Is bard dps the weakest?

I've seen quite a bit of posts about monks, dragoons and summoners being the strongest DPS (a lot of posts about summoners now) but rarely anything about bards. Are they the weakest DPS class (though granted they are kind of support-ish but they were changed to be pure DPS)?

Do they not compete equally with other DPS classes or are they the subpar DPS class no one wants other than for MP regen?

... you are crazy.
Bards are one of the top DPS classes

In my experience I'm usually doing the most damage in my group. I don't really see the need for a thread about it personally.

Not to be biased, but I think Bards are a huge benefit to any party. They are fast, do pretty decent damage, and can attack while moving. In addition, the Bard songs are extremely useful. NOT the weakest DPS by far.

Well it's not that I'm crazy or anything, it's just that I see so many posts about other classes, specially summoners, that they are doing INSANE damage compared to other classes but I see none about bards which makes me wonder if bards are simply the lowest DPS class and no one wants to speak about them.

well lets see

a dps class that never has to get in range, doesn't have to stop attacking to move out of aoe, and has powerful support buffs AND strong personal dps

bards are too strong

^ i think that sums it up quite perfectly.

Well yes we can attack while moving but let's look at say summoners, they can cast DoTs and they will still tick while they are moving. Someone calculated their DPS:

To keep up all the DoT damage will take 42.5 seconds of GCD so I will get (60 - 42.5 = 17.5 / 2.5 = 7) casts of Ruin.

Ruin Damage = 160 * 7 (assume no critical) = 1120.

Total Damage = 1360 + 1440 + 1640 + 1560 + 1040 + 1725 + 3250 + 1120 = 13135 over 1 minute.

13135 / 60 seconds = 218 DPS with my current gear WITHOUT Raging Strikes, Rouse, Spur, or the Pet Ultimate. Half of you don’t know what you’re talking about.


Can bards even match that?

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Originally Posted by savant07

Well yes we can attack while moving but let's look at say summoners, they can cast DoTs and they will still tick while they are moving. Someone calculated their DPS:

To keep up all the DoT damage will take 42.5 seconds of GCD so I will get (60 - 42.5 = 17.5 / 2.5 = 7) casts of Ruin.

Ruin Damage = 160 * 7 (assume no critical) = 1120.

Total Damage = 1360 + 1440 + 1640 + 1560 + 1040 + 1725 + 3250 + 1120 = 13135 over 1 minute.

13135 / 60 seconds = 218 DPS with my current gear WITHOUT Raging Strikes, Rouse, Spur, or the Pet Ultimate. Half of you don’t know what you’re talking about.


Can bards even match that?

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let's wait for PVP to be enabled and let's see if those numbers count :)

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Originally Posted by blessed

let's wait for PVP to be enabled and let's see if those numbers count :)

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I'm strictly talking about PvE...

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Originally Posted by savant07

Well yes we can attack while moving but let's look at say summoners, they can cast DoTs and they will still tick while they are moving. Someone calculated their DPS:

To keep up all the DoT damage will take 42.5 seconds of GCD so I will get (60 - 42.5 = 17.5 / 2.5 = 7) casts of Ruin.

Ruin Damage = 160 * 7 (assume no critical) = 1120.

Total Damage = 1360 + 1440 + 1640 + 1560 + 1040 + 1725 + 3250 + 1120 = 13135 over 1 minute.

13135 / 60 seconds = 218 DPS with my current gear WITHOUT Raging Strikes, Rouse, Spur, or the Pet Ultimate. Half of you don’t know what you’re talking about.


Can bards even match that?

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That's correct in a perfect world, where the Summoner can just stand still and cast each DoT for 2.5 sec cast time without getting interrupted. Also keep in mind the first DoT tick usually does not go off due to the global tick timer and factor in all the other delays the damage reduces considerably.

DoTs tick every 3 seconds pretty much, in that amount of time a bard can shoot for just as much damage, with your crits youd be dealing even more.

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Originally Posted by savant07

Well yes we can attack while moving but let's look at say summoners, they can cast DoTs and they will still tick while they are moving. Someone calculated their DPS:

To keep up all the DoT damage will take 42.5 seconds of GCD so I will get (60 - 42.5 = 17.5 / 2.5 = 7) casts of Ruin.

Ruin Damage = 160 * 7 (assume no critical) = 1120.

Total Damage = 1360 + 1440 + 1640 + 1560 + 1040 + 1725 + 3250 + 1120 = 13135 over 1 minute.

13135 / 60 seconds = 218 DPS with my current gear WITHOUT Raging Strikes, Rouse, Spur, or the Pet Ultimate. Half of you don’t know what you’re talking about.


Can bards even match that?

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because this thread is about summoners

i know DMG parser its still weak but usually BRD are in the TOP of dmg list unless someone LB.

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Originally Posted by Kroktar

i know DMG parser its still weak but usually BRD are in the TOP of dmg list unless someone LB.

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"I know this tool to measure something isn't accurate like, at all, but according to that this is good!"

Yeah the parser sucks. It records DPS all over the place.

See, I can't seem to see them doing high damage compared to summoners, black mages or monks. Black mages and summoners have about way more weapon damage which translate to their potency being twice as better which then results them in doing 500 hits or DoTs ticking for 200-300. It's insane. So I'm wondering, how can bards compete if they hit for 200 on heavy shots and blood letters and those take 2.5 sec GCD (other than blood letter of course) but 200 for every 2.5 sec isn't really...strong. It's half of a black mages hit and equal to one DoT tick.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

"I know this tool to measure something isn't accurate like, at all, but according to that this is good!"

Yeah the parser sucks. It records DPS all over the place.

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Well...only if you used an early version of it maybe...but you can reset the DPS log before starting the boss.

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Originally Posted by savant07

Well yes we can attack while moving but let's look at say summoners, they can cast DoTs and they will still tick while they are moving. Someone calculated their DPS:

To keep up all the DoT damage will take 42.5 seconds of GCD so I will get (60 - 42.5 = 17.5 / 2.5 = 7) casts of Ruin.

Ruin Damage = 160 * 7 (assume no critical) = 1120.

Total Damage = 1360 + 1440 + 1640 + 1560 + 1040 + 1725 + 3250 + 1120 = 13135 over 1 minute.

13135 / 60 seconds = 218 DPS with my current gear WITHOUT Raging Strikes, Rouse, Spur, or the Pet Ultimate. Half of you don’t know what you’re talking about.


Can bards even match that?

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Here's an idea, if you're going to quote someone's numbers, make sure their math is right.

The person you're quoting numbers from somehow got all of their dots--every single one--to tick 19 times in 1 minute. This is impossible if you're starting from scratch. There's just no way mathematically to make that make sense.

Subtracting out their mysterious extra dot tics, I get the following numbers, taking into account that poster's 5% crit rate:

Bio II + Miasma + Thunder = 3,770 damage (Bio II and Miasma critical counted) (19 Bio II, 17 each for Miasma and Thunder)
Bio I = 1,400 damage (17 tics, one critical)
Shadow Flare = 960 damage (16 tics)
Ruin = 1,120 damage (7 casts)
Fester = 1,725 damage (3 casts)
Pet damage = 3,250 damage (20 attacks, one critical)
Total damage = 12,225 damage

And, of course, this all assumes absolutely 0 movement on the caster's part, as that's also eking out every single Ruin you can cast. And, to be fair, it also assumes 0 buffs. I'll make another post when I finish figuring out how much my BRD can do. . .

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Originally Posted by savant07

I've seen quite a bit of posts about monks, dragoons and summoners being the strongest DPS (a lot of posts about summoners now) but rarely anything about bards. Are they the weakest DPS class (though granted they are kind of support-ish but they were changed to be pure DPS)?

Do they not compete equally with other DPS classes or are they the subpar DPS class no one wants other than for MP regen?

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why do you not actually read the forum to which you post a new thread?

So, for BRD, I get the following numbers over a 60 second fight where we mysteriously never use Misery's End, never get River of Blood procs, and only ever proc Straighter Shot just as we're about to renew Straight Shot anyway, and never, ever crit, because I'm too lazy to figure out my crit % and try to simulate River of Blood. And, of course, no buffs, to include Barrage (even though Barrage would totally push the total damage in the BRD's favor without changing anything else)

So, Windbiter and Venomous Bite both get cast 4 times, with the final casts being just before the end of the fight, so no dots for the final casts, just initial damage.

Windbiter + Venous Bite damage = 2,634 damage

Straighter Shot will proc at least twice throughout the fight, and the fight is long enough to cast Straight Shot a total of 4 times. Two times will be forced critical from Straighter Shot, the other two normal.

Straight Shot damage = 887 damage

Lazy Bloodletter with no River of Blood procs will fire off 4 times.

Bloodletter damage = 760 damage

Blunt Arrow will fire twice, and Flaming Arrow will fire once.

Blunt Arrow + Flaming Arrow damage = 1457 damage

Heavy Shot, being our filler, will fire off the most times, at 13 (even though some of those would actually be Straighter Shots, increasing those numbers and dropping these numbers)

Heavy Shot damage = 2,470 damage

And last but not least, Auto-Attack damage

Auto-Attack damage = 2,534 damage

Total damage in this way under-powered scenario = 10,740 damage.

This assumes no buffs of any sort, while running circles around the target taunting him with his inability to hit the BRD with any AOE attacks. And again, that's a 0% crit rate (not counting Straighter Shot forced crits), no River of Blood procs (because 0% crit, right?), the worst possible timing on Straighter Shot procs, and an enemy that somehow lasts through a one-minute fight but mysteriously drops from 21% hp to 0% hp so we can never Misery's End. . .

Why is the summoner's fester ability only cast 3 times? Isn't it on a 10 sec CD for 6 casts in a minute?

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Originally Posted by savant07

Why is the summoner's fester ability only cast 3 times? Isn't it on a 10 sec CD for 6 casts in a minute?

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Those are actually the numbers you took from poster tn2389. I'm assuming, though, that it's because it requires you to be under the effect of Aetherflow, which only stacks to 3, and has a 1 minute recast.

Edit: Which kinda brings up a second point. If the SMN is pre-casting three Aetherflow casts, it seems like the BRD should get some sort of buff just to make things. . .well, not even, because they're honestly already even if I factor in my critical %. Maybe I should leave BRD unbuffed to give the illusion of equality.

Edit to the edit: Just looked at the actual Aetherflow skill. Guess at 40+ it gives 3 stacks of Aetherflow in one cast, so nevermind the whole thing about pre-casting.

Does your bard math include trait damage bonus?

Bards are the strongest for multiple reasons. High (very high) damage, River of Blood is stupidly high damage, all our personal buffs are great and amazing damage, we couple white hits with out abilites which casters do no.
Basically if bards don't sing a song they are untouchable high DPS, and when they do sing everyone can catch up but they are still not as awesome as a bard because they aren't singing a lovely song thats making everyone else perform better.

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Originally Posted by savant07

Does your bard math include trait damage bonus?

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It's based off of my actual damage numbers, so yeah. I'm wearing *slightly* better gear than the SMN you quoted, in that I have 4 darklight pieces, 3 ilvl 55 greens (including weapon), and the rest ilvl 60 greens. But the one extra piece of darklight isn't enough to account for the actual difference in damage.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

It's based off of my actual damage numbers, so yeah. I'm wearing *slightly* better gear than the SMN you quoted, in that I have 4 darklight pieces, 3 ilvl 55 greens (including weapon), and the rest ilvl 60 greens. But the one extra piece of darklight isn't enough to account for the actual difference in damage.

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Hmm I'm guessing this doesn't factor in any of our 5 DPS cooldowns.

Also, how often do you think River of Blood procs and the average Bloodletter cooldown you think it brings it to?

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Originally Posted by savant07

Hmm I'm guessing this doesn't factor in any of our 5 DPS cooldowns.

Also, how often do you think River of Blood procs and the average Bloodletter cooldown you think it brings it to?

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It depends on what buffs you have active when you use the Bites. Using only SS and passive crit chance, I usually have it come up early (sometimes only barely, though). Conversely, SS+Internal Release+Passive has caused every DOT tic to reset the CD before, and I've seen this happen multiple times.

As for the cooldowns, I didn't include any. Partially because the numbers you quoted didn't, and partially because I'm lazy and it was all done while alt-tabbed or waiting on rez sickness in AK. >_>

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

It depends on what buffs you have active when you use the Bites. Using only SS and passive crit chance, I usually have it come up early (sometimes only barely, though). Conversely, SS+Internal Release+Passive has caused every DOT tic to reset the CD before, and I've seen this happen multiple times.

As for the cooldowns, I didn't include any. Partially because the numbers you quoted didn't, and partially because I'm lazy and it was all done while alt-tabbed or waiting on rez sickness in AK. >_>

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Hmm, wonder how well we scale with gear in terms of crit chance and resetting blood letters. I wish DoTs ticked per second :P When I play my bard, I feel like the reset isn't proccing enough :(

Also, if you DoT multiple mobs, does it help increase the procs?

The procs on River of Blood is pretty inconsistent. From my own experience, sometimes I can go the full 18s without a proc and sometimes it procs 4 times on one windbite/venomous. I'm not really sure if there is any rhyme or reason to it.

There's a lot of problems with that "SMN DPS calculation". It assumes that the SMN instantly has up all DOTs, when it takes 15s at minimum to get every DoT up. You also can't cast Fester until at least 7.5 seconds in. The damage calculations also assume that you instantly reapply every DoT as soon as it wears off which, in practice, is nearly impossible to do thanks to latency, staggered durations, etc. So unless you summon your SMN whenever a dot gets close to falling off, you're going to be missing a chunk of that dps.

Also, because pets don't scale with gear, the "100 potency dot" of a pet is actually far lower proportionally once your SMN starts gearing up, meaning that the difference between an item level 90 BRD and SMN will be even greater in favor of the BRD.

Can you clear all content with a competent SMN? Sure, probably. But BRD hits harder and can be played lazier while still getting better results than a skilled SMN.

As far as I know, yeah, DOT'ing multiple mobs increases the chances it will proc, but bear in mind that it can never proc more than once per 3 seconds, as all DOTs are on the same 3 second timer. I usually find it easier to just focus fire whatever the tank wants me to kill, and to heck with DOTing anything else before it's time to switch.

As far as procs go, just keeping up SS buff and your passive crit chance should be giving you about 3-4 procs per minute, which means you're doubling your use of BL. Using my figures above, that's an extra 570-760 damage a minute, and that number shoots up if you pop Internal Release and re-apply the DOTs. (And honestly, I'm assuming about 10% crit chance unbuffed, but I'll be downloading the parser soon to get a look.)

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Rainsford

Also, because pets don't scale with gear, the "100 potency dot" of a pet is actually far lower proportionally once your SMN starts gearing up, meaning that the difference between an item level 90 BRD and SMN will be even greater in favor of the BRD.

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Pets do scale with gear, you just have to re-summon them. The scaling sucks, from what the forums say, but it is there. . .

Being a Monk.. I say Bard can easily out damage me even with my crit buff, and FoF active.

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Originally Posted by Pwnagraphic

Being a Monk.. I say Bard can easily out damage me even with my crit buff, and FoF active.

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Is this speaking from end game experience like Garuda or Coil of Bahamut or Titan?

Hmm I got level 50 summoners in coil claiming 230 DPS on their parses. Don't know how accurate that is...

smn won't lose, but not every smn is great at the job. I'd be interested to see if bard reaches 400dps about in AK on every boss which is where I've hit as a general high. All the bards I've had so far are being outpaced easily and have half the dmg despite full DL. I'm sure 200ish is about right for a long fight where you you will have to stop using fester or spend time dodging or where there are harder mobs and certain buffs aren't up when you need them.

IMO i think all dps class are fairly balanced, just depends on who know how to play them and how to do maximize their damage from the rotations and who doenst

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Originally Posted by savant07

Hmm I got level 50 summoners in coil claiming 230 DPS on their parses. Don't know how accurate that is...

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Well, the numbers I posted for SMN earlier are 203 dps, assuming a nearly perfect rotation; a mix of darklight, ilvl 55, and ilvl 60; and no buffs. If I assume that the people in Coil are having their rotations screwed with by mechanics; have full darklight (or better); and use buffs, then yes, I can easily see 230 dps or higher. Especially since the numbers posted earlier are all single-target.

As a Bard if I don't pull back some on DPS I aggro I have to becareful always close to Number 1 but almost always Number 2 ....sucks when I pick up aggro when sometimes the tank does something else I have to becareful.

Reason being we pull all our attribute points into DEX therefore raising attack POWER.
ALso Bard gear is very high in DEX to include all Jewelry and Weapons.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Well, the numbers I posted for SMN earlier are 203 dps, assuming a nearly perfect rotation; a mix of darklight, ilvl 55, and ilvl 60; and no buffs. If I assume that the people in Coil are having their rotations screwed with by mechanics; have full darklight (or better); and use buffs, then yes, I can easily see 230 dps or higher. Especially since the numbers posted earlier are all single-target.

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I'm assuming a bard can do roughly the same DPS on a single target?

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Originally Posted by Silvyaniss

As a Bard if I don't pull back some on DPS I aggro I have to becareful always close to Number 1 but almost always Number 2 ....sucks when I pick up aggro when sometimes the tank does something else I have to becareful.

Reason being we pull all our attribute points into DEX therefore raising attack POWER.
ALso Bard gear is very high in DEX to include all Jewelry and Weapons.

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Isn't that the same for other classes? They get high primary stats on their armor?

Here are my observations about bard vs other dps:

Dragoon - They seem to have comparable (probably better/more consistent) single target when they can get behind the target and stick to it, otherwise are much weaker.

Monk - I suspect they're similar to lancers, but I've only been in 1 party with a monk, so no comment.

Black Mage - The numbers I see black mages pull out are insane. Also, AoE wise, no contest. They blow bards out of the water, plus regen mp instantly with blizzard, while bards have to watch TP in extended AoEs. As a bard, the absolute best thing you can do is sing Requiem + Voice, 20% bonus to your BLMs is just insane. BLMs are our best friends.

Summoner - This is tricky. I'm going to say comparable, with the caveat that they don't seem to have very good burst dps, while bard with Barrage and any other cooldown up is insane bursty.