Healers: Leading the party. Anybody else?

Alright! So, for time immemorial in MMO's, it's been a thing. The tank leads and lets everyone else in the party know how they want things done. Problem in this game in particular, is that the tanks absolutely suck balls.

Playing a healer most of the time, I usually just dull myself out and follow along, speaking up if I've got a better idea or know how things can be done better. However, again in this game, I'm finding it far more frequent where I am actually the one leading the party. Obviously no the mob encounters - what, I'm gonna' charge in? - but the strategical and tactical side of things is all on me.

( Breaking the post up for the character limit )

I'm the one calling out adds, AoE's, skill timers, assigning tasks around the party, and organising the pre-battle gameplan... and somehow managing this while keeping everybody else alive with what is probably the most stressful role in the party as it is. It doesn't bother me, but it.. disappoints me? It feels like your dad when he's just about given up on you being able to ride a bike without the training wheels. It's your mother when you fail an exam. Your lover the first time you screw up cunnilingus.

It's not outrage as much as, ".. Oh, come on. Really? Do I have to do it? This is something you are meant to be learning do. Just because I can doesn't mean you should be relying on me."

And it hasn't really hit home that it was even a thing until last night where I tried doing Sunken Temple for the first time (And still have yet to do) with a PuG. First boss, we couldn't do it. I was the one calling out bees, Doom timers, and ordering everybody to their respective things. Which the DPS seemed to forget about the frelling bees, anyway.

I'm a Scholar healer. In this fight specifically, I'm overloaded as it is - I've got to not only get myself to a glowing pedestal, but command my Faerie onto it as well, which takes a bit of focus with an over-cluttered UI that leaves me with about two millimetres of clicking-area. I can't babysit an entire group, the mentally handicapped AI, heal, and look around for the impossible to see glowing pedestal (When the AoE's are flying and added to the mix is poor eyesight, it's abhorrent trying to find which one's glowing. Especially with THu'uM AoE's. Like there was last night!).

Tanks: Do your job! You're leading the show, not me!

Any others healers experienced this type of thing? Bothered, stressed, etcetera? I should reiterate - it doesn't bother me or stress me out or anything! But it's not my job to do it. It isn't my job description!

lol, you just made four posts about this?

I think the server being down is hitting some people harder than others.

Glad I am not alone on this.

I've led at least 75% of the groups I've been with. I have to be the one to explain the strategy, do the marking, pull the appropriate mobs, call out adds, call out boss moves, call out when someone is trapped in something, tank, bring down adds, and so on. It's frustrating because it takes my attention away from more important things (moving away in time) as I have to type and I should not have to be responsible for ALL of the aforementioned duties. Geez people, learn to look after yourselves!

I've had this only when people don't know the fights.. But I haven't reached 50 yet so I can't help with that :(
I have noticed however they're are a lot of tanks and dps who don't care how fights work.. That's always fun..

Maybe it's just coincidence, but I've had similar experiences. Even sometimes where the tank tries to lead and explain, but they are just flat wrong and I have to pick up the pieces. There isn't really much to be done about this, though. And as long as we get things done, I guess there isn't much of a point to complain. Just saying with this post, "Hey, me too."

Lets face it. The pro-ass tanks that take the lead and know what they're doing, already have their static groups and their pocket healers and don't queue alone. We don't get to play with those tanks when we queue in DF. ;_;

We queue mainly with the new guys who are still learning, and we end up being the ones to teach them. Rest assured, that once we have taught them, they will go on to find their own pocket healer on their own server and will never need us again.

That said, most of my experiences in DF have been good ones. I choose to explain things before hand, usually doing a rundown of boss mechanics before we engage, and taking it from there. I just present the mechanics, during the fight itself I usually don't call things. I concentrate on my job, and pray that the others in my party will concentrate on theirs. Thankfully, this is what usually happens, and I've had more good experiences than bad.

I do love running across the odd badass tank that knows exactly what he's doing and just wants you to sit back and heal like a good little healer, though. It always makes for a much more relaxing dungeon.

I share your pain. How often does your party run into battle without buffs. I just want them to die once, but I know that if they do, I'll be blamed because I didn't heal them... I've come to terms with the simple fact, healers are under appreciated, and disrespected. It's only when the party is at the brink of death, and we land that all so needed cure, that we get even remote praise... or, "I almost died, you suck". One day, I'm just going to drop the controller. "Oops, my hand slipped, sorry"

Anyways, that aside, I like to be the party tactician as well. I constantly am panning around the field, looking for threats, helping to sleep adds, checking time, assessing progress, oh crap, CURE 2 GOOOOOO, shew. It may as well be the healer leading, or rather, navigating, with the tank driving. Never, NEVER let the DDs drive though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shmashed

lol, you just made four posts about this?

I think the server being down is hitting some people harder than others.

---

Well I agree that the issue is that bad.

90% of my Duty Finders are bad tanks and I would say thats being generous.

The compounding issue to it though is because some classes that can be tanks if they choose to be can also DPS, so they queue up as a tank without the intention of tanking, suck at not only tanking in general but have no morale obligation of leading the group or care for it.

I'm with you, as a SCH I often find myself leading PUGs unless the tank is competent (fairly uncommon).
I don't mind it so much, but what I do mind is bad tanks backtalking me when I give them tips to play their role better.

Welcome to being a healer, thing is though, there's nothing stopping you from finding a competent person on your server that likes tanking, helping them build themselves up, and creating your own pocket tank. That's essentially what I've done, I've surrounded myself with about 4 good tanks that I would heal through anything, and they trust me to heal them through the most chaotic situations. At one point I had a 3 tank 1 healer dungeon run, that was fun times, slow, but easy and fun since they were people I enjoyed being with.

TLDR; Find and mentor a tank (or multiple tanks) on your server to be your tank.

Yeah, as a WHM healer, I feel that healers should be leading PUGs more, especially if you're knowledgable. Teaching new tanks where to tank, what to interrupt, etc will make your job easier (allowing you to dps more).

Also, if you're on the search for good tanks, it is generally a good idea to "network" and add good tanks you come across to your friends list.

It's not that uncommon for either to take the lead really.

Healers do tend to have a bird's eye view of the fight though so it makes sense for us to make calls if the tank isn't making them.

I'll be honest I felt the same way, I've been playing WHM since launch and really been enjoying it. I usually always tank and the change of pace was great! But I felt the tanks were just god awful... until I played it and found at least WAR to be insanely clunky and hard to play. Maybe its just not my style but this could be what other tanks are struggling with... because its gotta be something because I've never seen tanks this bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alente

-snip-.

---

Aye, but in no other game has it ever been so drastic. If I've had to take the lead elsewhere, the tank takes it as the most dire insult I could possibly give them and they'll get into an argument about it. Even if the tank's new to a dungeon, I'll only have to call once, maybe twice, then they'll get the hint and take it back over.

And it's abnormal for a healer to lead for one reason: Healers are the one (Or two) member(s) of a group that cannot possibly be allowed to lose focus.

What happens if a DPS stares off at butterflies? You kill things slower. Boohoo.
The tank decides to run off and make a coffee mid-fight? Mobs run around everywhere, but it's not dire.
Healer takes an interest in some of the porn they forgot to exit out of? The fight's screwed. They're dead, Jim.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kusumura

Aye, but in no other game has it ever been so drastic. If I've had to take the lead elsewhere, the tank takes it as the most dire insult I could possibly give them and they'll get into an argument about it. Even if the tank's new to a dungeon, I'll only have to call once, maybe twice, then they'll get the hint and take it back over.

And it's abnormal for a healer to lead for one reason: Healers are the one (Or two) member(s) of a group that cannot possibly be allowed to lose focus.

What happens if a DPS stares off at butterflies? You kill things slower. Boohoo.
The tank decides to run off and make a coffee mid-fight? Mobs run around everywhere, but it's not dire.
Healer takes an interest in some of the porn they forgot to exit out of? The fight's screwed. They're dead, Jim.

---

You're certainly right that DPS losing focus in most fights, bar the DPS races of Titan etc, is pretty inconsequential.

A tank spacing out not being dire though? WHMs in particular can easily pull massive amounts of threat, a tank not paying attention on when to use their CDs to reduce the amount of healing we need to do can easily result in a potential wipe with endgame content especially at the start of a fight. There's also the need to grab adds, position, correctly time interrupts, and dodge hard hitting cones/aoes/etc. Hell certain fights a tank not being on point (Hydra) can get everyone killed pretty fast.

Don't get me wrong; I do see Healers (myself included) taking charge a lot in this game but that doesn't mean we're the only ones with a hard job to do during fights.

In most MMOs I've usually mained healers and I've found this to be true more often than not. I've tanked and healed before, and found it easier to keep track of things when I'm healing versus tanking. As a tank you're up in the front, and while there're may things you have to pay attention to, you've usually got your hands pretty full. As a healer you still have a lot to take care of, however; it's easier to keep track of everything when you're sitting in the back, and can keep an eye on everything all at once.

In this I feel like I tend to be keeping my eye out for everything, calling for pats, marking targets, usually taking on the "tactician" role as it's been stated.

This game is really unforgiving to the tank. It's super hard to hold aggro on 3+ mobs, and impossible when the DPS start fighting the mobs the tank is not targeting. Then they expect him to get back aggro while refusing to pull back their dps or switch targets. Meanwhile, since the tank has now lost control of the mobs trying to get back aggro over the rogue dps, I suddenly have full emnity from trying to heal everyone and start to pray to the gods to save my ass.

If I'm throwing a huge amount of heals at a tank who lost control of a single mob then I'll let the DPS die, or at least watch them drop to 100 hp before throwing them a cure 2. They always seem to target the correct mob after getting raised.

I never try to lead - im to lazy to do marking and controling what tanks are pulling and what stuff should be cced. I only assist on boss fights which i already know. First i ask if ppl know any proper tactics - if not i try to give them general view of the fight. Sometimes when adds must die pronto - i inform group that they just spawned. It's for my own comfort.
So far i havent faced trash that would wipe my groups, even if mobs are aggroed by my heals i can keep my self up or sleep them and there is always helpfull shroud of saints.

If the tank knowes what he has to do, i let him handle everything, if he is just a brick i take controll.

This is one of the reasons I didn't start as tank. People have these beliefs that the tank should lead / tactical briefing / call the adds / mark the targets / call the AoEs. But this doesn't have to be true.

Tank expectation to strike the first blow, defend party, positioning, and survive, but leadership is not one of them.

The healer gets to survey the entire battle, seeing where folks are taking damage, where enemies / adds are coming from (usually cause we're worried about them the most), and get to see who isn't avoiding the avoidables, who has what ailment, etc. The lives of their party typically in their hands, versus maybe a DPS role that may be focused on their meter, or the tank, just making sure he's holding enmity and keeping healer synergy.

But that doesn't stop the DPS or tank roles from paying attention to the same things. But it seems to affect the healer more, especially when folks start blaming the healer for the party's deaths. (And perhaps it's that pressure of setting party expectation, which may end up as guiding/tutorial mode).

I think anyone can guide/mark/tactical briefing. Like I says, I don't expect this from the tank anymore, but I realize many folks may have this expectation should I play a tank. If one plays with "randoms", you won't get a good chance to party up again, but if you find folks from the same server, you can build a Ore reliable investment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

This is one of the reasons I didn't start as tank. People have these beliefs that the tank should lead / tactical briefing / call the adds / mark the targets / call the AoEs. But this doesn't have to be true.
...

---

Exactly.

Quote:

---

Alright! So, for time immemorial in MMO's, it's been a thing. The tank leads and lets everyone else in the party know how they want things done. Problem in this game in particular, is that the tanks absolutely suck balls.
...

---

I think you are referring to one specific MMO and WoW took the absolutely wrong approach to this.

The tank is important but the healer is the group.

I have no idea where this the tank is in charge bs came about, but as has been stated elsewhere the person paying the most attention to everything is the healer, always has been and always will be.

For those all important tanks, you are a meat shield. Nothing more, nothing less.

Maybe because we have quickier queues we get to do it more often than dps?

And been all the way in the back gives us a better view of the battlefield?

Well, I've lead twice so far, but only explainned it before fight and people managed to follow it, but again, I'm only lvl 27.

Tank should always lead the party. Healer should always direct the DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Tank should always lead the party. Healer should always direct the DPS.

---

Gonna bite the bait if serious. I disagree. The individual with the most experience with the content AND is a tolerant open-minded guide should lead. New tank shouldn't have to read the strategy guide / watch videos before going into content. He should be able to learn it without people placing their laziness and burdens on him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalagg

I think you are referring to one specific MMO and WoW took the absolutely wrong approach to this.
...
I have no idea where this the tank is in charge bs came about, but as has been stated elsewhere the person paying the most attention to everything is the healer, always has been and always will be.

---

Yes. The healer's attention is divided between everything. And no, it's not just WoW. SWTOR, Silkroad Online, SW:G, Allods Online, rah rah rah. The tank leads because the tank is the first man in, which gives him control over how things are going to play out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

The individual with the most experience with the content AND is a tolerant open-minded guide should lead... -snip- people placing their laziness and burdens on him.

---

True that it should be the individual with the most experience, false with it being about laziness and burdens. As I said above, the tank is the first man in. He's got control over all the mobs in a fight. Granted, FFXIV might have dropped the ball a little with the tank's ability to keep aggro, but the point is still valid.

The healer does not have control of a fight. Yes, the healer is in a prime position to notice everything that's going on - but that's information for themselves. I can't tell you how many times a tank has nearly or has actually died because I've had to start typing out the party's current status and actions. Which is why the healer should not be the leader. The DPS are all.. mindless, so that cancels them out, too. Guess who's left?

as Ranged dps i dont mind calling things , healers have already a hard job as its , having to watch the game and the UI (health bars + debuffs) is more than enough , if healers have to lead on top of that :X

I wouldn't like to tarnish every tank with the same brush, because I have had a literal two amazing tanks, I am also sure there are many other tanks out there that are also good at there chosen class. However the rest of the tanks I have had in dungeons have been absolutely shocking.

I had one that point blank refused to accepted that I had three adds hitting me which killed me. He said he "had agro" on everything because he checked the "traffic light system", apparently meaning I died to thin air and those three mobs were a figment of my imagination. Since then I have been a bit more forward with making sure the tank picks up adds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warlyx

as Ranged dps i dont mind calling things , healers have already a hard job as its , having to watch the game and the UI (health bars + debuffs) is more than enough , if healers have to lead on top of that :X

---

You're that one in a million DPS that takes after my own heart that I absolutely love and adore. <3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kurauk

I had one that point blank refused to accepted that I had three adds hitting me which killed me. He said he "had agro" on everything because he checked the "traffic light system", apparently meaning I died to thin air and those three mobs were a figment of my imagination. Since then I have been a bit more forward with making sure the tank picks up adds.

---

Think I bumped into the same bloke, funnily enough. I resolved to not healing the prick and just healing myself and the DPS that was drawing the most aggro (Once the tank had died. Repeatedly).

I think it's just due to new players almost never select a healing role as their 1st.

The very best was a marauder I had that wore Foestriker's. In Brayflox. so practically every hit had him at 25% health. I was so proud of myself for not letting him die, then he came out with; "ur a shitty healer I'm always below 50%." I waved /goodbye, and left the duty. I can't manage jerks, and it was a reminder to not bother with tanks other than the one in my static. Which gears properly.

In my opinion, every role is responsible for their station. But I believe the healer is suppose to be the most aware of everything going on and has the most control over everything. Marking targets aside (its just a means to cater to people who don't pay attention) good dps and tanks can see whats happening and adjust accordingly. As the heals, I initiate most trash pulls for my FC. I sleep mobs I don't wanna deal with. I prioritize who to kill based on my observation of the dps and damage the tank is able to sustain. Cuz frankly the healer is the only one that knows how much punishment the tank can endure since we are the ones throwing up heals, he is focused on saving lives and keeping hate. If that means 2 mobs or 5 mobs he's just bashing away disregarding if the healer is in a bind or not. But that's just me, healing has always provided the best point of observation which is critical when your doing end game elitist status sorta stuff.

I actually find the most common raid leader is a DPS, not a tank. Tanks tend to be very good at keeping track of timers, and healers tend to always know where their party members are. Dps on the other hand are open to seeing a bit of everything. However. I do not feel the ANY class makes the best raid leader. What is important is a good leader as the player, not the class. Some one who knows how the game works, can work well with people and takes the time to figure out what needs to get done is a better leader then a great tank. You can be great at your roll, but not so great as a leader. Thus, a healer can easily fit as a good leader.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kusumura

True that it should be the individual with the most experience, false with it being about laziness and burdens. As I said above, the tank is the first man in. He's got control over all the mobs in a fight. Granted, FFXIV might have dropped the ball a little with the tank's ability to keep aggro, but the point is still valid.

The healer does not have control of a fight. Yes, the healer is in a prime position to notice everything that's going on - but that's information for themselves. I can't tell you how many times a tank has nearly or has actually died because I've had to start typing out the party's current status and actions. Which is why the healer should not be the leader. The DPS are all.. mindless, so that cancels them out, too. Guess who's left?

---

And how well does your man do without healing? The healer is in control regardless of your foolish thought process. He determines who lives and who dies, not the tank.

I've been leading as well! I mean, I'll go up to a mob waiting for the tank to pull, and the tank just stands there.. GO PULL THEM DAMNIT! Geez...

I don't mind leading the party, as long as the tank knows to aggro first. But if I keep havign to stop and type during boss fights.. as a healer, those 2 seconds you take to type could be the difference between life and death of an unfortunate party member.


I'm always the one marking targets, telling DPS to use limit break, telling DPS to move out of red, telling DPS to go hit w/e mechanic the boss has etc, etc.. -.-

Tank has plenty of time to type something, because the tank has auto-attack. Healer's don't have auto-heal. (Unless you're a Scholar, haha)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalagg

And how well does your man do without healing? The healer is in control regardless of your foolish thought process. He determines who lives and who dies, not the tank.

---

And without the meat shield there to take your bullets, you die in two seconds against a mob. And you can counter that line. And someone else can counter that one. And so on and so forth.

The point is, no one survives without each other. The tank doesn't survive without the healer and the DDs. The DDs don't survive without the tank and the healer. The healer doesn't survive without the tank and the DDs. We all need each other equally. Any attempt at trying to one up to define a superior place in a party is just needless posturing that does nothing but blow hot air around. And I live in LA. I have enough hot air to deal with as it is, from both environment and population.