A Complete NM Experience.

From start to finish, I would like to outline my ideal experience of a NM hunt. Some of the ideas I will draw from have come from other games or other posters on these forums. I will then organize the ideas from start to finish from a player's perspective. I feel that a hypothetical monster is needed to fully establish what a perfect hunt could be. For this I will use a Giant Turtle.

Suppose Square-Enix just implemented this Giant Turtle, which I will name Gargantoise... He makes his home not far from Camp Blood Shore, down on the beaches. After discovering this massive beast, an adventurer would quickly discover this is a task better suited for a group of players.

Gargantoise migrated from the far east, across the Sea of Jade, and has some experience in dispatching adventurers to an early grave. As a result Gargantoise has developed an arsenal of deadly techniques.

As the adventurers engage Gargantoise, they soon learn this to be true. Gargantoise quickly retreats into his shell blocking himself from all damage physical and magical. He stores up his stamina until he is ready to go on his rampage. Suddenly his legs sprout out and his head emerges. Although his attention has been drawn to the shiny man wearing a bucket on his head, he periodically lashes out at those trying to damage his limbs and soft underbelly.

After a few minutes Gargantoise exhausts himself and retreats into his shell, pondering his next move. The adventurer's seem ready to handle his next rampage, but Gargantoise is clever. He makes a break for the ocean. Despite the Adventurers' efforts Gargantoise makes it into the water and dives. After a few moments, Gargantoise appears once again. This time an entire party of Sahagin have come to aid Gargantoise. An archer sits upon his shell striking any who seek to harm their friend, and a group of warriors stand ready to aid in Gargantoise's defense. The adventurer's must quickly adapt and deal with all their new foes in addition to Gargantoise. Once the Sahagin are defeated, the adventurers seek to take down Gargantoise once and for all.

Luckily for Gargantoise, his journey to the deeps of the ocean was not only for aid. Gargantoise stored an enourmous amount of water deep within his belly. Using his throat and powerful muscles he begins to shoot the water out at extremely high pressure. The adventurers try to avoid the spray, but not all are successful. Once again exhausted Gargantoise senses one more trip to the ocean will finish off these adventurers. He scuttles along the beach as quickly as he can, but the adventurer's are on to him. They quickly group together and incapacitate his hind legs, preventing Gargantoise from advancing. Gargantoise flinching in pain retreates once again to his shell, yet the adventurer's are persistent. They break through his shell and start damaging his soft insides.

Gargantoise in his weakened state senses fear for the first time. He emerges from his shell and lashes out on one final rampage. Adrenaline begins flooding his veins and his speed and stamina are increased two fold. No longer will he retreat to his shell. Gargantoise, in his fury, beings attacking in ways no rational turtle could imagine. He begins raising his forelegs up and stomps, sending a shockwave in front of him. He spins out of control, damaging and knocking back anyone within range. But the adventurers continue to persist, and eventually incapacitate his forelegs and cutting off his tail. After a few minutes, Gargantoise is completely exhausted, unable to return to the safety of his shell, he staggers about and limps along the beach. Finally an adventurer swiftly deals the final blow. Ending Gargantoise's dominance.

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After the battle, the adventurers take account of the spoils. A tail, hides, a thick shell and a smooth sample of his underbelly. From these the adventurers craft an interesting set of Tortoise-esque armor and a shield capable of withstanding even an onslaught of a dragon.

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My point in writing this was hopefully to attract some attention from S-E. Right now the battles are to put it bluntly, boring. And all the game needs is some coding, maybe it's already in the engine, to allow for some scripted sequences. But FFXIV is 100% capable of this kind of content.

"Gargantoise flinching in pain retreates once again to his shell, yet the adventurer's are persistent. They break through his shell and start damaging his soft insides." :D love it

Indeed, whats needed more then anything right now are more possibilities that take on all different sorts of routes, and not being limited to only a few things ...

I can synthetize your post with

phase1 normal damage
phase2 summon adds
phase3 water attack

It's similar to NM's crab if not for phase2.
it seems fun because it is well written but in game terms, I'll spam dps for the combat, exactly as I normally do.
Why? because I don't have tools (skills) for a different tactic. I can move outside an aoe attack (example NM gnat prince of pestilence) or move behind (old6arms), but I cannot interrupt a skill, CC an add, dispel a buff...

Well, I tried to break it up into some phases on purpose, but not as you described it.

First is as you said, a normal phase of sorts with basic abilities. Within this phase is a set of scripted actions that repeat over time or at certain percentages of health. Retreating into his shell creates a momentary lull in battle, which allows time out of his shell to be much more dangerous than an average monster. Then periodically diving into the water to bring adds, also a lull and a change in pace to the battle which requires a different set of tactics and allows the battle to be a tad longer but not a marathon snore fest. The water attack would simply be to make sure the adds are dealt with swiftly, as adds + water attack may kill the adventurers. Then finally a soft enrage of sorts at the end of the battle that puts the adventurer's survival skills to the test. It would be short, require movement/positioning and awareness of the abilities used. But shortly thereafter, Gargantoise would tire and become essentially defenseless.

This then repeats under normal circumstances, but you then have the ability to lock out skills by incapacitating certain limbs. For example, retreating into his shell becomes pointless once you break open a part of his shell. Then he would no longer be able to dive into the water after crippling his legs. And I don't believe I added this, but certainly incapacitating his head could remove his water ability.

This then brings up choices, which are necessary to having tactics. Which limbs do we target first? Are we better suited to deal with the adds, is the water attack too dangerous, or is the shell retreat going to limit our damage and cause an enrage?

You are right, certain monsters do have similar capabilities, which is why I felt the game is already capable of implementing an encounter like this. If we take a look at Elder Mosshorn & Great Buffalo, for example, we see these exact mechanics in use, yet they have very little impact on the battle itself.

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it seems fun because it is well written but in game terms, I'll spam dps for the combat, exactly as I normally do.

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I think when we look at certain classes, particularly melee damage dealers, they indeed limited by their role. Your only purpose is to deal damage, but this in turn requires you stay alive as well. So then we have two possible actions available, survival and damage.

Your only available option then is to make each of these tactics as interesting as possible.

There's probably a lot of potential ways to do this, all I can do is try to outline why the example I gave does so:

Going ability by ability...

Shell Retreat
First, as the others undoubtedly will, this ability can serve to enhance both tactcs. As all NMs seem to have an enrage timer of sorts, an ability that reduces the damage taken will lead to longer battles. Thus survival may depend on whether or not Gargantoise is capable of using this ability throughout the encounter. The specific tactic in this case would revolve around DPS positioning themselves and using certain abilities in incapacitate his shell. This then serves to enhance the role of DPS, as they then must use positioning and the tactics of incapacitation to win.

Diving for Adds
Gargantoise would initiate this event by first moving towards the water. The first tactic involved as a group would be to fight Gargantoise as far away from the water as possible. The second would be to prevent him from reaching the water. This would fall on the DPS to handle, by crippling their legs they could stop him from doing so. The tactic involved would require a shift from another tactic; from breaking his shell to moving to the rear and trying to cripple his legs. The purpose of this is to cause the DPS to move and reposition themselves to react to certain conditions, as opposed to constantly standing in one point to fulfill one tactic, (example breaking Elder Mosshorn's horns). If the adventurer's succeed they are rewarded by not having to deal with adds, but if they fail the event would continue bringing more tactics into the encounter. Once Gargantoise dives, this then gives a moment of suspense and preparation. As Gargantoise emerges, the tank obviously will take the task of handling him, yet the adds will fall on the rest of the group. While DPS classes would be capable of tanking these adds and killing them, casters can CC (Gravity/Bind/Sleep) and deal with them as they please. In addition ranged classes would be necessary for handling the archer sitting atop Gargantoise. Tactics involved in this phase of the event involve burning down adds quickly in order to shift damage back to Gargantoise, and also giving the casters/dps a reason to use tanking/CC skills they would not normally need.

Water Attack
As I stated above, the water attack is primarily intented to ensure the adds become a priority. It is supposed to apply extra pressure (pun intended :D) on the adventurers in order to accomplish this. While at the same time, the DPS may also decide this ability is too dangerous, and may choose to target the head instead of other limbs in order to remove this ability.

Soft Enrage
The soft enrage is intended to put survival skills to the test. In this case, Gargantoise would have two new skills. First, the stomp ability would be directed at the tank; but, also require the other players to position themselves carefully, as the stomp creates a shockwave in its wake. Then the spinning attack would require the DPS to move away periodically, as they attempt to bring Gargantoise down from his adrenaline induced rage. After either enough damage has been dealt, or after a brief period of time, adventurers would be rewarded by a weakened Gargantoise. The final moments are purely for immersion, as Gargantoise stumbles about, limping along the beach, the adventurer's have won at this point and all that is necessary is the final blow.

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I suppose this became rather long winded; my point though, I wanted to show how while these mechanics are in place currently, and you are correct to point out that tactics are limited but they can also be expanded by creating choices, they are not currently being used together to create situations where choices are necessary. My hope is that the developer's will begin combining these various battle mechanics: Incapacitation, enrages, skills, and scripting; and breathe more life into the dull battles that we are currently attempting to enjoy.

Edit: I suppose I should add; the overall design of a monster like Gargantoise involves creating a monster, whose abilities are very potent, and if nothing is done to it, it cannot be beaten. Thus it creates a scenario, whereby the adventurers are required to use tactics and make certain choices in how and in the order of weakening him. And in doing so, the strategy is then paramount in determining the difficulty of the battle, and each strategy essentially is a different encounter.

I have understood you point of view. Actually, there are issues doing that.

1. CC does not work...
bind is useless.
silence is almost useless, monsters uses TP skills.
stun is useful, but it can miss (!), it has long cooldown, FF14 uses a turn based combat, so I often uses stun AFTER the enemy's skill is casted (aka= I'm not able to interrupt properly).
Paralyze is "so-so", unpredictable (does it work? when?)
The only CC' skill working is sleep. sleep lasts enough, it has a good chance to work, a good area of effect.
A fight where we need to control adds will fail easily or succeed only for luck/unluck. This must be addressed

2. ..is it important?
Moreover, every tactic is worthless with the current battle system, because we got a trump card: battle regimen.

3. Do you like long fights?
Did you have kill the ghost NM in cassiopea? it disappears and heals itself, and the fight is longer than usual. Well, my LS's mates hate it for that reason, they prefer a faster fight like cactuar jack, for example.


However, I think SE will add something like you describe in raids and dungeons, but first of all, SE should change skills, CC, positioning, remove turns in combat, add special skill's effects on monster (no more red fog), add a TP/MP/buff bars over monsters... If not, the idea is good but the fight will be still confused.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Gyactus

3. Do you like long fights?
Did you have kill the ghost NM in cassiopea? it disappears and heals itself, and the fight is longer than usual. Well, my LS's mates hate it for that reason, they prefer a faster fight like cactuar jack, for example.

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I think the reason most people hate Unknown Soldier is because when he disappears you lose your target lock and have to manually re-target him again when he reappears. This becomes very annoying over the course of a single battle.

On-topic: I think that fight sounds fantastic. If anything at least it's more interesting than the standard NM fight of just beat the crap out of it until it goes down.

The team in charge of designing monsters and encounters should take a look at Monster Hunter though. The creatures you take down in Monster Hunter generally make use of every part of their body in one attack or another. For instance most of the wyverns use their tail, claws, teeth in most attacks as well as their entire body for some. Then they have their specific attacks ranging from fireballs and poisonous gas to burrowing or climbing on walls. Point being there's a wide variety of attacks for each of them and they're constantly moving around. Because of that the battle doesn't become stale and boring.

I really like the idea of using the environment to help script the encounters like a story, when the turtle retreats into the sea and returns with sahagin soldiers this part sounds really cool, not just an NM who summons helpers but rather a realistic monster who calls forth the adds in an area to take up arms against its foe.

Make it so that not all the boss fights are stationary and players have to move around to avoid taking damage from various factors: Boss special attack, environmental changes, etc.

^ do this and you have my vote.

Also... This sounds like you just took Aspidochelone and gave it a WoW spin. I approve though.

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Make it so that not all the boss fights are stationary and players have to move around to avoid taking damage from various factors: Boss special attack, environmental changes, etc.

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Also... This sounds like you just took Aspidochelone and gave it a WoW spin. I approve though.

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I think you nailed one point right on the head, and WoW has been leaning towards what I am essentially suggesting. Stationary boss fights that last a very long time are the WORST battles.

Movement, using the environment, and scripting ( something WoW uses ) to add depth to the fights is a step foward. FFXIV has these capabilities. We've seen in leves where monsters run, Moles that burrow underground, and, as mentioned before, gnats that dissapear and reappear.

Aspid was a boring fight though lol. He is a giant turtle sure, but... not necessarily the most interesting encounter around.

Yeah it was an incredibly boring, stationary fight that lasts 2 minutes. ;/

Get it in shell > Do skillchain > 13 BLMs use Blizzaga III > Get D.feeted

I would love to see future encounters in this game take a tip from the WoW playbook. People like to talk shit about WoW or say "omg don't copy that easy game!" but theres a reason that game is still standing and trouncing the competition - and its end-game gets most of the credit for that.

I hope they look at this. What you wrote was incredible and is exactly what I want to happen. I don't like this short, boring fights. Bring back those long, ridiculous fights FFXI had.

I kind of feel bad for Gargantoise but at the same time, FFXIV needs battles like this for both large and small parties. :)