely or situationally).

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Originally Posted by Exonerate

They have implemented the Job system so that you can actually play every class/job in the game if you want, on one character,.

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I get what you are saying but it becomes pointless to have all classes on 1 char because it takes far to long to lvl them all, im a dragoon and if I wanted a paladin lvl 50 I have to go back to lvl 1 and lvl him from 1 to 50 with no quests AT ALL that is boring tedious and takes far to long.... im currently lvling my white mage its lvl 28 atm and I find myself bored non stop with this game lately, I keep asking myself a question atm and that's is there a point to me subbing to this game ?? end game is nothing 1 dungeon worth doing and after you have done it 8 times it becomes pointless cause tomes of myth get capped and then the best way to get tomes of phil is castrum that drops 100 tomes and no gear ... so I ask you the same question, is there a point to sub to this game atm ??

Your diversity comes in the form of how many classes you have levelled. It's also pretty quick to cap out a class. Be thankful this isn't 50-75 cap XI where reaching max level could take in the region of months.

This isn't WoW. I like that each job has it's own JOB. You want diversity and it's already in the game with a selection of different jobs.

You could play conjurer and pull abilities from other classes to improve your damage, but don't expect to be able to participate in much level 50 content.

First off, leveling a second class is extremely fast, but I agree it is boring and needs a lot of work.

Second, we don't need skill trees. They are a ton of work for devs, and a little work for number crunchers only to end up with everyone being forced into specific specs for those number crunchers delight. Even WoW has essentially removed its skill trees. When we have more jobs branching off each class, we will have more variety. Kind of like sch and smn, both are same base class but act like a different "spec" in other mmos. We have *some* class customization with cross class skills, but ultimately this way is far easier to balance and allows devs to spend much more time on content and new jobs/classes then pondering the possible ramifications of an extra 2% damage how elitist might stack it.

tldr; Talent trees are illusion of customization and take away a lot of dev time, more jobs off current classes is the better option.

No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Skill trees blow pretty much all around. Especially in cases where it's difficult/impossible to respec. Pretty much every skill tree example I've seen has certain skills that look effective, but in practice blow, skills that are a must-have (and it's not always obvious what those are), and other such things.

Oftentimes, the game has to be balanced to accommodate for the player that takes the most effective combination of perks, and so skill trees become less "Hey, I can build my character any number of ways!" and instead "Aww shit, I leveled up. Now I have to browse all the forums to find out where I need to put my points so I'm not completely useless"

I like the idea of cross class skills adding to the customization of your job/class; However, some classes (disciples of magic) dont have enough useful cross class skills to create that customization. I suppose when they add more classes, that will be fixed. There is a huge imbalance in magic classes, 3 compared to 5.

with the small tank and healer pool we already have, talents that would make healer or tank dps will just make that pool of ppl smaller, from my experience from other MMOs half the healers play dps spec. thats just retarted, imho its good that healer can only heal.

Essentially there are some aspects of a game that are "the game" and in FFXIV that's the class/job system.
It's not as though it isn't working correctly.

I honestly wouldn't mind talent trees (per class). It would be nice to be able to influence your stats with something other than gear. Sure, you have bonus stats, but that covers everything. So if you dump into mnd and decide you want to use something else, your other classes won't be what they could be.

And it really is a bit boring as far as customization goes. Aside from whoever has better gear, there's not a good way to play around with your stats. It's about the same across the board.

edit: then again, you have games like gw2 that never quite could get it right, with the devs always messing things up, incorrect tooltips and skills not working properly...

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Originally Posted by Chauve

Sure, you have bonus stats, but that covers everything. So if you dump into mnd and decide you want to use something else, your other classes won't be what they could be.

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Umm... what are you talking about? The bonus stats are per class. The only time you run into issues is with Arcanist, where it has Summoner (which needs Intelligence) and Scholar (which needs Mind) as jobs branching off of it.

One thing I do like about the current system is that outside of gear, all Conjurers (for example) have access to the same set of spells, and as such the game becomes more about player skill and less about proper skill tree point allocation.

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Originally Posted by nemein

this game really should have a talent tree system im so fed up already with having only 1 class and that's all, there is potential for a white mage to be a dmg dealer but without talent tree system to allow this all they will ever be is a boring healer... you might argue then play BLM but why cant paladins be dps with a 2 handed sword ?? this game needs variety in the classes atm they are abit lack luster

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Look to the Summoner/Scholar branches of the Arcanist class for this system. All class will eventually have at least two specializations, and they're likely to be as differently themed as the example we currently have in game.

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Originally Posted by chumsy

I like the idea of cross class skills adding to the customization of your job/class; However, some classes (disciples of magic) dont have enough useful cross class skills to create that customization. I suppose when they add more classes, that will be fixed. There is a huge imbalance in magic classes, 3 compared to 5.

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That was one thing i really liked about 1.0, if i remember correctly, being able to pull skills from any class you leveled into what ever job. People did feel forced to take some skills, but was pretty neat.

OP, just wait, more jobs will be added, one i bet will be a big two handed dps. No clue when, but yeah. Personally, i hate talent trees, you pretty much HAVE to go to sites like Elitist Jerks and just do what they recommend, or you will be just gimped. Didn't really add much going another direction, just less efficiency. When they trimmed it to current way, with much fewer choices, it got better balanced, but even then, they still have "optimal builds" that if you don't have, good luck not being made fun of with people with recount. :P

Even in games with Skill Trees you end up with "expected" builds. Just like here if you play Warrior you're expected to have equiped GLA's Provoke.

In FFXIV a class is your base and a job is your specialization skill tree.

Using ACN as an example. You want to focus on DPS as ACN? Equip the SMN job stone. You want to focus on Healing? Equip the SCH job stone.

CNJ could work the same way. Heal? Equip WHM stone. DPS/Support(since it already has so many cures natively)? Equip the GEO or TIM or whatever they decide to add job stone.

I am kind of split on the talent trees thing. I like talent trees (WoW's more recent, streamlined version, not the traditional version) but FF has always had this sort of job system in place and it is unique. I like to think of FFXIV as a MMO version of FFTA. All jobs are the same, but what makes the characters different is what traits and skills they use from other jobs to supplement that job.

I think right now FFXIV isn't taking advantage of this. We take up to 5 skills from other jobs that synergize with our class, but it just feels like we're adding more abilities to press in an already ability bloated game.

In my opinion it would be more interesting if we did not take abilities from these supplemental classes but rather traits, or mechanics.

Let's not.

How about an ability as in Final Fantasy Tactics. you get JP for gaining a level or x JP for killing a mob and you use that JP to gain a new ability...but then that would hinder later expansions....

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Originally Posted by Orophin

You could play conjurer and pull abilities from other classes to improve your damage, but don't expect to be able to participate in much level 50 content.

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About this... I belive the customization IS pulling skills from other classes. It just doesn't look like it now because we only have six to choose from now.

As new classes get added and we have more cross class actions I'm sure you'll have some harsh decisions to make.

Think about ACN, and how it has TWO job options (Sch or Smn). Think of all the traditional Final Fantasy jobs or classes... Red mage, Blue mage, Geomancer, Dancer, Chemist, Templar, Ninja, Samurai, Assassin... Think about where they could fit into the classes that currently exist in FFXIV as new jobs. Enjoy what is in the game and working now, in anticipation of what's to come.

talent trees are a waste.. same as they would be here.. min/maxers would just find the best combo and bam cookie cutter trees return and yet again there would still be no individuality to the classes.. no point.. and.. I saw someone say a whm can do dmg but not without a talent tree.. they aren't a dps class so why should they get a talent tree to do dmg.. there is literally no point to a talent tree here.. each class/job is designed for a certain purpose.. if you don't like that class you then need to play a different class..