Insurection!

We need to force these people to realize what a big problem the no afk issue is. The fact that it is even a question makes me doubt if they've learned anything over the past 3 years. I propose that instead of logging out everyone goes afk around the crystal of whatever town you are in and sit. Yes, it means there will still be a lot of people that cannot get in, but apparently that will be the only way to make a point. Why is there even resistance on this?

Uhhh...people are already doing that.

The guys over at SE are professionals and have monitoring tools. I guarantee you that SE saw the issue coming before you ever experienced it. Though there was no way to stop it anymore.

SE knows the issues and SE goes for the (in their eyes) best approach to deal with it. If they think that enhancing the servers would be the best thing to do there is a 99% chance that they're actually right. Your opinion on an technical issue as a customer(!) is just useless, because you have literally no clue.

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Originally Posted by c2pbro

The guys over at SE are professionals and have monitoring tools. I guarantee you that SE saw the issue coming before you ever experienced it. Though there was no way to stop it anymore.

SE knows the issues and SE goes for the (in their eyes) best approach to deal with it. If they think that enhancing the servers would be the best thing to do there is a 99% chance that they're actually right. Your opinion on an technical issue as a customer(!) is just useless, because you have literally no clue.

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This isn't a technical issue. It's a moral issue.

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Originally Posted by JosiahGrey

This isn't a technical issue. It's a moral issue.

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Hahahaha, wow.

Blaming the players for the way the game handles logins is a whole new level of white knight that I would have honestly thought impossible, but there are indeed people like that.

Well these "professionals" seem to have screwed the pooch over and over again so forgive me if I don't put all my faith in them. But you are right. I am just a consumer. Just a gamer. Just someone who has been playing these games for well over a decade and can't figure out why they decided to go in this direction. Maybe they have a good reason for it. I'd be glad to be shut up by a good one.

I assumed we were just doing it to be selfish, I mean i want everyone to do it on purpose with intent.

They did make a comment addressing the afk kick everyone wants. It's something they are aware of but stated that they felt it was more important right now to focus on the servers. Maybe they have something in store, who knows.

Honestly i don't know how many more people i want running around, but either way, I guess we will see tomorrow morning.

OK, so...

You guys don't see blocking other players' access to the game so that you can play whenever you want as being selfish, and therefore falling into the realm of moral behavior?

I get it...SE made you do that so it's not your fault.

It was never a matter of being selfish, AFKing is for many people the only way to feasibly play the game at all. When trying to login is random chance and requires active attention thanks to no login queue, people who live active lives at work and home have maybe 1-3 hours of leisure time a day, and likely during peak hours (hint: they are peak hours because thats when majority of people can play, duh). So when it might take up to an hour to login and you have to sit there and mindlessly bash your face against the login server... that doesn't help. These same people have a much better chance of getting on early in the morning before work, and then never logging out so they can play when they get home. It isn't their fault the game is designed this way and it is buttfucked that people would blame AFKers for taking up server capacity. You have to be a level 51 white knight to blindly ignore such a glaring design flaw.

And the thing is, an AFK kick timer is not a resource-heavy endeavor. It would be foolish to assume that SQEX doesn't know how to do it or otherwise CANT do it. It's much more likely that there is no AFK kick timer by design. Until they tell us why this is how it is... it is very bad design.

Ruru-

I do understand what you're saying about the game being flawed by design. Really.

Still, there is a moral component in deciding you are thereby justified to take an action which you know will restrict another player's access to the game.

SE should fix this. Ideally, we should choose to do that which is right. I know, I'm just a crazy dreamer.

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Originally Posted by JosiahGrey

OK, so...

You guys don't see blocking other players' access to the game so that you can play whenever you want as being selfish, and therefore falling into the realm of moral behavior?

I get it...SE made you do that so it's not your fault.

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OK, so....

You think that the game is just fine without login queues that would guarantee the player a spot in the game so they wouldn't have to AFK to guarantee it otherwise. It's also fine that there are no AFK kick timers that would free up server capacity for people who are waiting to play and ensure that the previously mentioned login queue moves along steadily?

I get it... SE is a perfect company and makes the best games devoid of any real flaws.

No, Ruru, I don't think the game is just fine. I've complained about and advocated for those very things in other threads.

All I'm saying is that doesn't justify selfish behavior on our part.

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Originally Posted by JosiahGrey

Ruru-

I do understand what you're saying about the game being flawed by design. Really.

Still, there is a moral component in deciding you are thereby justified to take an action which you know will restrict another player's access to the game.

SE should fix this. Ideally, we should choose to do that which is right. I know, I'm just a crazy dreamer.

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Do what is right? We PAID MONEY to play this game and you're saying the RIGHT thing to do is to not try to play it? I can't. I can't even. You're a level 52 White Knight. Please humor me, tell me how someone who has bought the game with their own money, works an 8 or 9 hour shift plus transit time, comes home and makes dinner, does daily chores around the house, and finally sits down at his/her computer and cant play because they dont have the time to forcibly shove their way into their server is supposed to 'do what is right'.

To put ANY amount of blame on the players for how things currently work is just... there are no words.

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Originally Posted by Rurushan

Please humor me, tell me how someone who has bought the game with their own money, works an 8 or 9 hour shift plus transit time, comes home and makes dinner, does daily chores around the house, and finally sits down at his/her computer and cant play because they dont have the time to forcibly shove their way into their server is supposed to 'do what is right'.

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Well, basically, that would be me. I've chosen to not play until Wednesday after the big server "fix". We'll see how that pans out.

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Originally Posted by JosiahGrey

Well, basically, that would be me. I've chosen to not play until Wednesday after the big server "fix". We'll see how that pans out.

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So your 'moral high ground' means you suffer more than anyone who is actually fighting for better service. What else do your morals get you? Basically what I'm saying is, who cares other than you? Nobody. It's a nice thought that you think you're 'doing the right thing' but it's by you and only for you. I'm not saying be a dick to everyone because 'nice guys finish last', I'm saying your actions are not going to impact anyone else but you in this case. So long as the majority of players are doing the LOGICAL thing and trying to make the most of their purchase in this way... the small handful of players choosing to be 'nice' (in their own heads, of course) will have no visible effect on our problems.

I mean, whatever helps you sleep at night... but nobody is going to thank you for it because you didn't actually DO anything... I could logically go and thank all of my friends for not even owning the game because it means they are a few less people I have to basically fight to get a slot on the server. They didn't do anything either, does it really make a difference if your act of doing nothing is backed by high morals and theirs isnt? The answer is no, thats called being naive.

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Originally Posted by JosiahGrey

This isn't a technical issue. It's a moral issue.

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I agree. Because I'm not a selfish person, I log out. I don't believe that an issue with a non-included feature in this game becomes an SE problem. It's up to the community not to take the mickey.

It's like a glitch. Use it if you're a cheat, don't if you're not.

Not a glitch. A bad decision.

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Originally Posted by Rurushan

What else do your morals get you?

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Not trying to be a smartass here, but to answer your question...

This generation makes decisions based upon only two considerations: what we want, and what we can get away with. This is not a moral decision matrix; it is amoral by definition. Morality is based upon the idea of right and wrong as absolutes. "What's in it for me", to paraphrase your above question? I avoid the penalties inherent to living an amoral life. Most of you will not understand that. Some of you will.

You are simply rationalizing amoral behavior. There's really no need to do that. Amoral behavior doesn't require an apology. Just do what you want to do and screw everyone else. I logged out of the game on Friday with the full realization that I would probably not be able to get back in until after the big server "fix". But I'm not an apologist for Square Enix. Whatever else you may think, please don't think that.

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Originally Posted by JosiahGrey

Not trying to be a smartass here, but to answer your question...

This generation makes decisions based upon only two considerations: what we want, and what we can get away with. This is not a moral decision matrix; it is amoral by definition. Morality is based upon the idea of right and wrong as absolutes. "What's in it for me", to paraphrase your above question? I avoid the penalties inherent to living an amoral life. Most of you will not understand that. Some of you will.

You are simply rationalizing amoral behavior. There's really no need to do that. Amoral behavior doesn't require an apology. Just do what you want to do and screw everyone else. I logged out of the game on Friday with the full realization that I would probably not be able to get back in until after the big server "fix". But I'm not an apologist for Square Enix. Whatever else you may think, please don't think that.

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thats like saying PK (player kills) should be taken out of games that have it cause it kills the fun... some games focus around PK.. i dont play them cause i dont enjoy them and not all games are equipped like wow with non-pvp servers. So if i chose to log in earlier in the day when i can get on instantly compared to later in the day and wait up to 3 hours ill log in earlier... NOTE: I AM A PAYING CUSTOMER. if SE is the reason I can't play cause they were too cheap to start with enough servers that's there fault not mine... Flame elsewhere

I don't really even feel I need an arbitrarily 'absolute' definition of what's right and wrong (ie: 'morality') to decide what to do in this situation. I think of it very simply: how would I feel if someone else did <action> to me? I would personally appreciate it if people would log out when they're done playing so that someone else (like myself) can have a chance. Therefore, I log out, hopefully to let someone else have a go at the game. No, it doesn't really get me anywhere (especially since there are so many who do not share this opinion), but not only do I not want to trash my laptop leaving it running the game for that many hours, but I would personally feel terrible leaving myself logged in, thinking about some poor sap that could be playing in my place. Yes, SE has made a pretty questionable decision (imo) not having an AFK kicker. I'm not going to use that as a justification for selfish behavior. SE is not forcing me to do anything.

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Originally Posted by JosiahGrey

Not trying to be a smartass here, but to answer your question...

This generation makes decisions based upon only two considerations: what we want, and what we can get away with. This is not a moral decision matrix; it is amoral by definition. Morality is based upon the idea of right and wrong as absolutes. "What's in it for me", to paraphrase your above question? I avoid the penalties inherent to living an amoral life. Most of you will not understand that. Some of you will.

You are simply rationalizing amoral behavior. There's really no need to do that. Amoral behavior doesn't require an apology. Just do what you want to do and screw everyone else. I logged out of the game on Friday with the full realization that I would probably not be able to get back in until after the big server "fix". But I'm not an apologist for Square Enix. Whatever else you may think, please don't think that.

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What penalties, then? There are none. Nobody is going to care whether you specifically are AFKing on the server or not. Your 'penalties' are self-imposed or implied. If you have religious beliefs that imply that you are judged in the afterlife, thats fine and it's not my place to argue with you on such points, but again... you aren't 'screwing' anybody by AFKing. The one screwing US is SquareEnix. The reason why servers are full and why players have to force their way into the game is because of design choices and poor decisions made by them. You're still making the assumption that players not AFKing on servers is opening up slots for people who want to play. It's not. Even if there was an AFK kick timer or if everyone who AFKs all stopped for whatever reason, there would still be error 1017s all over the place until we get a proper login queue to sit in.

Ah. I'm learning things now. I assumed they are all connected. So I could stay logged in and it would have no impact on the logging in at all? I suppose I should read up more before attempting to start up acts of sedition.

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Originally Posted by Zoozo

Ah. I'm learning things now. I assumed they are all connected. So I could stay logged in and it would have no impact on the logging in at all? I suppose I should read up more before attempting to start up acts of sedition.

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Not entirely true. What I meant was that there are just so many people trying to get onto the small handful of servers that even if all inactive players were kicked, the servers would still be at capacity with active players. An AFK kick timer is only half of the solution, the other half is a true login queue that can accomodate for all other players trying to get in (thousands or more). Having a queue means you don't have to actively be at the character login screen over and over trying to get in for 10 minutes, 30 minutes, and hour, whatever. You can enter the queue, then go and do something else while you wait, your time is not wasted. The queue would be REALLY slow though without an AFK kick timer booting out inactive players to make room for active ones. The AFK kick timer is useless on its own since the load will still be enough to have lots of players waiting to get into a server that is at capacity with active players. So we need both of these things.. not just one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Rurushan

What penalties, then? There are none.

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I'll answer this question since it was asked civilly, although it is way off topic to anything to do with SE or this game.

The penalties incurred by amoral behavior in this lifetime (I'm not referring to an "afterlife" or literal judgment) are the effects it has on our relationships with the people around us. It's why marriages fail and families become dysfunctional. It's why your last girlfriend left you (I'm using that rhetorically, not pointing a finger at you specifically). Selfishness and greed become spiritually debilitating when indulged over time.

Now, on a moral scale of one to ten, with "one" being driving five miles an hour over the posted speed limit and "ten" being the mass murder of innocents, failing to log out of an online game after you have finished playing it is, oh, I don't know, probably around a zero-point-eight. So I don't think I'm overstating my case. Yes, it's fairly trivial in terms of the moral absolute.

Be that as it may, it's still pissing me off...

Completely agree. Both are needed. I Can gladly deal with a long queue if I know that ppl are getting booted. It's really a no brainer. I like the game, But it is full of things that they decided to change for change sake, that no only don't make the game better, but in most cases, are just tedious. Like the extra step of picking the item to hand over in quest objectives. And the excuse for it was almost insulting.

Yoshi P already said they were discussing an AFK system at PAX.

Highly suggest before you post something, you read stuff first. All you have to do is google "Yoshi P Pax" and articles come up about it.

Well I've looked at a couple of things that showed he was discussing it or thinking about it, neither of which I find acceptable. I feeling I've gotten from those statements and from the fact that it's not listed as one of the things being done tonight, is that he doesn't think it is important. If he thought it would help, he'd be doing it. And maybe I'm wrong. Me and everyone else. Just makes more sense to me than adding more servers that are going to get filled up right away as soon as they start selling again. We'll see tomorrow morning.