10 changes which will make WAR competitive with PLD!!

1. fix defiance. make the 15%healing and 10% critical chance increase buff permanent not stacked.
2. fix inner beast, the heal is crap, it HAS to be a shield effect. STACKABLE
3. wrath needs to be stacked by 3 max. 5 units of wrath are taking too long to stack.
4. fix foresight, switch it with pld's rampart, why does pld get TWO dmg reduction skill and war only get one crappy defense increase? AND this skill needs to be warrior ONLY.
5. storm's eye needs to last longer, make it 24sec, the same as maim.
6. bloodbath is crap, increase the effect to 50%.
7. mercy strike is the crap of the crap. either lower its cool down to 10sec or dramatically increase its dmg, and we dont need the heal if it only works on killing blow.
8. steel cyclone. almost NEVER used, FIX it please. it has no enmity increase effect and it takes up all the wrath.
9. brutal swing, lower the CD to 20 or make it exact the same as shield bash.
10. what is the point of not be able to use WS for 5sec after berserk ends? are we oneshotting people? fix it!

1) This would be very nice, but would also take some depth out of our class.
2) A shield effect rather than a heal would be awesome; but I don't think shields give enmity?

7) I completely agree - something needs to be done with this ability. Either make it have a much shorter cool down, or highly increased damage.
8) Just unlocked this last night, but sorry to hear that it's not useful.
9) This would be helpful.

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1. fix defiance. make the 15%healing and 10% critical chance increase buff permanent not stacked.

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Somewhat agree. 15% healing should be permanent but the crit buff should be applied as is - with each stack of fury you build up.

Finding it hard to agree with you other suggestions.

Ok this has to stop
Skills warrior can get:
Feather foot
Flash
Second wind
Convalescence which btw would work great with bloodbath
Infernal release Ummm 30% crit chance and with wrath. Ummm. Really.....that's most in the game
Awareness
Mantra also works great with bloodbath and convalescence

Seriously think outside the box people. I would love to get my hands on WAR but having so much fun with PLD. Make a few macros for WAR and it can be a fuggin truck.

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Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Finding it hard to agree with you other suggestions.

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because your main is not war

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Ok this has to stop
Skills warrior can get:
Feather foot
Flash
Second wind
Convalescence which btw would work great with bloodbath
Infernal release Ummm 30% crit chance and with wrath. Ummm. Really.....that's most in the game
Awareness
Mantra also works great with bloodbath and convalescence

Seriously think outside the box people. I would love to get my hands on WAR but having so much fun with PLD. Make a few macros for WAR and it can be a fuggin truck.

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this kind of post needs to stop.

your info is wrong and you havent used these skill at all.
sure there are great skill like flash, but others are not that great.

And yet I still play WAR a lot.

1 : This is, imo, the main problem. Sometimes I even hesitate to land an Inner Beast because I know that if I loose my fury stacks, my healer may have some difficulties to heal me.
2 : if so, Inner Beast would be really too overpowered imo.
3 : if 1 is applied, we don't really need this.
4 : NO. We are NOT paladins.
5 : agreed.
6 : I don't think BB was designed to serve as a strong heal like IB. This is likely a sustain utility HoT. 50% would be a little strong imo.
8 : agreed. That sucks and it's completely useless. In fact it has to be revamped, because even with enemity bonus, we don't have any reason to not use Overpower instead.
9 : NO. We are NOT paladins.
10 : kind of agree. I almost never use WS because of that. Five seconds of inactivity is a pain in the *** when you have to manage an unexpected emergency situation.

These threads continue to make me shake my head, because they are filled with nerf this and that for PLD, rather than think of objective and progressive ways to increase WAR's sustainability. Also, stop trying to make Warrior into Paladin. We do not need 2 Paladins.

Enhance things, not add or subtract. Add improvements on already existing abilities. Like foresight, give MRD/WAR an enhancement to it after level 30 that adds increased parry rate (+30% would be my suggestion) and lower the CD on it. Call it Enhanced Foresight trait. That way we do not punish PLDs and groups who have one by removing damage reduction options to a damage reduction spec class. Increase the DPS capabilities of warriors, allow them to spec a role, say when they enter DF they can select to be a DPS and/or tank, so that when the tanking of a particular mob or dungeon is better suited to a GLD/PLD, the WAR can step up and pump it's damage. Add an ability where they can douse some enmity onto the tank, and a counter ability where they can remove some enmity from a party member, similar to THFs abilities in FFXI.

Give them a native regen boost, a noticeable one, that lowers the intensity of healing them. Counter that by upping the enmity loss through damage a bit. There are more options than whine, complain, nerf, nerf, nerf. Balance doesn't mean you get all the good and none of the bad, which is what these threads are amounting to.

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Originally Posted by Lharz

1 : This is, imo, the main problem. Sometimes I even hesitate to land an Inner Beast because I know that if I loose my fury stacks, my healer may have some difficulties to heal me.
2 : if so, Inner Beast would be really too overpowered imo.
3 : if 1 is applied, we don't really need this.
4 : NO. We are NOT paladins.
5 : agreed.
6 : I don't think BB was designed to serve as a strong heal like IB. This is likely a sustain utility HoT. 50% would be a little strong imo.
8 : agreed. That sucks and it's completely useless. In fact it has to be revamped, because even with enemity bonus, we don't have any reason to not use Overpower instead.
9 : NO. We are NOT paladins.
10 : kind of agree. I almost never use WS because of that. Five seconds of inactivity is a pain in the *** when you have to manage an unexpected emergency situation.

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no, turning inner beast's heal into shield， is the second priority thing to do， 1st of course is defiance.

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Originally Posted by hola

no, turning inner beast's heal into shield， is the second priority thing to do， 1st of course is defiance.

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I didn't read well. Turning heal into shield would be ok. But not both, as I thought you wished.

Played war for the first time since 1.0 in AK last night. Very unimpressed. I've ran that dungeon a good 30 times and the way I was getting hit with a good portion of my gear being ilv60 was just stupid. I was a total mp sink. The class just seemed unfinished. Pld is all about mitigating damage, which works. War is about... kinda parrying, kinda restoring hp with skills that don't restore that much hp... I duno, hung up my axe and finishing pld now. I agree with the need to 'enhance' war abilities, not nerf other classes.

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Originally Posted by Lharz

I didn't read well. Turning heal into shield would be ok. But not both, as I thought you wished.

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get to lv 50 then talk

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Originally Posted by hola

get to lv 50 then talk

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Stupid reaction. You're ended.

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Originally Posted by Lharz

4 : NO. We are NOT paladins.
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why?
because you are pld so you can get TWO dmg mitigation skill? which basically offer the same effect, even tooltip are the same. while war only get A defense boost skill??? defense does absolutely nothing to magic attack.

not to mention pld can use foresight as well. EXACT the same 20% defense boost, just longer CD.

The only thing WAR needs, is more reliable HP generation, and maybe moving the 15% healing buff to defiance instead of wrath.

IB shield (instead of heal) that stacks with SCH shields and stoneskin could be interesting. War also needs a way to dump aggro when doing certain 8mans. Apart from certain bosses, it makes no sense to have two tanks in those.

Before today, I was a terrible war tank, but after discussing the job with a pld friend of mine, whose wife is a healer that I've run instances with. I figured out how to play properly, and I now have no problems tanking the 50 instances up to and including HM ifrit.

Your class isn't a paladin. Learn to deal with it, or go level up paladin as your next job. Stop trying to make every class the same...

I think an absorb shield on Inner Beast would be useful.

Maybe an increased parry chance after using Steel Cyclone or Vengeance could fit with WAR too

I think it would be cool if they did something like immune to all damage while in the animation of Steel Cyclone (~1 sec) would make it viable to use to avoid big hits on bosses but very hard to do it well... or maybe take 50% damage but have it be 2-3 secs. Would make the skill good for aoe tanking as well as avoid huge damage from boss nukes.

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Originally Posted by hola

Original Post

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1. Defiance is OK as it is. It adds a lot of depth to our class and makes Infuriate a useful defensive and offensive cooldown. The bigger issue is with the usefulness of skills that eat our stacks.

2. Inner Beast heal is actually very good. It would be better if it was a shield effect though, and I think this would be a fair change. The biggest problem is how often it overheals, or causes a cure 2 to overheal.

3. 3 stacks would be way too powerful even if it didn't need the stacks for the healing and crit chance (like you suggest dropping the requirement). 3 stacks would mean a 1k self heal ridiculously often. IMO it would be broken. I could see 4 stacks, but that would only be if it still required you to stack for the healing / crit bonus.

4. I don't think Foresight should be taken from PLD, though it could be slightly better I don't think it should be buffed that much...

5. Yeah storm's eye is problematic. As it is it makes improved maim a completely worthless trait because you have to go through a maim combo more often to apply the slashing resistance debuff every other combo anyway. The alternative is dropping storms eye from the rotation, which seems a bit ridiculous considering it's our level 50 MRD skill...

6. Bloodbath isn't very good for a cooldown, I agree.

7. Mercy Stroke is probably one of our most useless skills. I would like to see it reworked as a proper execute: I.E. 200 potentcy attack, 60 second cooldown, if the target is below 20% health it deals double damage. If it kills the target, apply the heal it currently does. At least then I would macro it into something...

8. Steel Cyclone is trash. Damage is too low, and it's only good for aoe enmity except if you are aoe tanking losing your fury stacks from defiance is too high of a price to pay. Would love to see it consume only 1 stack of Wrath, and be usable while not infuriated. Currently there would never be a situation where you should use it over flash or overpower.

9. Brutal Swing should have a lower stun duration and a shorter cooldown. Enhanced brutal Swing should reduce the cooldown to 20 seconds instead of making it last 5 seconds. It's nice how it has flavor and is off the GCD though. Homogonzing it to be like paladin shield bash would be horrible.

10. The 5 seconds after berserk is necessary to counteract the huge damage bonus it gives us. It's still probably the best DPS cooldown in the game, with the possible exception of Blood for Blood which would be completely unusable by marauders anyway. The time can be well utilized by defensive cooldowns and dropping a flash.

So I agree that some of the things you bring up are issues but I think all your solutions need more thought.

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Originally Posted by Koltik

2) A shield effect rather than a heal would be awesome; but I don't think shields give enmity?

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Pretty sure War self heals don't generate Enmity anyway. At least that was the case according to the table I saw.

WAR with DL gear reaches 7.1k HP range whereas PLDs with DL gear reaches around 5.4k HP

my impression is that WAR are meant to be high HP tanks hence the lack of damage mitigation skills, I can't imagine how enjoying significantly higher HP, HP regen and DPS yet possessing dmg mitigation skills makes a class "balanced"

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Originally Posted by SatrinaKali

Your class isn't a paladin. Learn to deal with it, or go level up paladin as your next job. Stop trying to make every class the same...

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did you even read????

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

1. Defiance is OK as it is. It adds a lot of depth to our class and makes Infuriate a useful defensive and offensive cooldown. The bigger issue is with the usefulness of skills that eat our stacks.

2. Inner Beast heal is actually very good. It would be better if it was a shield effect though, and I think this would be a fair change. The biggest problem is how often it overheals, or causes a cure 2 to overheal.

3. 3 stacks would be way too powerful even if it didn't need the stacks for the healing and crit chance (like you suggest dropping the requirement). 3 stacks would mean a 1k self heal ridiculously often. IMO it would be broken. I could see 4 stacks, but that would only be if it still required you to stack for the healing / crit bonus.

4. I don't think Foresight should be taken from PLD, though it could be slightly better I don't think it should be buffed that much...

5. Yeah storm's eye is problematic. As it is it makes improved maim a completely worthless trait because you have to go through a maim combo more often to apply the slashing resistance debuff every other combo anyway. The alternative is dropping storms eye from the rotation, which seems a bit ridiculous considering it's our level 50 MRD skill...

6. Bloodbath isn't very good for a cooldown, I agree.

7. Mercy Stroke is probably one of our most useless skills. I would like to see it reworked as a proper execute: I.E. 200 potentcy attack, 60 second cooldown, if the target is below 20% health it deals double damage. If it kills the target, apply the heal it currently does. At least then I would macro it into something...

8. Steel Cyclone is trash. Damage is too low, and it's only good for aoe enmity except if you are aoe tanking losing your fury stacks from defiance is too high of a price to pay. Would love to see it consume only 1 stack of Wrath, and be usable while not infuriated. Currently there would never be a situation where you should use it over flash or overpower.

9. Brutal Swing should have a lower stun duration and a shorter cooldown. Enhanced brutal Swing should reduce the cooldown to 20 seconds instead of making it last 5 seconds. It's nice how it has flavor and is off the GCD though. Homogonzing it to be like paladin shield bash would be horrible.

10. The 5 seconds after berserk is necessary to counteract the huge damage bonus it gives us. It's still probably the best DPS cooldown in the game, with the possible exception of Blood for Blood which would be completely unusable by marauders anyway. The time can be well utilized by defensive cooldowns and dropping a flash.

So I agree that some of the things you bring up are issues but I think all your solutions need more thought.

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I personally agree with a lot of what you are saying. Only things i beg to differ:

4) foresight is definitely pitifuly underpower compared to rampart. While i get we don't have as many defensive CD than paladin, the fact that we get at the same level range a defensive CD, but while theirs is a 20% damage reduction for both physical and magical, and we get like a 6% damage reduction only physical, is laughable. The fact that PLD can cross class foresight and we can't do the same with rampart just adds insult to the injury.

10) Actually, it is not, and once again, PLD get the better of it. Fight of flight is a 30% DPS increase for 30 sec, or about 9 seconds of DPS, you win every 90 seconds, so about 6 seconds DPS per minute. 10%. Berserker is 50% for 20 sec, or 10 seconds, to which you remove 5 seconds, so 5 seconds of gained DPS. This is on a 90 sec CD too, to it is about 3.33 second of gained DPS per minute. As it stands, fight or flight is almost twice as powerfulla s berserk, even if the damage boost is not as powerful for short burst. Still, 30% is nothing to scoff at. This one is easier to change for: instead of making berserk better, just let us cross class fight or flight (un-traited anyway). I get that pld are all about defensiveness so they get both berserk and foresight from us. Then as warrior are about mitigating through damage, we should DEFINITELY have the pld ability that increases damage. Would also make for some interesting choices regarding which abilities you pick as a war.


EDIT: suggestions to solve both problems:
For 4): make us get rampart and pld foresight. Same as before, they can cross class skill it, we can't. Pld get a minor loss (trading enhanced ramprt for enhanced foresight) but we get a massive boost, and at least one freackin defensive CD that is not abyssmally bad.

For 10): as said i would like us to get our hand on unenhanced fight or fligth. Moreover, to get berserk up to par with fight or flight, up its damage increase to 70%. 70% for 20 sec is 14 sec of damage increase, minus 5 = 9, same as fight or flight. I agree with the don't remove 5 seconds where you are down, as it is an integral part of the skill, and what makes it fun and interesting to use IMO. But this should seriously rock, not be slightly better than the pld damage enhancing with a huge weakness built in so that its half as usefull as theirs. The fact they can half ass theirs and not thinka bout it and its twice as powerfull, whereas we need to think when we use ours because it can be disastrous used on wrong time, but it is half as potent, is ludicrous.

Before I get into specifically quoting other posts, I have a proposition that expands on what several others have said:

What if all Warrior self-healing was converted to shield-generation? Instead of regenerating actual HP, you build up buffers of temporary HP to soak the damage that PLDs mitigate. Healer's would still see your HP bar's level as green and your temp HP as lets say blue, so they know when you need healing and when they can leave you alone for a moment. This also allows WARs to be preemptive in their ability use instead of reactive; you see a big hit coming, pop Inner Beast and you'll negate a large portion of it.

For the warriors whining about cross class foresight on paladins, you do realize that you can use pugilist skills right? Foresight is the one and only cross class skill we get thats actually worth anything.

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Originally Posted by MBTL90

For the warriors whining about cross class foresight on paladins, you do realize that you can use pugilist skills right? Foresight is the one and only cross class skill we get thats actually worth anything.

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so you agree blood bath is pathetic?

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Originally Posted by hola

so you agree blood bath is pathetic?

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It sure isn't Featherfoot, Second Wind, or Mantra.

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Originally Posted by hola

so you agree blood bath is pathetic?

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The fact that he agrees with one of your points in no way validates the rest of your opinions.

Warrior needs a rework or at least a few alterations, that much is agreed by the majority. Exactly what those reworks/alterations should be is still debatable, and you should still be molding your opinion as you discuss it with your fellow forumites, not staunchly defending that your every point is solid fact.

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Originally Posted by MBTL90

It sure isn't Featherfoot, Second Wind, or Mantra.

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Oh no yeah definitely, you're right. I mean Second wind is so overpowered, it heals you for, i dunno, at least 400 of your 7500 hp endgame, and this every 2 minutes ! Man, so lucky. In all seriousness, Second wind is probably healing for less than bloodbath, which is telling much.

Also Mantra + un-enhanced convalescence is probably about the same than enhanced convalescence.

And enhanced foresight + featherfoot is still less good than enhanced rampart alone, not even talking about unhanced foresight on top, let alone for alllllll the others oh-shit of pld.

Seriously, i'm not for War having all the def buff of pld, far from it, but citing Second wind and mantra as reason why warrior is ok is just silly.

Edit: double post >.>

After seeing what Blood DK did to WoW, I am wholly against stacking absorb shields as a means of tanking.

Perhaps a stacking buff which gives a 'chance on taking physical damage' to mitigate it as though it was blocked with a shield.

Also, as for taking your stun off cooldown and making it the same as Shield Bash... im cool with that. In fact, completely swap them. let Paladin have the stun thats on CD so that we can start actually tanking things instead of being relegated to auto-attack-only+shield bash-only duty.

Be careful what you wish for sometimes.

I would love it if they added a dislike button to the forums, instead of just a like button. That way people could see when they have horrible ideas.

Here's a modest proposal:

Play a better class.
Clearly Paladins are the superior master tanking class.

There is so many awful posts in this thread.

You shouldn't be commenting if you're not actually at end game, as it is every TOP FC AGREES THAT WARRIORS TAKE WAY TOO MUCH DAMAGE.

Every Top FC runs two paladins if possible, the difference between mitigation is too great.

95% of the suggestions in the first post are perfectly reasonable but still probably need some polishing. Still warrior is absolutely inferior in all aspects.

As far as the 5 seconds of pacification goes on Berserk, have a healer cleanse you right as the pacification goes up. Granted, this isn't really all that ideal, but I do it all the time on my 50 War with one of my healers and it's amazing. Pacification can be cleansed, use that fact.

Glad I found this thread before investing anymore time into my MRD. He's only lvl 15 and it's only taken like two hours to get there. I actually wanted to play PLD but chose the wrong class. Silly me. I'm a healer and I hate chitty tanks so I will try to never become one. Pally it is.

I thought pally is weaker than warriors O.o

Seriously, Warriors are tanks with a little DPS potential compared to Paladins. In order for you to be an affective tank in dungeons, You got to be careful when using your skill rotations. Every situation in dungeons has a right skill rotations. HINT: Don't spam your DPS skills, You are built to be a tank after all.

I like this thread, has a lot of paladins telling warriors they are doing it wrong.

Especially ones who haven't even reached endgame.