True Tactics

I have played quite a few MMOs and one thing that I have noticed they all seem to share is the strategy. Sure you can change it up slightly but in the end it all boils down to He's a tank he's a DD and he heals. Really these strategies can be fun but they can get a bit shallow when you think about it. Because it all boils down to "use this WS... now, and now use this WS"

Where are the real tactics? It would be awesome to put archers on hills for height advantage, put DD behind enemies for back attacks, surrounding the enemies gave you damage bonuses, and keeping enemies in front of you gave defensive bonuses. And these bonuses extend to the opponents (of course they should be disabled for leviquests of lower difficulty levels to keep solo and small party players happy)!

This kind of system would make combat dynamic and give it movement as both player and enemy, struggle for the best position. Of course some things would need to be added to make it work, such as a sprint button to let you move into position quickly or quickly disengage an opponent and move to a better spot, and a slight knock back effect on WS that lets you keep your opponents where you want them (or where they want you if you're not careful!).

Here are some examples of how it could work.

Keeping enemies in front of you means all your defenses are on them, this gives you a slight bonus to defense, this just means that 2 or more players have their enemies in their sight (not on the screen sight but give them their own actual cone of vision and put it on the mini map during fights). This boost only goes to the people up front watching and anyone behind them, so if you have two Gladiators defending up front with all the enemies in front of them then anyone they are defending also gets the boost (because the attack has to get behind them first) this could be used to shield healers and archers, best used in a corner where the environment keeps the enemy directly in front of you the rest of your party can then attack from behind.

Surrounding the enemy is the best thing you can do, but it wont be easy as they will try to stop that from happening. When the enemy is surrounded you have the attack bonus caused from overwhelming your opponent, the defense bonus as he is right in front of all your players, and the people behind the enemy give back attacks dealing extra damage. But enemies will keep trying to get out, so you will have to time WS to make sure they stay were they are.

those are some of the ways that tactics could be added to the game. I would love to see an MMO where combat moves and actual teamwork and tactics play a part in the game.

I agree, and I've unfortunately watched some NM battles and it looks just as boring and repetitive as it was in WoW.

Basically, all the melee attackers stand around the NM while ranged attackers attack from range and healers heal.

It doesn't exactly seem like the kind of thing that would entice me to get to endgame...

some of this actually was in this game before, dunno about now. But you used to take more dmg from your back, attacking monsters from the rear increased crits i think. Positional combat seems to have gotten downplayed.

lancer still has increased movement speed in battle when you hit 20, and you can put that on any job, and they had jump for them in the dats. I think SE could add a jump back skill/ability to some classes though.

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Originally Posted by Physic

some of this actually was in this game before, dunno about now. But you used to take more dmg from your back, attacking monsters from the rear increased crits i think. Positional combat seems to have gotten downplayed.

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I seriously hope they are working on this aspect of the game: positional combat and strategies, adding a greater bonus/penalty for good or bad positions in combat. We have all these new possibilities and technologies, yet, the development team is using few of them and things look like every other MMORPGs from 10 years ago (FFXIV is too similar to FFXI in many aspects regarding the combat rules/environment -- in other word OUTDATED).

People have been complaining about lack of strategies in combat and that's why they want more define roles. Sure, more define roles could help a bit, but combat will remain the same boring activity: stand anywhere near the monster, press a few buttons to manage aggro and deal damages, wait for the monster to die. What will make a difference in combat is tactics and strategies! For that, we need a real incentive in positioning around the monster (real visible change when attacking from the side, from the back or the front). These incentives can be weaker defences for the monster on certain sides, unlock devastating attacks from the monster on certain sides (from the back, a monster with a big tail could whip us with it dealing knockback), have monster no necessarily FACE us when fighting but try to attack us from the side or behind, have the monsters try to use different parts of their body to attack (a tailed monster turning around to fight with it's tail instead of it's claws --- for more than 2 seconds. Right now it would be a 2 seconds special attack, with no change to the dynamic of the fight). That would make combat much more interesting. A monster with high defence in the back that turn around to attack you from the back, now that requires a minimum change in strategy to keep dealing maximum damages, for example.

you know, this seemed like the logical progression when the game first started, a lot of regular normal mobs had little strategies and playstyles, heck efts will attack you differently depending on where you attack them from, antelopes will foot kick you if try to fight them back there. so i would have imagined that later monsters would use these factors even more, the more complex mobs, but ehhh its a new team, and it sounds like a lot of people want combat to be less involved, closer to ffxi. They definately need to up the max level for experience, because most strategy is trumped by high level people beating the mob down.
even if it exists, people may avoid those monster types.

Thats one advantage of dungeons, people will actually have to fight whats there. Also they could group different mob types together, so that people can just cherry pick the easy mob, or the non tactics using mobs.

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Originally Posted by Physic

Thats one advantage of dungeons, people will actually have to fight whats there. Also they could group different mob types together, so that people can just cherry pick the easy mob, or the non tactics using mobs.

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This is why I loved limbus and nyzul, we had to fight SCARY mobs no one ever wanted to touch in exp parties. Flayers <3

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you know, this seemed like the logical progression when the game first started, a lot of regular normal mobs had little strategies and playstyles, heck efts will attack you differently depending on where you attack them from, antelopes will foot kick you if try to fight them back there. so i would have imagined that later monsters would use these factors even more, the more complex mobs, but ehhh its a new team, and it sounds like a lot of people want combat to be less involved, closer to ffxi. They definately need to up the max level for experience, because most strategy is trumped by high level people beating the mob down.
even if it exists, people may avoid those monster types.

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Yeah they should expand on positional attacks, and incapacitates and stuff imo, but for that to work combat needs to be more "fluid". Right now combat is all laggy and horrible, it's hard to actually position yourself properly most of the time because of how using a WS/attack makes you face the mob, and how casting spells lags you like a gil farmer.

I would definitely love a more positional fluid based combat system! I love dodging moles underground attack, dodos conal, puks frontal, gnats frontal, etc etc.

haha i rem the first time i saw a gnat disapear, re appear behind you and do an electric hadoken...


well actually the first time it disapeared, and then never reapeared but could attack you..... due to a bug.....


BUT THE IDEA WAS AWESOME lol.

The problem is that there is no singular answer, and it's obvious that some effort was made to prevent this from happening in FFXIV. Part of it is battle system, part of it is creature design, and another part of it is character design... Recently games have had a trend of playing to the 3 role system (XIV, not being one of them), which in my opinion is for the worst.

The object is to take the need for "DPS" (Damage per second), "Tanking" (having characters designed to take and deliver damage) and "Support" (the poorly coined term for PCs dedicated to making the rest of the party better). XIV tackles the issue of PC design in this respect, but falls just short of the cigar because of the battle mechanics which use cooldowns to balance out the actions. So while anyone martial job can "Tank" and "Support" via tech'd armory skills, there is still an effect of damage per second and battle "speed'.

To break this, battles need to become more of a matter of which skill is chosen based on the situation, not how much damage a single skill does. This means that players cannot build a character around a few skills, but instead that they must be able to use a full gamut effectively to survive. Part of the problem here is that skills simply upgrade with the player's rank- so skills don't incorporate many other factors than damage, element, status effects or healing. For example, if monsters have an assigned but slightly randomized (apon spawning) weight range, and- say a Pugilist has a skill which has an extra modifier for the creature's weight (a 'la Pokemon), suddenly that skill gains a use. However, if Pugilists have a move which deals excess damage, with no conditioning other than TP expendature- then it becomes more fodder to the DPS machine. Skills need conditioning, and I think Heavy/Light-strikes should be the only "raw attack" skills available.

They tried to mainstream the audience that could play this game, that means "dumbing down", the average person who wants to pick up an mmo now a days can not handle the old school strategy. Which is sad, don't get me wrong, I want strategy back, but it seems the masses are dumb or the gaming companies think the masses are dumb.

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Originally Posted by Augury

The problem is that there is no singular answer, and it's obvious that some effort was made to prevent this from happening in FFXIV. Part of it is battle system, part of it is creature design, and another part of it is character design... Recently games have had a trend of playing to the 3 role system (XIV, not being one of them), which in my opinion is for the worst.

The object is to take the need for "DPS" (Damage per second), "Tanking" (having characters designed to take and deliver damage) and "Support" (the poorly coined term for PCs dedicated to making the rest of the party better). XIV tackles the issue of PC design in this respect, but falls just short of the cigar because of the battle mechanics which use cooldowns to balance out the actions. So while anyone martial job can "Tank" and "Support" via tech'd armory skills, there is still an effect of damage per second and battle "speed'.

To break this, battles need to become more of a matter of which skill is chosen based on the situation, not how much damage a single skill does. This means that players cannot build a character around a few skills, but instead that they must be able to use a full gamut effectively to survive. Part of the problem here is that skills simply upgrade with the player's rank- so skills don't incorporate many other factors than damage, element, status effects or healing. For example, if monsters have an assigned but slightly randomized (apon spawning) weight range, and- say a Pugilist has a skill which has an extra modifier for the creature's weight (a 'la Pokemon), suddenly that skill gains a use. However, if Pugilists have a move which deals excess damage, with no conditioning other than TP expendature- then it becomes more fodder to the DPS machine. Skills need conditioning, and I think Heavy/Light-strikes should be the only "raw attack" skills available.

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And this system does not take away that, it just adds some more depth to it. Even strategy games have tanks DD and Support, it is just that with this it goes from "you tank, you heal, you hit" and goes to "Archers and mages hide behind tanks, they attacked, DD round behind them for back attacks" it keeps the system everyone knows and loves, it just is meant to add on to what people are doing. Suddenly people are paying attention to their enemies and surroundings, and using their skills as effectively as possible as to minimize chances of enemies gaining the upper hand.

It keeps what you say MMOs need and adds more depth for those willing to look into it and truly master it.

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Originally Posted by zaviermhigo

They tried to mainstream the audience that could play this game, that means "dumbing down", the average person who wants to pick up an mmo now a days can not handle the old school strategy. Which is sad, don't get me wrong, I want strategy back, but it seems the masses are dumb or the gaming companies think the masses are dumb.

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Making a game for the masses usually does seem to mean dumbing it down, but this is a problem with the developers as many feel that the masses don't want to think, but button mash. True there are probably many who would rather just mash randomly and grow quickly. But it's also true that many would rather have their minds engaged and be able to better their battle efficiency and performance with some good old thinking.

There is a reason Mario games are so popular with both hardcores and the masses. Because they know how to engage your brain and give you goals that make you proud to have achieved. And they had both main achievements and THEN more difficult stuff.

To use another Mario refrence to show my point- button mashing in this game should be enough to let you beat it, but the tactics should be the only way your collecting ALL the stars! In other words, let the masses play how they want, but leave the option to do this for those who are willing to really get into the game.

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Originally Posted by RemnantWolf

Making a game for the masses usually does seem to mean dumbing it down, but this is a problem with the developers as many feel that the masses don't want to think, but button mash. True there are probably many who would rather just mash randomly and grow quickly. But it's also true that many would rather have their minds engaged and be able to better their battle efficiency and performance with some good old thinking.

There is a reason Mario games are so popular with both hardcores and the masses. Because they know how to engage your brain and give you goals that make you proud to have achieved. And they had both main achievements and THEN more difficult stuff.

To use another Mario refrence to show my point- button mashing in this game should be enough to let you beat it, but the tactics should be the only way your collecting ALL the stars! In other words, let the masses play how they want, but leave the option to do this for those who are willing to really get into the game.

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This is because the Mario games involve more than simple calculation, most MMOs have the same flaw as an overly convoluted game of Dungeons and Dragons- everything becomes a matter of calculation. Your options hit the funnel of "what will deal the most damage in the shortest amount of time". A player should not be able to funnel everything into a common currency- making there be a reason for dynamic battling. In group play this translate to having to look beyond the common roles- combining them in some sense

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Originally Posted by Augury

This is because the Mario games involve more than simple calculation, most MMOs have the same flaw as an overly convoluted game of Dungeons and Dragons- everything becomes a matter of calculation. Your options hit the funnel of "what will deal the most damage in the shortest amount of time". A player should not be able to funnel everything into a common currency- making there be a reason for dynamic battling. In group play this translate to having to look beyond the common roles- combining them in some sense

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I'm sorry I was unclear as to what I meant. I should probably stop trying to be clever and just get to my point.

What I was saying is that people can beat games with the least amount of skills needed. This helps games have a easy to learn, hard to master style that works well for casuals and hardcores alike. Because it leaves most of the game open to all the players, yet for those who are truly dedicated, there are ways for them to accomplish greater feats with some skill and know how. The people who have spent hours mastering tactics to keep their enemy where they want them will become the greats, that accomplish everything.

So my idea is to add some more tactics for people who want to use them. Never did I say that the game should be impossible unless you use them. Because you are right, many MMOs become calculation games, this system means you have to have cooperation skills, and the ability to quickly execute your plan, adding some more of that "more than simple calculation" to the system.