Seeking Help From Experts: Tanking

Hello, Square Enix Forumites! Today I'd like to talk to you all about tanking, or rather, I'd like to ask for help from you all. I've only recently hit level twenty-seven, so I've done a few dungeons already, but something's been nagging at me ever since beating Ifrit, and it's making it hard for me to focus. I'll give several examples so I can expertly convey my point here.

I normally tank by running straight in to the crowd and setting off Flash, blinding the enemy, and targeting each one every now and again to keep all of the hate focused on me. When an enemy gets in to an orange range instead of a red one, I'll use Provoke to bring them back over to me until everything is dead. Rinse and repeat, and that's that. Sometimes, I admit, I'll be stupid and be out of the healer's range, but there's only a rare chance of me being so foolish I'd forge ahead alone. So, aside from that stupid mistake of being away from the healer, sometimes I can't hold the enemies off the mages and healer alone, so whoever is the strongest damage dealer comes in and helps me pull the enemy away from the weaker guys. I make a point to force the enemy to look away from my team so they don't get inside of any attack ranges, as well. Either they're looking away, or they aren't near my squishy group of people.

Waay back when I fought Ifrit for the first time since the beta, I tried to follow a similar strategy. I kept Ifrit turned away from everybody else, but circled him after locking-on so I could at least mitigate some damage done to me. There was this one archer who was dealing more damage than I could after I ran out of TP, so he had Ifrit chasing him around the field. I did what I could to try to pull Ifrit back to me, but the archer died anyway. So after the second damage dealer was down it was just me and the healer. I had to tank twice as well to keep Ifrit focused on me, but we lost anyway because it was just the two of us...but hey, we ALMOST won! I wouldn't have a problem since we won after the first defeat, but the archer claimed that I sucked as a tank...that hurt since I thought I was doing pretty well, and I think my fear of not taking ENOUGH damage causes me to die more often or take stupid risks that put my team in danger.

It is for this reason that I seek help from the experts before I reach level thirty and people REALLY start chewing me out for not doing my job! Please, tell me how to be a more effective tank!

It sounds like you're doing your job well, it's the DPS' fault for pulling hate. This game isn't a DPS race as much as most MMO's and people haven't quite grasped that yet and unload everything to be the best, but it goes the opposite when they instead pull a lot of hate and make the run longer. I would say from what you've said you're doing everything right, but it's hard to say without seeing first hand.

I certainly never took a video of myself, but I can try to give an in-depth look in to how things work if that helps? I just finished a run in Toto-Rak, after all.

Nah it's ok, like I said it seems like you're doing the right thing but there will always be hard times, especially with THM/BLM. I had a wanderers palace run yesterday which I've tanked a lot over the past few days, but with 2 BLM. No matter how hard I tried there were times where I would lose hate. The other party members were really great and never said anything about it, I just explained it was hard to keep them on me and they understood, and it never took me that long to get hate back. There will always be players who take pleasure from insulting tanks and healers, best thing to do is ignore them. As I said in another post on here, being a tank is about taking hate from players as well as mobs.

As an archer i've pulled my share of hate until i learned to build up my dmg slowly instead of going all out. I've never, ever, complained about it though because it was my own fault

Only tip i can think of as dps is that i love when tanks mark the target kill order

What most dps players fail to realize is that enmity management is a team effort, and is not just the tank's job.

Many DPS tend to go in full fledge and not understand mechanics, even so called experienced ones. Early on I had to realize quickly and when I DPS hold off early on till I see the tank has suffcicient enimity, then I can let loose.

I normally like ranged DPS with archers, but lately, many are doing it carelessly. OF grabbing hate strafing like ffools, and expecting us to chase down mobs, which isn't happening with most tanks. THey let them deal and learn.

Those type players are the loudest mouths, and it is a relief to leave, get a new party, and see how well it can be when they are not involved, or misguiding others. Eventually such people will realize, all the acchive is looking like unsocialized animals with a lack o f real logic.

Try to mark. It really isn't needed if a player knows his controls and learns to swap target focus fast, and see where enimity is. FOr less experienced, it can help them. Or if they are not aware of helpful kll orders.

Is there a certain order I'd be marking enemies in? Also, does it matter how they're marked if they're all the same enemy? Do I target the strongest foes first to lessen the load on the healer, or ones that die faster to decrease our chances of getting our butts handed back to us because we were mobbed?

As a healer I really appreciate the way you think, and imo, that's what makes you a good tank, just that you care.
I've been in some terrible parties lately who just don't give a rats ass about adds surrounding me during boss fights, and then afterwards even go on to complain about that I died.
It's also the DPS's job to get the adds off, everything is better than my heals being interrupted and causing a wipe. It's not that hard to heal a dps or two at the same time, at least not in the early dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Soldowner

Is there a certain order I'd be marking enemies in? Also, does it matter how they're marked if they're all the same enemy? Do I target the strongest foes first to lessen the load on the healer, or ones that die faster to decrease our chances of getting our butts handed back to us because we were mobbed?

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Oooh, yeah, any help anyone can give about marking enemies would be greatly appreciated! macro's and such especially, as the game is so fast paced, I think anything other than macro'd marking wouldn't work.

:) Help?

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Originally Posted by Soldowner

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I'll tell you what I see from a distance as the healer.
1) WS often. A lot of tanks that I see ws hard and often. Damage=hate, obviously. More actions seems to help too. (at least, that's what it looked like to me as a healer)
2) With multiple mobs, the tanks will often cycle through mobs. Not in a "Okay, I've hit this one. Move to next one." fashion. But if the mob is close to death, feel free to change to the next one.
3) Shield lob. Does fairly good enmity and it's ranged. Will often get a mob to hate you again if the hate scale is just tipped.
4) Self heal, if you have a free moment. I think there's a formula somewhere that says 1hp healed is 2x the hate that 1 dmg done on the mob gets. If not, no worries. That's what us healers are for ^^b.
5) Mark mobs? Helps sometimes w/ DPS's that don't look at the hate meter. Having them on the same mob won't force you to split your dmg and focus.

If you're already doing all that, then it sounds like you're already doing a good job as tank. There will be times where the DPS's will do more damage/hate (as they're designed to). If it happens too often, you might want to look into upgrading your gear. If it's just one person in one party, it's probably just him/her. It happens. Just about all melee's have a way to mitigate hate and they should be doing that. If not, not your fault.

Hope this helps. Good luck out there.

Yes, marking enemies helps in small groups of mobs, and as for ifrit, remember to throw in flash here and there, to preserve your TP, so it doesnt drain too fast.

its not as potent as ur Savage blade, or spamming savage blade non stop, but it helps a ton. Provoke only makes u equal to the highest threat, and then adds 1, so if they hit it before u do, they should be higher in threat, even after a provoke. So if you're low on TP, dont provoke right away, unless u know u can spam a few enmity generating abilities right after.

Also mark enemies that are either weak, or going to use range attacks, as they will be out of range of AoEs, unless u start on them 1st.

You want as little dmg on you as possible, so killing weak ones 1st is best. (also kill healers)

Next, start with a ranged attack, and let mobs come to you, this way you're nto taking dmg as u wait on the 2.5 GCD for flash/overpower.

Usually healers love to heal u before u AoE, and so its best to let mobs come to u, and then AoE as they get into range. (There will be no delay in your AoE because the GCD should be over.

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Originally Posted by makii

It's also the DPS's job to get the adds off, everything is better than my heals being interrupted and causing a wipe. It's not that hard to heal a dps or two at the same time, at least not in the early dungeons.

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Agreed. Though, in their defense, sometimes it's hard for dps' to see adds on the healers. If too many adds are on me, I usually either fluid aura then sleep the mob into the crowd of dps' and tank or I'll train them into them. Of course, this has to be used sparingly as any time I take to do this, is time away from curing.

In the hectic of a battle everyone should still take the surroundings into considaration.Make sure that the party can control 'surprise adds'if they spawn from nowhere/ and even prevent this situation to happen where mobs cause chaos.No matter how many time one runs a dungeon,observe the battlefield & enemies carefully before you run in.Otherwise you'll open danger the gate.This is important for everyone to know wether you're tank or not.

As a tank one can still make damage.The key is to be flexible and keep the balance between tanking and demeage dealing.But the main job as a tank is still holding aggro ( sometimes it is even pretty hard to Chase after an enemy/players who run around).I wouldn't say that marking your Opponent is only to help out beginners.Just saying there are tanks who mark mobs for their teamates & those who don't.As long as tanks KNOW HOW do their job properly,they'll be fine without Marks.

Kudos for the honesty.

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Originally Posted by Soldowner

Hello, Square Enix Forumites! Today I'd like to talk to you all about tanking, or rather, I'd like to ask for help from you all. I've only recently hit level twenty-seven, so I've done a few dungeons already, but something's been nagging at me ever since beating Ifrit, and it's making it hard for me to focus. I'll give several examples so I can expertly convey my point here.

I normally tank by running straight in to the crowd and setting off Flash, blinding the enemy, and targeting each one every now and again to keep all of the hate focused on me.

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Shield lob on the way in and put a marking macro in your shield lob. You can then use this to switch as the fight goes on. Once I have more threat than the mob has health (it's something you learn with experience), I change targets and start working on the next. Shield lob puts you a GCD ahead, because it's a ranged attack and your GCD is almost always ready for flash by the time you get to the pack.

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When an enemy gets in to an orange range instead of a red one, I'll use Provoke to bring them back over to me until everything is dead.

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I think you should save provoke for when it actually switches targets, although once you're doing your job right, things won't usually be switching targets^^

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Rinse and repeat, and that's that. Sometimes, I admit, I'll be stupid and be out of the healer's range, but there's only a rare chance of me being so foolish I'd forge ahead alone. So, aside from that stupid mistake of being away from the healer, sometimes I can't hold the enemies off the mages and healer alone, so whoever is the strongest damage dealer comes in and helps me pull the enemy away from the weaker guys. I make a point to force the enemy to look away from my team so they don't get inside of any attack ranges, as well. Either they're looking away, or they aren't near my squishy group of people.

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Waay back when I fought Ifrit for the first time since the beta, I tried to follow a similar strategy. I kept Ifrit turned away from everybody else, but circled him after locking-on so I could at least mitigate some damage done to me. There was this one archer who was dealing more damage than I could after I ran out of TP, so he had Ifrit chasing him around the field. I did what I could to try to pull Ifrit back to me, but the archer died anyway. So after the second damage dealer was down it was just me and the healer. I had to tank twice as well to keep Ifrit focused on me, but we lost anyway because it was just the two of us...but hey, we ALMOST won! I wouldn't have a problem since we won after the first defeat, but the archer claimed that I sucked as a tank...that hurt since I thought I was doing pretty well, and I think my fear of not taking ENOUGH damage causes me to die more often or take stupid risks that put my team in danger.

It is for this reason that I seek help from the experts before I reach level thirty and people REALLY start chewing me out for not doing my job! Please, tell me how to be a more effective tank!

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Have no fear. At low levels, anything can tank most things. I just healed a THM through tanking the last boss of Toto-Rak. Our tank really was trying but he has a lot of learning to do, and I very politely told him places he could go to learn.

Anyway, anything can tank, and people used to that from other MMOs don't give a poo about your pride or the healer's mana. Around level 30, PLD / WAR starts getting access to much higher defense and your targets start expecting that and so not everything else can tank so easily. I think half the reason so many people hate Brayflox is that it's the dungeon where people learn that they aren't tanks unless they're wearing plate. It's also the first dungeon to strain a healer or a tank.

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Originally Posted by Soldowner

I certainly never took a video of myself, but I can try to give an in-depth look in to how things work if that helps? I just finished a run in Toto-Rak, after all.

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I've had issues with BLM/THM lately just spamming their fire like crazy until they have no MP at all and ALL the aggro. I try to explain to them to stop with fire when their aggro bar gets too high and stack up their MP with ice to drop aggro. "Stfu I know what I'm doing." Obviously not :\

I've definitely seen some dps running around like headless chicken, keep on attacking after they've had the aggro forever, and then freak out on the tank for not keeping the aggro. and I'm not making a statement about ARR here, I'm making a statment of every single MMO I've played at release - ever.
more recent examples in this case would be SW:TOR and TSW.
people (read: dps) eventually learn that a dungeon is a team effort. they will eventually realise that when the aggro-indicator is already showing orange they better hold off for a second. there's only one reason a dps should EVER even remotely try to get the aggro, and that's if there's mobs going for the healer and there's no way for the tank to get all of them (there are certainly fights/bossfights where the tank isn't even supposed to get the hate from all spawns)

as a fellow healer, I love tanks such as the OP. don't get discouraged. us healbots need you!

I tank myself and find it easier to get rid of the fast to die enemies then everyone can focus on the main target. But for this strategy to work DPs have to target the enemy that everyone is targeting to kill them fast. The healer is The King In the game keep him/her safe. If an enemy slip pass me i try to regain hate. when i come up to a boss i like to number the targets. If i cant we try and get something together before we start the fight. Most player will help you out if they just know what to do. So tanks we have to explain what we are trying to do. All the people I have ran with all were willing to learn and get better at there rolls and by the time we got to the boss we have learn how each other played so we had no problems.

As a fellow tank, here are some thumb rules for easier tanking.

1. Mark monsters. You can also tell them to focus what YOU are targeting and it usually works better than marking.

2. Tell the healer to not overheal you and never use anything above Cure I unless necessary.

3. If the DPS ignore your focus, are doing more damage than your Enmity generation make sure to tell them what they are doing wrong. If they keep ignoring, let them get enmity and die, this works like a charm with any DPS who thinks they are entitled to see big numbers and ruin the teamwork.

4. Single target WS that generate enmity are more effective than flash for generating enmity. You should be flashing only when there are 3 or more mobs and do so at a rate of 3~4 WS, this will clear Healer aggro and DoT aggro from Arcanists.

5. Put points into strength every so often.

6. When fighting bosses, try to interrupt AoEs that can harm your party, if they are only headed to you then just dodge instead of wasting TP/CDs.

7. Never spam flash on bosses, unless you are trying to gather Adds.

8. Get cross class skills for palading in advance and start using them to your advantage.

9. If anyone in your party is in a hurry, aggroes monsters without waiting for you etc. let them die, and ask them why they are doing that. It's usually smart to let the you as the tank gather the inital enmity as it just makes it easier for you to maintain it.

Other than that, you are doing a pretty good job at tanking, I can't stress it enough how important is to communicate with the party and make your intentions clear.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Flash only makes u equal to the highest threat, and then adds 1, so if they hit it before u do, they should be higher in threat, even after a provoke.

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I think your backwards, flash only adds 550 enmity (1100 with shield oath)
Provoke is the +=1 tool

http://valk.dancing-mad.com

Mark your mobs, shield lob 1 as you run in and when they all come at you drop flash in the middle of them, make sure the target you shield lobbed is 1 as thats the one the dps will target first, after flash, do fast blade> savage blade twice on it, then drop flash again as by then the healer will have started to build a decent ammount of hate.

Try to position yourself with the mobs in between you and the party, that way you can keep an eye on all of the mobs, if one breaks away for your healer shield lob/tomohawk/provoke it, it normally comes back to you, if the dps is not following your marks thats not your fault, they have a deathwish, let them have thier wish granted.


If you have a thm/black mage in your party either use the bind markings on the second and third mob or just tell them to sleep 2 and 3, if you do you only need to flash once most times if they do sleep them, when 1 dies and you attack 2 open with fast blade> savage blade to cement hate on that mob first before any other actions.

When marking, if there is a ranged mob mark it as 1, it will be out of your range as you kill the other and agro the healer, if there are healer mobs kill them first for obvious reasons. Don't be afraid to pop rampart when pulling groups of 3 or more to lessen the burden on the healer.

Yeah, you seem to have the right idea. Here's what I posted in another forum about advice on tanking:

Provoke does not establish threat. It's an emergency skill that puts you at the top of the mob's threat list for a VERY short window of time. It's only purpose is to stop a mob from getting to the healer once you've lost aggro on it. It's useless as a way to accumulate threat. Here's a good protocol for a 3 mob pull:

-Shield Toss main target
-Flash
-Savage blade combo main target
-Flash (the blind debuff will have come off by the time you use Savage blade, allowing you to use it again)
-Blade of Halone secondary target
-Savage blade combo tertiary target
-Flash
-Blade of Halone main target


Also, many tanks think they can spam Flash for group threat. You cannot. While the Blind debuff is up from Flash, another use of Flash will have no effect. You need to wait until the Blind debuff is gone before Flash will apply enmity again. That's why you weave it in with your Enmity combo (it doesn't reset the combo... you can continue to Blade of Halcyon even after using it after Savage Blade). That, and Flash only works 3 times on a target before not having effect.

Not that you need this advice necessarily, but it's good information to have.

On your question about marking, there are usually groups of 3 mobs where 1 is a "main" mob and the other 2 are kinda minions as such. What I mean by this is that 1 mob will use an AOE move of some sort and have red markers that are usually conal that the DPS/healer need to stay out of.

You'll learn which mob is which when you run the dungeons for the first time and can use that knowledge later on when you run the dungeon again. I usually mark these main mobs first as the others don't need to be downed as fast, in the case of there being 2 main mobs which does happen, just mark them as 1-2. It's perfectly fine to not know the most effective kill order on your first run and if people kick up a fuss, make them mark.

I play on the PS3 so use the cross bar and keep L+directional buttons 1, 2 and 3 for marking 1, 2 and 3. I keep cure on the 4th one so I can top myself up if theres a big move coming up and helps hate a little. Never had a problem this way.

I spam Flash all the time on my GLD after the Blind enhancement and I can clearly see other people's enmity bar being lowered. Flash generates about as much threat as a comboed Savage Blade. Before Rage of Halone, you can Savage Blade every 5s. You can Flash every 2.5s. No reason not to spam your highest enmity per second move on trash.

The best advice I can give for struggling GLD/PAL is to keep your weapon up to date. Your weapon affects the potency of all your enmity skills, including Flash. If your weapon is 10 levels below you, you're gonna have a hard time holding threat. I was in a group with a GLD that was weilding the level 10 spanking stick in Halatoli the other day... boy did that run suck.

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Originally Posted by Kyp

I think your backwards, flash only adds 550 enmity (1100 with shield oath)
Provoke is the +=1 tool

http://valk.dancing-mad.com

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I meant to say Provoke, but for w/e reason said Flash :P

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Also, many tanks think they can spam Flash for group threat. You cannot. While the Blind debuff is up from Flash, another use of Flash will have no effect. You need to wait until the Blind debuff is gone before Flash will apply enmity again.

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Is there any evidence to support this? From my experience Flash works everytime to increase my enmity, even if the Blind component has no effect/is fully resisted.

On marking, it really depends on the group of mobs. Personally, I would tend to weight it on two things, how disruptive/dangerous a mob is, and how fast a mob dies. Haukke Manor has a good example of a disruptive and dangerous enemy that should be prioritized in a dungeon, the matrons. Most of the time it depends on your party as a whole, if feel the healer is going to be the weaker link, give more priority to the faster kills, if the DDs focus more on the ones that will be more disruptive/dangerous if allowed to go wild.

As to DDs pulling hate, most of the time that is entirely their fault. Though there are times to not worry about it, like they picking up adds, peeling off the healer, or the mob is almost dead.

Personally, being a tank also means making the battle predictable,making it easier for healers and DDs to position themselves, as such a tank shouldn't move frequently unless absolutely required, for bosses that cleaves (forward cone splash damage) its best to not bring the boss towards the group, even if there are adds or when you're low and needs heals; doing so adds chaos and dramatically increase the chances of a wipe.

Interrupt enemy skills if possible to mitigate damage, otherwise, for forward cone skills, move through the boss to its rear and immediately return to the front once the casting bar completes, the animation delay allows you to get back in position without turning the boss to face the melee DDs. This is oftenly employed in Garuda H when she uses Slipstream

Make the healer's job easier by activating Convalescence and defensive CDs whenever you can or if you're familiar with the battle's patterns, use when you're expecting to receive a damage spike such as during Garuda H when adds are out and 1 or even both of the healers needs to divert healing focus on to other party members

In times where a healer needs to ress, give them the window of opportunity by using Hallowed Ground (for PLD) this allows them to briefly stop healing you and cast Raise on a fallen comrade.

Tanking is to make the jobs of others easier, as such you'll have to be aware of the difficulties faced by DDs and Healers, utilise Utility skills and be aware of the surroundings in order to steer the battle. If a healer is the heart and lifeblood of a party and DDs the arms and legs, a Tank would be the brain that co-ordinates it all.

I heard that you cannot spam Flash none stop. It will make mob immune to Flash and will not work anymore. Is this true? How often should you be spamming flash? Only been tanking in 1.0 and skills have seam to change a lot.

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Originally Posted by Zaiken

I heard that you cannot spam Flash none stop. It will make mob immune to Flash and will not work anymore. Is this true? How often should you be spamming flash? Only been tanking in 1.0 and skills have seam to change a lot.

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Spamming Flash will cause enemy resistance to Blind but you'll still receive Enmity gains. Though the amount of Enmity gained is insufficient to maintain Enmity on multiple mobs for the entire duration of the battle.

Thus, tanks typically rotate their attacks on all mobs to maintain Enmity but this isn't very effective if you are facing 3 or more mobs. In such situation, you'll have to get someone with Binding skills (e.g Sleep) to bind the adds and focus on 1