"Fix" Speed Runs? How about fixing the real issue?

Trash mobs are a waste of time that yield no items or gil.

this.

/10char

If you want to kill the bosses, you gotta kill the stuff before him. That is the incentive to kill the trash, to get to the boss. Your not being rewarded for killing the trash, your killing the trash so you can get to the boss to get your reward.

Wow the entitlement here.... I am struggling to think of a game that actually gave something worht while for trash mobs... I mean the whole reason we called them trash mobs... was due to trashy loot. Are you guys serious? I mean I get that you were TOTALLY exploiting the game and they fixed it. They reduced repair costs. so go kill trash mobs. I do not get at all where your coming from

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Trash mobs are a waste of time that yield no items or gil.

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Because you have to kill the trash to get to the bosses just like everysingle one of other instances.

I suggest you should now start a thread complaining about the others dungeons don't have speed run.

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Trash mobs are a waste of time that yield no items or gil.

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It's worse than that, they actually yield NEGATIVE gil because of the cost of repairs for clearing them. You're punished by clearing them and receive absolutely nothing for your effort.

Its a dungeon, your supposed to go through clearing it out. Thats why its not just a boss fight and thats it.

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Originally Posted by Noata

Wow the entitlement here.... I am struggling to think of a game that actually gave something worht while for trash mobs... I mean the whole reason we called them trash mobs... was due to trashy loot. Are you guys serious? I mean I get that you were TOTALLY exploiting the game and they fixed it. They reduced repair costs. so go kill trash mobs. I do not get at all where your coming from

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Vindictus, Mabinogi, EQOA, EQ2, Aion, Allods, GW2 and the list goes on.

It's not that you're struggling to think of a game, it's just that you don't give a rat's ass. It's an archaic system that many MMOs are starting to move away from. Stop defending bullshit with more bullshit.

Many games out there have special loot that you can ONLY GET from certain 'trash' mobs. They usually have stats that are respectable and hold their own against chest/boss loot from instances. They just had insanely low drop rates to make them rare. All we're asking is to give the dungeon trash a 0.5% chance of dropping a chest with pink loot.

More WoW whiny babies that cry when the game doesn't hand them everything they want.

I do agree that gil should drop from other mobs ( only gil making from killing mobs is by killing Garlands).

Edit (Suggestion): Every Boss fight ( mini as well) you get gil and Bosses should yield a decent amount of gil).

The objectives usually say "clear that room" or "kill that boss". If people found a more efficient way completing these objectives, why is SE kicking them in the balls now? Imo monsters in a dungeon should drop tomestones to make it worth killing them, if SE wants them dead so badly.

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Originally Posted by ilJumperMT

Trash mobs are a waste of time that yield no items or gil.

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Trash should yield gil or a very rare chance at a good item. 100% approved.

What has happened to everyone, its like 5 years went by and I stepped into bizarro world.

sounds like a money management issue. just because the user sucks at finance doesn't mean the game is broken. learn ways to make money other than brute force trash pharm, and learn better ways to mitigate your repair costs.

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Originally Posted by Tuldin

sounds like a money management issue. just because the user sucks at finance doesn't mean the game is broken. learn ways to make money other than brute force trash pharm, and learn better ways to mitigate your repair costs.

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Someone there clearly doesn't understand how gil finds its way into the world ;)

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Originally Posted by misterrpg

More WoW whiny babies that cry when the game doesn't hand them everything they want.

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Wow modernized it - remember everything up to TBC? instances were still "grindy" yet still gave incentive to actually kill trash - the opposite is happening here.

Everquest was oine of the first that did this, hell it was the first. Trash mobs should drop Gold/Items/Cash loot. Nuff said. Or bring back the aspects of most FF games where after killing a specific trash mob, a new rare mob spawns (00.001% chance) that has a 20% chance of dropping an amazing item. FF3/6?

They just make it more worse >< more trash mobs now. add some effin loot to trash!
There is a lot players that like kill mobs for money.

oh well, when free sub ends im out. end game is just boring.

I actually think there are a lot of options for better dungeons (and reasons to go into them and keep some trash around too).

Times waves / Mini bosses Dungeons
You have semi challenging mini bosses that retreat though the dungeon every X mins a new wave of trash spawns and moves towards you.
This happens regardless of if your on the boss or still clearing the last lot of them.

Multi mini boss / different routs / timed
You chose a patch the the dungeon at each mini boss, depending on what bosses you face (i.e the path you pick (boss allotment would be random too) this effects the area.
Options could include:
- The next mini boss and a clear patch
- A Floor puzzle? (you have to keep moving and die if not)
- A few elite mobs.
- Lot and lots of trash mobs.
- A dead end or really hard hard demon wall.
- You can double back and change path (reduces final loot volume/level)

Attack/Defence Dungeons
- Multiple locations are under attack/being attacked and your helping, mini bosses with trash support will keep spawning and attacking the opposing forces.
- Depending on the number of locations you save/capture the better the reward is.
- Between locations are mini boss fights or trash (random).
- The Final boss has more support based on what you have/haven't achieved balanced against the reward (you do really badly you just get a mini boss again but still some reward).

Assault Dungeons (8/12 man Empire beast tribe)
- Multiple waves rush your location you have to push though them shutting down the spawn/access point.
- Only one main boss spens once you only have 1 access/spawn point left.
- Spawn points can be reactivated by specific npcs (resulting in you getting attacked from behind :D ).

Ok i could go on for ages with ideas but still to keep this shorter..

Changes to give reasons to keep trash in dungeons:
- Specific items only come from them.
- Rare HQ materials come from them.
- Random mobs hold keys to unlock side rooms/boss rooms.
- Better Gil rewards from humanoid mobs.
- Gear drops (I'm only talking stuff we can get that the mob would be wearing and it would be Torn/damaged needing a crafter/npc to fix it)

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

It's worse than that, they actually yield NEGATIVE gil because of the cost of repairs for clearing them. You're punished by clearing them and receive absolutely nothing for your effort.

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More like you are punishing yourself by expecting to not put in effort to gain reward.

Oh, let's not forget that FFXI actually gave you incentive to kill trash mobs in dungeon-like settings. It's strange that a game made by the same company ELEVEN YEARS AGO has the right idea in comparison. If anything, this is a hardcore regression that makes me wonder if Yoshi_P only played Korean MMOs, the worst of them all.

Edit: Oh, with a little dash of Guild Wars 2, as it's obvious this is where he pulled the FATE system from. I hope there's an interview with him admitting this as it would be rather disgusting if he doesn't even mention the inspiration.

Um, trash DOES drop stuff. They have a chance to drop components, which are very important (and profitable) in this game.

Don't sell to vendors, use the marketplace! You have to work for your gil a bit in this game.

Well, there are lots of materials needed for gathering that can only be obtained by killing mobs, like fleece and diremite web, and tons of skins and all kind of bones and other random things. And they are damn expensive in the market right now. I kind of see that as an incentive.

And not everything have to proportionate a reward. I like the challenge that some of the big group of trash mobs in dungeon can offer.

Why dont SE let those trash mobs drop animal fats, coke, etc. Sure as hell solves a lot of the problems we seeing.

Play as the game was intended to be played and you won't have these kinds of issues. The devs obviously intended people to fight their way through the instance, rather than use an aggro/enmity exploit to run to the boss. Frankly, I think the speedrunners are lucky they didn't get banned or suspended for using what is obviously an exploit/unintended play mechanics.

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Originally Posted by misterrpg

More WoW whiny babies that cry when the game doesn't hand them everything they want.

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Nearly every mob in wow has a chance of dropping epics and recipes, and most drop money or vendor trash 99% of the time. In FFXIV they don't drop anything but 1 of a mat that unless you have a use for it yourself, sells for 1 gil.

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Originally Posted by Boyahd

Vindictus, Mabinogi, EQOA, EQ2, Aion, Allods, GW2 and the list goes on.

It's not that you're struggling to think of a game, it's just that you don't give a rat's ass. It's an archaic system that many MMOs are starting to move away from. Stop defending bullshit with more bullshit.

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MMO's are not moving away from it... I play most of those games, and your lying so bad right now.

EQ2 does not give stuff for trash mobs at all, maybe some Land L items from killing them, or a super rare chance to get a chest. I call your bluff.

GW2 you farm things like leather from them, and if its a person you can get a bag that basically opens into crafting supplies... I call you there too.

as for Vindictus, you totally get loot from bosses, its all boss driven, kill boss and collect x number of y component. the best you can get from the mobs is a small crafting material you may need. 1 of the hundreds you need. I call you there.



Your so full of BS at your list of games, I might have stayed quiet if you didn't call out games that I played hardcore in. Trash mobs are not profitable period.

EQ2: Cradle of Death Guild, I usually Play my SK who is on antonia bayle server. been playing since before DoF expansion
GW2: I main my Thief, Naoto Shirogane
Vindictus: I play on east side, on my Character Kanu, a scythe Evie.

As a pretty dedicated Guild Wars 2 player, anyone citing Guild Wars 2 as a great example of loot design has no idea what they are talking about. And I like that game. :rolleyes:

GW2 has an extremely flat curve of profitability at max level.

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Originally Posted by Holyhunter

Nearly every mob in wow has a chance of dropping epics and recipes, and most drop money or vendor trash 99% of the time. In FFXIV they don't drop anything but 1 of a mat that unless you have a use for it yourself, sells for 1 gil.

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DO NOT SELL THINGS TO NPCs! Marketplace, marketplace, marketplace! Spend the five minutes to realize what things are really worth! Many components sell for anywhere from 100g to 1,000g!

How about fixing the REAL issue:

We, the "ELITE SLS*" (*Special Little Snowflakes) want the ultimate endgame gear RIGHT NOW with LITTLE OR NO EFFORT INVOLVED -- also we don't want EVERYONE to have it, that would make us less special.


How to achieve this:

1. Remove all dungeon currency drops from the game
2. Identify ELITE SLS players by the following criteria: A) Those that hit the cap their currency drops per week (use server data to find it) and B) Complain on the forums - Then give them 100k of both kinds of endgame currency and 999 million gil- this saves us ELITE SLS players TONS of time
3. Make unique flaming armor and ultra huge glowing weapons for ELITE SLS players so everyone can see us at a distance - oh, and a giant flying dragon mount.
4. Give ELITE SLS players with Dragon mounts the ability to open-world PVP - so ppl know how boss we are.
5. Give ELITE SLS players a tag to their name that says "FIRST ON SERVER for EVERYTHING" - make it really large text so ppl can see it in FATES and stuff.

If SE does this, it will ensure that the ELITE SLS players will feel super elite (and super special) a long time to come.

If SE doesn't do this, the game is doomed to fail.

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Originally Posted by Boyahd

Edit: Oh, with a little dash of Guild Wars 2, as it's obvious this is where he pulled the FATE system from. I hope there's an interview with him admitting this as it would be rather disgusting if he doesn't even mention the inspiration.

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Slamming an MMO dev for inspired ideas is getting on the far side of stupid. Lets not forget that Guild Wars 2 pulled it from Warhammer: Age of Reckoning. Or that it's been done in countless single player openworld RPGs.

On a more mechanic based perspective. Trash provides a very real barrier to groups. You can't kill trash. You don't a shot at the boss.

And before you say "It's too easy", I see tons of 50s who raced to cap having to sit and wait for their buddies because "Pugs suck".

Should there be more rewards? Debatable. I get tired of games that just throw loot at you. I like my loot to be more meaningful than WoW's freebie epics, or even worse, completely upgrading gear every 3 months when a new raid tier is out.

It's people like everyone complaining here that don't get everything they want right away, that complain about lack of endgame because they consumed an MMO FAR faster than intended that destroy the forum community bickering because they aren't catered to. Calm down and play the game.

SE said speed runs were an unintended function of dungeons. So in their eyes it was something we weren't supposed to be doing in the first place. Does that make killing trash any less of a problem? No, but you all have to realize that's not how they wanted us to play the game. Sure it's annoying to have to kill all the trash, but until they make it more worthwhile, we're just gunna have to deal or quit. I'd rather keep dealing as I like the game too much for this to stop me.

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Originally Posted by Jeht

On a more mechanic based perspective. Trash provides a very real barrier to groups. You can't kill trash. You don't a shot at the boss.

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Are you really implying that killing the trash is harder than the speedruns? You could probably just auto attack the trash to death. At least speedruns require some miniscule amount of thought from the tank. If you can't make it past the trash in AK, then i don't know how you made it past the trash in sastasha.

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Originally Posted by Noata

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It's funny how your post only strengthens my point. Here, let me point out how you tripped over your own self:

-maybe some Land L items from killing them
So you're admitting that trash mobs DO drop something. See, at least there's mobs in dungeons that CAN drop something of use in EQ2. FFXIV has NONE so far.

-GW2 you farm things like leather from them
Leather, among a vast number of different crafting materials, which are used to craft items that are pretty good for end-game. Once again, trash mobs still drop something of use compared to FFXIV.

(cont.)

- the best you can get from the mobs is a small crafting material you may need
Now you're full of shit and it's obvious you haven't gotten to the lv 70-80 range in Vindictus. Sure bosses drop the meat of the materials you need for crafting, but what about the massive number of ores and leathers you need in conjunction? That's where the trash mobs come in, and thus, they STILL drop worthwhile items. It's funny because this is a Korean MMO known for being grindy and at least they got that part correct.

In short, no, it is you who is full of shit.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

It's worse than that, they actually yield NEGATIVE gil because of the cost of repairs for clearing them. You're punished by clearing them and receive absolutely nothing for your effort.

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You receive the right to challenge the boss.

would be nice if they would have focused on something more important (like auto inventory sort) and saved this for 2.1 (rather than auto inventory sort).

so let's say you have all mobs drop gil in proportion to the repair cost of your gear used to killing said mob. so when you finish killing n number of mobs the n number of gil gained is equal to the amount to repair the gear. What's the point of having gear repair? If you were going to do that - why not just eliminate gear dmg/repair?

as if you need an extra incentive to kill so called trash mobs, they are an obstacle to the boss. Disposing the obstacles grants you access to the boss. they would be considered trash if they didn't pose a threat and you could simply walk by them on the way to the boss.

speed runs, hard mode, etc.
another way of adding challenges. although i'd prefer if SE just created a harder or shorter time duration instance then what they had before of beating a certain time. That way you can queue up with players with the same goal, and not have once instance with players all trying to do different things.

i'm really trying to understand the gripe here, do you just want it easy? or do you want every little ounce of effort you put in to be rewarded with gil and items? if yes, then what is the point of playing this game or any game if there are no challenges/obstacles?

can players accept that there's content beyond their skill level/playing time duration? or must SE create content that must be accessible to all skill levels with play times minimums of 1hour per day?

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Originally Posted by Holyhunter

Are you really implying that killing the trash is harder than the speedruns? You could probably just auto attack the trash to death. At least speedruns require some miniscule amount of thought from the tank. If you can't make it past the trash in AK, then i don't know how you made it past the trash in sastasha.

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Yes, let's compare current trash mechanics to exploited attempts to circumvent a not-intended way of running dungeons. Half the tanks I hear can't tank more than 1 mob because their threat is garbage. Sounds like they need to work on their tanking skills if they want a shot at a boss.