THM Threat Issues

Alright I'm trying to figure out what is triggering such massive threat where NO tank can hold my threat that well. Some obviously are way worse than others. I had one gladiator tank I was paying really close attention on and I noticed something very odd. A Lancer I was partied with that actually does pretty decent damage was outputting only SLIGHTLY more threat than me when I only cast 2 spells (Thunder and Aero). Once I have these DoTs on, I proceed to use my fireball rotation and rip threat like I'm a delicious strip of bacon thrown among a pack of rabid half starved pit bulls. This happens even when I wait for ten seconds!

I'm level 25. My average fireball hits non-crit 90, 120, 140 (no aspect, rank 1, rank 2).

If I crit, there's no saving me really.

That being all said, I'm not looking for a "Watch your threat meter." I'm looking for a discussion on why I have such retarded high enmity.

This seems to get better as you level. At 47 dungeons I find tanks are able to hold threat more often then not. You can cross class into archer and get Quelling Strikes to help things out a bit.

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Originally Posted by HoroBoro

This seems to get better as you level. At 47 dungeons I find tanks are able to hold threat more often then not. You can cross class into archer and get Quelling Strikes to help things out a bit.

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I'm having the opposite experience, ever since I got firestarter at 44 I can't seem to lose agro even after waiting forever. I've ran across probably 2 good tanks that can hold agro.

low level tanks have less enmity building abilities. THM/BLM also has pretty high burst, especially if they get lucky with firestarter and thundercloud procs (although you don't have that at your level)
I recommend getting Quelling Strikes from archer at level 34

I was thinking about Quelling Strikes, but it's only a reduction for 15 seconds out of 120 seconds... Like i said, I pull off in seconds flat, so should I not be using Aero? Thunder? More thumb up butt?

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Originally Posted by Moxiesan

I was thinking about Quelling Strikes, but it's only a reduction for 15 seconds out of 120 seconds... Like i said, I pull off in seconds flat, so should I not be using Aero? Thunder? More thumb up butt?

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use it at the beginning of the fight, thats the hardest time for the tank to get threat

Yeah there's that, but I mean, I've waited out full phases of bosses then attacked the next phase and pull. Ughhh it's just disheartening at lower levels i guess.

honestly, the problem could be more with the tanks at that level. I stopped playing WAR for a while to level up PGL/MNK, and 9/10 tanks i got really had no clue how combos or threat worked. around level 30-40 they seem to grow out of it as the tanks i got drastically improved around there, but it's definitely something i'd take into account.

a tank SHOULD be able to hold aggro on any DPS in any dungeon, if my experiences up to lvl 40 as a MRD/WAR have taught me anything. leveling gladiator to 22, my threat did feel pretty gimp during that time, but at 26 it should get better with their combo finisher.

There is hope to the future! Lol, good to know, well I guess i'll just keep fireballin away. If you see a Corwin Eldred pull threat... I'M SORRRRRRRY in advance :)

As a thm its your job to keep your aggro within reasonable limits. Not all tanks are amazing but it wont help them hold aggro if you keep pulling. Use the threat meter included to remain safe.

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Originally Posted by Marveth

As a thm its your job to keep your aggro within reasonable limits. Not all tanks are amazing but it wont help them hold aggro if you keep pulling. Use the threat meter included to remain safe.

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Please read post. If I keep my threat within reasonable limits then all I'm doing is casting 2 DoT's and 1 to 2 at most fireballs. That's it.

Are you sleeping mobs that you are not fighting? Else the tank might need to build aggro on several mobs at time.
If you can only cast two dots and 1 fireball on a boss where tank just need to build aggro then something is wrong. Have you checked how much hate aero builds? I don't think its worth casting really, its a gimped thunder that won't proc and steal mp.

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Originally Posted by Moxiesan

Please read post. If I keep my threat within reasonable limits then all I'm doing is casting 2 DoT's and 1 to 2 at most fireballs. That's it.

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Sorry, but obviously you never had ONE good Tank.

If you have to wait a full phase before you can do some damage and STILL get aggro, then it looks like your Tanks are playing soccer with their balls or something.

For what it's worth, I noticed that ever since I added aero and thunder to my ACN rotation, I out-threat my yellow carby (AKA "the darn thing that steals tank aggro in dungeons") in a fairly consistent fashion.

If I start the battle as I always did in the past, casting my dots and letting carby auto-aggro and steal threat from me (which he did easily in the past), then the moment I finish my 4 DoTs and start spamming Ruin (80 potency direct damage, woo), my thread spikes up hard and I will pull aggro. If I start the battle by commanding him to attack and then start casting only once he's over there and hitting it, then I can nuke down a regular mob of my level full force without drawing aggro before it dies (but the threat meter is usually dark orange and flashing at that point). If it's not a regular mob (like a FATE boss), I need to abstain from Ruin almost completely or get used to punches to the face. In dundeons, when the tank falls, the enemy immediately makes a beeline for me, no questions asked (Hi Ifrit, y so serious? eep!).

For the record, I'm now a level 24 in level 15-16 gear aside for a level 20 robe and weapon. No materia.

I wonder if something's up with thunder and/or aero...

As a 44 PLD I've never had a BLM pull hate off my primary marked target, boss or otherwise, unless I am forced to apply a full 5 sec threat rotation (fast blade->savage blade->halone) on an add/secondary mob that someone unloaded on (annoyingly common, but less likely in the 40's).

I do have to fight BLM threat on 3 or 4 packs of mobs with half or more of my MP via flashes and constant tab targeting to spread my threat combo around when BLMs go AOE heavy. This can become a close competition if the BLM is level synced down for a dungeon and I'm not or they outgear me (rare). I'm sure the WARs have it easier here with more AOE taunt.

I'v always wondered, and perhaps I should level up a BLM to understand myself, are your AOE rotations that much better than your single target variations? As a PLD, a BLM that mass sleeps makes content scream by. It's almost yawn worthy how easy it is to efficiently clear a dungeon with a BLM using sleep.

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Originally Posted by mooney6023

I'v always wondered, and perhaps I should level up a BLM to understand myself, are your AOE rotations that much better than your single target variations?

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No, our AOE damage is sub par compared to single target. You need 4+ mobs to make the damage worth it. I was not even aware there are BLMs who favor AOE over sleeping. It just seems like such an obvious choice.
Sleeping however requires little bit of disciplin from other party members. It's not that hard but some people just can't handle it for some reason.

As a BLM I rarely group with other BLMs so I can't say how others play but the first thing I do after a Tank marks and pulls is to sleep all mobs, then I allow tank to wake up the mob which we are going to kill first and then I start my DPS rotation. I have gotten a lot of praise for my methods so I am sticking too it. I'm used to sleeping as mage as I did the same in Aion and Tera so it's only natural for me.

Thanks, that's great to know. As a PLD tank I can't say enough that mass sleeping the pull makes my life wonderful. And yea, we've all dealt with the party members that seem to hit any mob but the tank's target/current mark.

Of course, when leveling WHM I also know that many tanks seem confused by the concept of aggro/hate and have no idea marking targets is in the game.

I'll go with the current popular forum punching bag and blame FATEs.

Ehh.. Depends on the level and the mobs. At lower levels until you get astral fire 2, aoe damage will do more as long as you have a 2nd mob.

Some mobs cannot be slept. For instance in the level 47 dungeon, I'm finding a lot of tanks marking mobs for sleep that just cannot be slept.

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Originally Posted by Ryuseki

I'm having the opposite experience, ever since I got firestarter at 44 I can't seem to lose agro even after waiting forever. I've ran across probably 2 good tanks that can hold agro.

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I guess good tanks really start to shine at higher levels. I just ran 3 yesterday. 2/3 could not hold aggro on Miser's Mistress. 1 lost aggro during blizz 2 spam on fruit adds. On both, I had to wait for yellow aggro or risk pulling with just 1 fire rotation. Mind boggling.

At level thirty, Marauder's can do a quest that gives them another enmity combo - Butcher's Block. That helps generate keep and hold hate. They can also go into the defiance stance, that helps generate even further hate.

I haven't had an issue with stealing hate ever since.

I just let some enemies purposely slip at times, because the scumbag healer or THM isn't sleeping the enemies.

Yeah, I had the same problem in low level dungeons, but as people say, it gets better as you level. Usually I had to swap between targets, like from an orange enmity to one at green, and then swap back to the other one. This gives tanks some time to build more enmity. To refresh Thunder is another good way to give tanks some time to gain enmity, without losing your DPS. At my current level, most of the times I can spam spells, even hard procs, without pulling aggro, but again, it depends on the tank! I pulled even Garuda now and then back in lv45 playing with bad tanks...