Anti-Speed Run Mechanism

SE please introduce a mechanism to stop people trying to speed run dungeons when using the duty finder.

Too many newbie’s are being treated badly because people want to circumvent game play for an easy win.

If people want to speed run with a group of friends then fine. If there was an option in the duty finder called "screw the fun just give me points" that parties you with only people that want to speed run, then fine, I wont use it, but fine.

Just make it so Mob's never lose the chase and follow you into the boss rooms, problem solved.

Welcome to the world of MMOs, where the fun is breaking the system to your advantage.

completely disagree, you should be wanting a kick feature to kick a person who thinks that then kill speed runs all together

No, I'd rather a mechanism that setups a working group before hand rather than having to get into a dungeon only to have to kick someone out. As I said in the OP if there were an option in DF for people wanting to run past content that would only pull players wanting the same then that would be fine. As it is people can already do this if they get a group of 4 friends and enter themselves.

Kick option is just an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.

The Que time is a pretty good anti speed run mechanism

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Originally Posted by Fengor

Welcome to the world of MMOs, where the fun is breaking the system to your advantage.

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I bet there would be a lot less skipping trash if the dungeons weren't so long or offered rewards for not skipping it.

but yeah when people don't like the way you have things set up they tend to try to work around it or did you think anyone actually wanted to spend 30hrs of their life running 1 dungeon over and over again?

we dont even have variety lol

Under geared, experienced, ASK YOUR FREE COMPANY to take you and show you the ropes, or go with a full group to learn it and get comfortable. not everyone wants a speedrun, and just find people of like mind and queue up with a full group, or close to it.

Putting limits on how ppl want to play the game based on how others think it should be played in never a good idea. A better idea would be to simply allow players to select "speed run", or "normal run" in the duty finder would allow like minded players to play what they want without causing issues.

Restrictions are not what is needed to fix this. More options are what will allow everyone to play the way they want to.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

I bet there would be a lot less skipping trash if the dungeons weren't so long or offered rewards for not skipping it.

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Bingo.

The moment it becomes a worthwhile endeavor to kill trash, people will start doing it.

The best anti-speed run mechanism is to simply give the trash value.

Until that happens, whiners gonna whine and speed runners gonna get more loot.

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Originally Posted by LilSmalls

SE please introduce a mechanism to stop people trying to speed run dungeons when using the duty finder.

Too many newbie’s are being treated badly because people want to circumvent game play for an easy win.

If people want to speed run with a group of friends then fine. If there was an option in the duty finder called "screw the fun just give me points" that parties you with only people that want to speed run, then fine, I wont use it, but fine.

Just make it so Mob's never lose the chase and follow you into the boss rooms, problem solved.

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They should have two modes, story mode and normal mode. The story mode won't give the tombstones, and the normal mode will. This should be the case for Castrum, Praetorium, Wanderers and Amp.

That way people can enjoy the story, watch the cutscenes, and finish their hunting logs, without having to deal with everyone wanting them to skip cutscenes, and speed run through content they haven't experienced before.

They might have to wait in queue a little longer for someone wanting to run story mode, but it should be doable.

At any rate, they need to do something. It's really kinda getting out of hand.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

I bet there would be a lot less skipping trash if the dungeons weren't so long or offered rewards for not skipping it.

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That would be the most satisfying solution. Just adding a mechanic that prevents skipping (auto aggro whole party, closed doors, etc.) would only cause unhappiness. At the moment, trash mobs are mere obstacle that don't have any value what so ever (even worse, besides the huge time investment, killing them actually costs you money in terms of repair bills). Skipping them, if possible, therefore is the logical conclusion .. because there is no reason to do otherwise.

So the best way to solve the "problem" would be to add an incentive to kill trash. That way we actually have to make a decision if we want to skip (faster tomes) or kill (money, xp, other items, ... whatever incentive you can think of) trash. Having more options would be a good thing here.

Make trash drop reasonable amount of gil, seals and tomes and problem solved.

All you need to do is put everyone on the threat list once an enemy is engaged.

There will be no dying and ressing then because the whole party will be dead.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

All you need to do is put everyone on the threat list once an enemy is engaged.

There will be no dying and ressing then because the whole party will be dead.

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Sure go for this option. Then we just could have tank die and healer insta rez him and wait for them to reset and rez anyway. There are always going to be speed runs and the like as long as the trash is worthless. The only way to stop speed runs is make it worth it to kill trash as people have said. There is a severe lack of gil incoming to the servers but a large amount going out. Simple solution is add a decent amount of gil dropping from trash mobs. I for one would kill trash if I profitted from it. But as it stands there is no reason for me not to speed run anything. I take more durability loss killing the trash then I do dying 3 times in a speed run of AK.

You can make gil drops from trash but here's another thought:
Kill all mobs in dungeons and you get bonus tomes! Make it like 10 phil and 4 myth just like hard mode primal. Then people will do full clear.

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Originally Posted by Ariyn

Sure go for this option. Then we just could have tank die and healer insta rez him and wait for them to reset and rez anyway. There are always going to be speed runs and the like as long as the trash is worthless. The only way to stop speed runs is make it worth it to kill trash as people have said. There is a severe lack of gil incoming to the servers but a large amount going out. Simple solution is add a decent amount of gil dropping from trash mobs. I for one would kill trash if I profitted from it. But as it stands there is no reason for me not to speed run anything. I take more durability loss killing the trash then I do dying 3 times in a speed run of AK.

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Did you not read what I wrote ? ....

If everyone is placed on the threat list, if tank dies, healer will die as will the dps, so when monsters reset there will be nobody to raise the tank.

Currently only the person who attacks or is attacked is placed on the threat list so when he dies the monsters reset and leave the rest of the party alive. (this should be changed)

How do they skip the enemies? Do they run through em and let someone die?
Do they skip enemies by legally slipping through them without being activated?

First one would bring em a report for exploiting, second is absolut OK imho.

To Jinko, what Ariyn is saying is that: before the party dies from your suggestion of threats, cast instant raise on healer (since I am a smn, i know what she means, i have access to instant battle rez). Healer don't accept raise till all party died and monsters leave. Then healer rez and raise the rest. Got it now?
To Feilina: Yes tank ran and agro every mob and the party follows. In the boss room, tank goes left, the rest go right. Tank died, mobs leave, then healer go raise tank.
There's easy way to make it so there's no speed run. Make it so that once anyone steps into boss area, boss agro that person. 15sec later, area is sealed. And all the mobs that followed from outside area stays in the area till all party member died. Also even if you cast instant raise and accept, you will be targeted by the boss since it is set to agro anyone within the area. There goes your speed run. Simple. If SE want to, they can do it. They allowed speed run simply because of the need for tomes.
Image, you play 2 hours a day. You wait an hour for DF. And one DF takes an hour to clear. How are you going to get necessary tomes to get gear? Speed run is a necessity for casual gamers. Unless they put crafting recipes so that darklight equivalent gear can be crafted, then speed run must stay.

Ahh ok, she wasn't very explicit in what she meant.

In that case why not keep players on the threat list until the player returns.

I don't think having the mobs drop more gil is going to make people want to kill them, hell in WP there are items in the chests for relic and most parties just want to run through and get the tomes.

Of course the simplistic fix would be to have the requirement to clear the floor to unlock the boss.

Yea exactly what Nimu said except that PLD's can raise as well so in my case when the healer gets agro at all I die and he insta rez's me and I just raise him afterwards. Same thing really.

Main thing is if there is no reason to kill the trash and it's actually worse to do so then no one will want to do it. Like I said I have a higher repair bill just from damage tanking mobs then if I just die. So what's the benefit to killing them? Surely not the 1 gil per kill or the non exsistant drops

Like I mention above, make it so if you clear the whole dungeon, you get extra tomes of phil and myth. Cause ppl don't care about wpn drops from the dungeon, but they care about tome. Now if you are giving the same amount of tomes like hard mode primal, 10phil and 4myth, I am sure people will do full clear.

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Originally Posted by nimuniverse

Like I mention above, make it so if you clear the whole dungeon, you get extra tomes of phil and myth. Cause ppl don't care about wpn drops from the dungeon, but they care about tome. Now if you are giving the same amount of tomes like hard mode primal, 10phil and 4myth, I am sure people will do full clear.

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That could work, a percentage extra for full completion.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Did you not read what I wrote ? ....

If everyone is placed on the threat list, if tank dies, healer will die as will the dps, so when monsters reset there will be nobody to raise the tank.

Currently only the person who attacks or is attacked is placed on the threat list so when he dies the monsters reset and leave the rest of the party alive. (this should be changed)

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Nope. You didn't read what he wrote. :P

A Healer with swiftcast and revive can drop that on the tank who dies first, and then entire party wipe and tank hits accept to rez AFTER all mobs reset. Tank, which will only work with a paladin, will use his cross class revive on dead healer and then rez up the dps.

Lets face it. Its CHEAPER on repairs for people to all just die and rez up than to fight trash. The durability loss for death is tiny compared to durability for fighting. And with the lack of generated gil in the economy, speed runs will be popular since its not just convience sake.

Even a full clear for 10 tomes wouldn't be enough. 45 mins for a full clear of all the trash = 90 philosophy tomes where i can do 2 runs in 40 mins and get 160 tomes now.

Motivation are the best anti speed run mechanisms, let them drop rare stuff for cool stuff to craft, pets or just gil/items and people might go again for them.

I don't believe SE designed the game for the current speed run mechanics to occur. A lot of folks may get bent out of shape if you try to consider the balance of the game as it goes against their current favorite method of grinding.

The few things that I can think of that could deter a speed run, such as those found at Amdapor Keep.

1) Once the boss battle starts, all unkilled mobs will pile up into the boss room.

2) Bosses have an HP boost based on the number of unkilled mobs/groups in its dungeon segment. This may result in battles taxing HP/MP/TP more. Better gear and tactics will allow you to "speed run", where other parties may need to level the playing field by killing enemies before the Demon Wall or before that gremlin-ant-looking fellow.

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

1) Once the boss battle starts, all unkilled mobs will pile up into the boss room.

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Vote for my favourite, plus it would be kind of funny the day after patch >.>

Alot of good suggestions posted on this so far.

My favorites have to be changing the dungeons to give the normal mobs some more meaning EG:
1. Killing mobs mean more chests or more in the chests.
2. Killing the mobs weaken the boss so that it can be killed (faster/at all).
3. Killing the mobs open doors or remove barriers to allow progression through to deep parts of a dungeon.
These ideas sound interesting to me. I'm sure there are alot of variations that could be dreamed up by the SE team.

Having mobs drop gil, items, potions, gear, etc, etc could be a step in the right direction but it seems like there are more creative and dynamic ways of brining them into the fold.

At the end of the day it would be good to have SE focus not just on the reward at the end (Destination) but the journey of getting there. Making the whole experience enjoyable and fun rather than fun being relegated to "I got a new purple item, yay I got some fun today".

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Originally Posted by Jinko

All you need to do is put everyone on the threat list once an enemy is engaged.

There will be no dying and ressing then because the whole party will be dead.

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I already found a way to break that. Course, you would need a PLD tank, and a healer with swiftcast raise. Paladin dies first, pop the raise, party wipes, paladin gets up, rezzes healer, wait a few minutes, and boom, broken. The best solution is to give trash value, until then people will skip it. This is an absolute, not something debatable. :/

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Originally Posted by Fiosha_Maureiba

The few things that I can think of that could deter a speed run, such as those found at Amdapor Keep.

1) Once the boss battle starts, all unkilled mobs will pile up into the boss room.

2) Bosses have an HP boost based on the number of unkilled mobs/groups in its dungeon segment. This may result in battles taxing HP/MP/TP more. Better gear and tactics will allow you to "speed run", where other parties may need to level the playing field by killing enemies before the Demon Wall or before that gremlin-ant-looking fellow.

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Incentive works much, much better than punishment for altering behavior.

If speed runs of AK stop being viable because of a mechanics change and the only reason to kill trash is because you have to, most people will stop doing AK entirely. It's just not worth the time for a bunch of ilvl 60 greens and some tomes if each run is going to take 60-90 minutes and you'll rack up a massive repair bill in the process. The 8 man story dungeons become more efficient, from both time and cost perspectives, if you have to slow-run AK.

If speed runs of AK stop being worthwhile because you get something of sufficient value from the trash, people will start killing the trash.

Edit: And in a wider sense, if your goal is to create a healthy, thriving MMO, punishing players is a generally stupid idea. If people do something unanticipated (FATE parties, AK speed runs) and the devs' response is to punish people, those players won't feel valued and are likely to quit. It's bad business sense on SE's part to just nerf nerf nerf. If something is exceptionally unbalanced to the point of breaking the game (e.g. finding an exploit that triples tomes dropped in a run), that obviously needs to be addressed.

It's a much better business decision for SE to learn from their mistakes, avoid repeating them in the future, and generally let things stand for the time being (or create incentive to alter behavior). Nerfing FATE XP or adding mechanics to prevent speed running is foolhardy. Especially 2 weeks into a game's life. Add daily quests that give a big chunk of XP for completion of a dungeon, and you'll see people migrate towards the DF and mostly the hardcore grinders will stick to FATEs. Add drops of value to AK trash so that people want to kill it. You lose money hand over fist just by being 50 and doing content, and rather than introducing money through dailies, add it through trash (which is also an effective time gate).

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Originally Posted by LilSmalls

SE please introduce a mechanism to stop people trying to speed run dungeons when using the duty finder.

Too many newbie’s are being treated badly because people want to circumvent game play for an easy win.

If people want to speed run with a group of friends then fine. If there was an option in the duty finder called "screw the fun just give me points" that parties you with only people that want to speed run, then fine, I wont use it, but fine.

Just make it so Mob's never lose the chase and follow you into the boss rooms, problem solved.

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After you run Amdapor Keep for the eleventh billion time you'll sing a different tune.

The best way to circumvent speed runs is to make trash worth killing. They should have a % drop for tokens, drop random greens, GIL (FFS), and there should be coffers placed strategically that drop silver and gold vendor trash (500/2500)

As long as the trash remains worthless to kill, people will try to find ways to skip it. It happens in every MMO.

Maybe. But as I said in a previous reply I'm much more interested in the journey being fun. If the only point is to get tokens for another armor piece for better stats then the boat has been missed entirely in my opinion. It's the same reason I play monopoly from time to time, not so I can own everything on the board but to have fun with people and enjoy the time.

Also I don't nessecarily have a problem with speed runs per say but more a problem with newbies being tampled over because hardcores want to use a random party generator to burn through content as fast as possible. Once I've done the story quests etc, speed runs may be something i'll want to do myself but it would be extremely disappointing for such potential to be wasted on token grinding. I'd like to see SE to make dungeons a more whole experience that is rewards more broadly.

As Turbine, developer of LOTRO, released Mines of Moria the instances had a similar problem. They made some pretty nice dungeons wih good mechanics but parts of the community decided to EXPLOIT their way through the bosses.
The solution was pretty simple. A door was built in front of many bosses and a trigger group of enemies was placed/moved to the door. Those who ran had an overwhelming situation.

Giving more tokens for clearing all enemies is just not the solution. As long as the dungeon could be run in time X and be more efficient than killing all creepers...

SE put a good amount of time and work in those dungeons, let's praise em for that work.
If you're put in group with runners let em run, report em while they run. They mostly can't kill the boss without you. :cool:

Seriously: It is an EXPLOIT!

Making it more tedious should not be the way of fixing an issue.
People said it before

- Your repair costs are a lot higher if you clear trash
- Trash doesn't drop anything
- It takes longer
- This is the only instance to farm

Now you give people the option to skip trash.
What do you think that will happen?

You solve problems like this by

- Making trash fun (it can be done)
- Make them drop items
- Have more instances


They might as well remove all the trash in that instance, there is no difference in the experience there.
It's mindless dull and not rewarding.

The thing I don't get is, for those who don't want to speed run, do you really get enjoyment out of clearing trash? I mean, I could understand if you don't want to get rushed through castrum or praetorium, but the trash provides literally 0 value. You don't skip the bosses or anything, which have interesting mechanics and look cool. You just waste your time killing the same mobs over and over.

You people must have loved Molten Core or Serpent Shrine Cavern in WoW.

In level 50 dungeons, there needs to be a reason to kill the trash. It's not like you get any exp, if they added them just so the run would take longer, they should had just made 3 bosses in a row and lowered the rewards by 50% or something.

Before they fix anything about "speed runs", they need to fix the durability loss and how it works. As long as suicide runs are cheaper on repairs, I will be doing them.

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Originally Posted by MBTL90

The thing I don't get is, for those who don't want to speed run, do you really get enjoyment out of clearing trash? I mean, I could understand if you don't want to get rushed through castrum or praetorium, but the trash provides literally 0 value. You don't skip the bosses or anything, which have interesting mechanics and look cool. You just waste your time killing the same mobs over and over.

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I do! I really like that. I like to appreciate the work done in those dungeons. I like to PLAY their intended way. In fact I couldn't care less about the tokens or loot a boss drops if the whole was made pretty well.

Let me ask you. What is your intention to do a dungeon? Loot, Challenge, the next Dungeon, being the first?
Would you run dungeons with only one Boss?

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Originally Posted by Feilina

I do! I really like that. I like to appreciate the work done in those dungeons. I like to PLAY their intended way. In fact I couldn't care less about the tokens or loot a boss drops if the whole was made pretty well.

Let me ask you. What is your intention to do a dungeon? Loot, Challenge, the next Dungeon, being the first?
Would you run dungeons with only one Boss?

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The thing is, that most games nowadays give you something for killing the trash. Maybe Sell-loot, rare-drops, crafting materials, some sort of secondary xp gain (factions, alternate achievement xp, or something similar) or just plain old money. That is what most dungeon runners have come to expect, and here they are greeted with the exact opposite (every trash mob killed is money and time wasted, with no return gained).

This is especially visible in the dungeon finder, where people most likely don't group for the friendly, social experience, but for the reward the dungeon run nets them. Like it or not, that is pretty much the truth, and i can't even be mad at them .. why bother being "social" when there is no chance to ever see the people you group with again. If you view it this way, speedrunning/trash-skipping is the logical conclusion. You might want to do a slow run, the first time .. to learn the ways, to watch the scenery, but after the 10th, 50th, 100th time doing the same thing over and over again .. everyone who violently argues against speedrunning under all circumstances just seems to lack basic empathy.

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Originally Posted by Sepiriz

The thing is, that most games nowadays give you something for killing the trash. Maybe Sell-loot, rare-drops, crafting materials, some sort of secondary xp gain (factions, alternate achievement xp, or something similar) or just plain old money. That is what most dungeon runners have come to expect, and here they are greeted with the exact opposite (every trash mob killed is money and time wasted, with no return gained).

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It is killing trash, do you really expect getting pink loot on a predictable rate?
There is a secondary XP gain -> Materia and soul binding
Do the math with pink items and a good "white" crafted one with materia in it.

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Originally Posted by Sepiriz

This is especially visible in the dungeon finder, where people most likely don't group for the friendly, social experience, but for the reward the dungeon run nets them. Like it or not, that is pretty much the truth, and i can't even be mad at them .. why bother being "social" when there is no chance to ever see the people you group with again. If you view it this way, speedrunning/trash-skipping is the logical conclusion. You might want to do a slow run, the first time .. to learn the ways, to watch the scenery, but after the 10th, 50th, 100th time doing the same thing over and over again .. everyone who violently argues against speedrunning under all circumstances just seems to lack basic empathy.

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Begin to enjoy playing and stop to work. Is it really your intention to break the intended way just to get loot? Loot seems to be the only thing you enjoy, you don't even realise that there are 2nd exp gains...