Question from a healer

This isn't a "omg tanks do yer jerb!" Post I just like to know how tanks work in a new mmo before I say "this guy is a bad tank" lol. So I just have a few questions that maybe you tanks could answer for me.

Does anyone know if their is a threat ratio? In a previous MMO I played 1 damage = 1 threat.

How many threat abilities do you have including ST, AE, and Taunts. I only ask because I notice sometimes in dungeons tanks can't pick up adds off of DPS easily. Or is their simply a threat issue at the moment? I very rarely pull threat off a tank but if an add pops behind me sometimes its hard to shake him even after bringing him to the tank.

Again not trying to flame tanks just trying to educate myself a bit. please feel free to give me, as a healer, some advice if you think it would help in the tank healer relationship of the game.

I just started as a tank in this game so probably better tanks can give better answers.

I rarely lose aggro to anyone, provided the healer does not start healing and the DPS do not AoE like crazy just after the pull. Usually if everything goes well, in 3-4 sec I have everything on me and it holds till the end of the fight. If a DPS steals a mob from me, just a Provoke + ShieldLob/Tomahawk and baby's back to me. I think it's important (at least if you see your tank is having some issues) to give the tank just a few seconds to build aggro on all mobs. DPS attacking the same target as the tank helps too. I would not say there is any threat issue at the moment, but again, I'm pretty low level.

Advice: nothing helps you understanding a role more than playing it. Try & roll a tank, even just until level 17 so that you can go into some dungeons. It'll give you much more insight on the mechanics, and you could improve a lot in your current role after that.

In reality threat isn't that hard to generate. To me the problem is 2 fold. First part is tanks aren't tab targeting. I think that would seriously solve half the issues tanks are having. The other part is on the DPS. A lot of them think, or at least it seems they think, when the mob moves the tank has threat in it. Not the case. They see a mob move and just start pouring on the deeps. This can be prevented by marking the kill order and DPS not being dumb. This game isn't all that different from the way other MMOs are/were. People need to stop playing like they have never played an MMO before.

As far as moves, I can only speak for a Paladin but at lvl 35 the only AoE move I have is Flash (lol) and it's bad. I have 1 taunt on a 45 second CD. I have some pretty solid ST threat generation and it will go up even more at 40 when I get Shield Oath. From what I gather Paladin threat with Shield Oath is a lot better.

I can only tell up till level 25 on both maruader and galadiator.

Maruader:
Overpower (lvl12) = Frontal cone Aoe with damage + threat. no cooldown
Skull Thunder (lvl4) = Single Target Damage + High Threat. no cooldown
Tomahawk (lvl15, quested) = Single Target Damage + Threat ranged attack.

Gladiator:
Savage Blade (lvl4) = Single Target Damage + High Threat. no cooldown
Flash (lvl8) = Point blank (from player) AoE Threat, without damage. (Adds blind at level 20) no cooldown
Shield lob (lvl15, quested) = Single Target Damage + Threat ranged attack.
Provoke (lvl22) = Puts you on the top of hate list. Does not work if you already at top threat. 40 sec cooldown

Maruaders can use flash if you already learned it on your gladiator. Hence they can use both flash and overpower. Same goes with provoke.

P.S. Looks like many people replied before me. Posting just to list the skills they have available.

I'm a Warrior and I have a macro that puts a "1" over the head of whoever I use tomahawk on. I usually then use overpower, followed by flash, and begin my single target rotation.

However, if the healer uses a bunch of high powered heals or if the dps attacks one of the adds I don't have marked, it is very possible to lose aggro. They I have to flash or tomahawk to try and grab aggro quickly again.

Overall, it's not too hard to keep threat. Even at level 35. The only time I run into any issue is with multiple targets. And even that is rare if everyone knows what they're doing.

Every skill has its own threat multiplier, also affected by combos and by the PLD/WAR tank buffs. Read here:

http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=231

As noted above, the only true taunt is Provoke, which GLD gets at 22 and MRD/WAR can cross-class. I haven't picked it up yet on my 36 WAR, and I haven't really missed it that much. I mark the first mob, and if I lose threat at all, it's usually to early-AOEing DDs. 1) Screw those guys, and 2) I can usually get it back in a few GCDs anyway. But yes, if your tank does lose threat, taunting it back is not necessarily an option, and not necessarily going to last, because it puts them at highest threat +1, and another stupid AOE can undo that pretty quick.

Maybe I have had some new or just bad tanks so far haha. Occasionally I get a group with a tank who marks targets pretty rapidly and holds threat. It definitely helps.

Its pretty easy to say, " as long as everyone knows what they're doing." Haha. Better than average pugs are a welcome change lol.

A lot of useful information here. I have been healing for about 4 years now. I always send my first tank heal out once they take about 200ish damage to avoid over healing at this point in the game. I do notice archers just ripping threat from tanks and then kiting the mob around like a fool. I hope even dome DPS dip into this thread and forum to see how tanks work.

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Originally Posted by DarkSeifer

I'm a Warrior and I have a macro that puts a "1" over the head of whoever I use tomahawk on. I usually then use overpower, followed by flash, and begin my single target rotation.

However, if the healer uses a bunch of high powered heals or if the dps attacks one of the adds I don't have marked, it is very possible to lose aggro. They I have to flash or tomahawk to try and grab aggro quickly again.

Overall, it's not too hard to keep threat. Even at level 35. The only time I run into any issue is with multiple targets. And even that is rare if everyone knows what they're doing.

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You're only marking one target? That's horrible.

Mark at least three. I have a vertical hotbar with all 5 numbers and I assigned it to SHIFT+1 through SHIFT+5.

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Originally Posted by CubemonkeyNYC

You're only marking one target? That's horrible.

Mark at least three. I have a vertical hotbar with all 5 numbers and I assigned it to SHIFT+1 through SHIFT+5.

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Marking shouldn't be necessary except for when a specific target needs to be downed. Dps should learn how to /assist instead. Would also help if they didn't start attacking the exact second you do, especially with multi mob pulls. Let the tank have like 5 seconds(since that global cd is so long)before you start your wtfpwn dps :) I can't stand blm's that just start aoe the second I throw my shield and wonder why they are getting beat on. I've only had one blm so far that would sleep a target. I love that flash doesn't wake them up either.

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Originally Posted by CubemonkeyNYC

You're only marking one target? That's horrible.

Mark at least three. I have a vertical hotbar with all 5 numbers and I assigned it to SHIFT+1 through SHIFT+5.

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I play on PS3 and find it difficult to mark multiple mobs. Maybe there is some macro I can use or some secret I dunno. What I do is have shield lob macro with target 1 attached to it. When the mob has 1/3 life I switch my target. And use the macro again. This way as soon as DPS finish off the first one I already have the next marked with a bunch of threat. The last mob doesn't get marked. It's not horrible and I can easily make it work.

For the OP. I am glade you're interested in learning how tanks work, it will only make you a better player. As a GLD you should have no issue holding two mobs, providing you get 3sec at the beginning of the fight to get some threat going. Three to four mobs gets a bit tricky, depending on who you got as the rest of your team, but shouldn't be an issue.

This is what I do, it's not the the only way or the best way, but it works.

Typical 3 mob pull.

Shield lob
Flash
Fast blade
Switch target savage blade
(After level 26) switch target RoH
Flash
Back to target one using what ever combo I need. Switching to other mobs to see the threat meter. If its low or on someone else I use SB or RoH on it.
When the first target is almost dead I use my shield lob macro and continue.

Use flash when it's needed. And if you lose threat, provoke, flash combo on him. If needed shield lob

First off, the biggest thing I can recommend is to give tanking a try. I feel that everyone should level a tank, healer, and DPS class for the sake of knowing what those classes are and are not capable of.

To answer your question though, tanks DO have a number of enmity generating abilities, but when a mob runs off after a DD, especially a ranged DD, getting hate back can be a problem. They can't just stop what they're doing on all the other mobs to chase the monster around. However, the only ranged enmity generation a tank has both have their problems: Provoke only puts you slightly higher on the hate list than the DD, meaning it'll be back to chasing him if he does anything on it before you do, and it has a whopping 40 second recast. Shield Lob/Tomahawk cost around double the TP of any other attack, and require that the level 15 class quest be done. That's not a humongous requirement, but it does mean tanks who've just hit 15 and can join dungeons now may not realize they should pause to do their quest first, and quite a lot of legacy players may not be aware that there's a point to doing class quests besides xp and gil.

Due to the above issues, the most effective solution to getting hate back on the tank is actually something the DD can do: Drag the monster over to the tank. Then he can easily use flash, overpower, or tab over to it and use a combo to get hate back. If the DD is running around in the mistaken belief that it makes him dodge attacks more (It doesn't, it really really doesn't), the makes the monster quite difficult to hit with melee if chased down, and depending on positioning and number of monsters can make targeting it for a ranged attack more difficult.

In an ideal world, the tank wouldn't lose hate in the first place, but stuff happens. Sometimes the tank is new and needs encouragement, rather than being yelled at. Sometimes, it's a case of overzealous DDs who don't attack the tank's target, or who start AoEing everything right at the start of a pull. When this happens, it's the job of both the tank and the person who pulled hate to get it back where it belongs.

Of course, sometimes you get the tanks who don't know what they're doing and can't listen to advice. You can yell at them.

I should of clarified that I have tanked in several games and I feel that has made me a better healer now. I just saw a pattern of tanks not doing to great so I for myself wanted to find out of there were any issues before I started talking crap haha. I probably will wind up leveling a tank at some point but its no longer my play style.

All great info and advice so far. Glad to see the tank community is willing to learn and teach others. I think if more people browsed the forums during server downtimes instead of spamming the login we would all be a little more knowledgeable in game lol.

The truth of it all is in the link provided earlier. Even with a .6 modifier, an add that pops in the middle of a fight can be very difficult to control. If you as a healer happen to pop a medica2 and crit for 1500+ on an entire party or raid it is quite possible that a tank cannot even generate enough enmity within the mobs lifetime to get it back. An overzealous dps can easily end up tanking with a few lucky crits or if they jump on a mob as soon as it spawns as it takes a tank 7.5 seconds (possibly less if they have tons of skill speed gear) to do a full combo rotation, which usually works out to be only slightly more threat than a single rotation of a good dps.

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Originally Posted by CubemonkeyNYC

You're only marking one target? That's horrible.

Mark at least three. I have a vertical hotbar with all 5 numbers and I assigned it to SHIFT+1 through SHIFT+5.

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Do you really need to mark more then 1 target? The only reason to mark is if things need to die in an order. I do the same and only mark a 1 since that's what I want my dps to focus on at the start. past 10 seconds into the fight they could all pick a seperate mob and I wouldn't care.

To each his own but you do not "need" to mark anything more then a 1. More then that is just your preference because you would rather be lazy and focus 1 target. Wait till you get to the higher levels and your dps all have aoe's and multi dotting ...

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Originally Posted by Myric

Marking shouldn't be necessary except for when a specific target needs to be downed. Dps should learn how to /assist instead. Would also help if they didn't start attacking the exact second you do, especially with multi mob pulls. Let the tank have like 5 seconds(since that global cd is so long)before you start your wtfpwn dps :) I can't stand blm's that just start aoe the second I throw my shield and wonder why they are getting beat on. I've only had one blm so far that would sleep a target. I love that flash doesn't wake them up either.

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You go tell the SWARM of dps guys to learn use /assist. xD nevertheless, i would LOVE them doing so, but as long as they play with the brain set to OFF, i'd rather mark every target and spare me some headaches

Regardless, what people seems to not understand with the "UUH I MARK ONLY ONE MOB CUZ THEN I HAVE THREAT ON EVERYTHING", it's not even about that, it's more of a polished execution which also makes the clear incredibly faster and smooth. Dunno, maybe i'm ocd about being a tank lol

It takes like 3seconds to mark 3mobs. I don't see it being much different then marking 1 at a time, time wise. But i think where getting off topic.

Tanks lose aggro because of bad tanks, DPS, and healers.

In a recent dungeon, DPS attacked different targets even after I asked them to attack my first target and marked it. I adapted by holding aggro on 2 out of 3 enemies. I could have held all aggro if DPS were more skilled.

I mark a target if there are adds or confusion about which enemy to attack. (Using a shield lob + mark macro may be a good idea if the group has trouble coordinating.) Marking isn't necessary when DPS attack the tank's first target and assist the tank working through enemies weakest to strongest. Healers can help with aggro by waiting a bit on the first heal (to let the tank establish general aggro) and using the appropriate level of heal (to not generate unnecessary threat).

Tips
- Monitor enemy threat indicators. Ease off to avoid aggro.
- The long GCD requires coordination to avoid aggro. It may take a few seconds for the tank to complete threat skills to reclaim aggro.

For later on, try not to cast Regen on the tank before or during a pull. It works strangely in this game in that every tick of Regen generates enmity towards the WHM, so if a tank uses a ranged attack to pull a bunch of mobs you'll notice them all immediately lose interest and head your way.

Once the tank has used Flash or similar AoE ability it's fine.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

For later on, try not to cast Regen on the tank before or during a pull. It works strangely in this game in that every tick of Regen generates enmity towards the WHM, so if a tank uses a ranged attack to pull a bunch of mobs you'll notice them all immediately lose interest and head your way.

Once the tank has used Flash or similar AoE ability it's fine.

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Seconding this so much. Try to avoid using Regen on the tank toward the end of the fight. If they run into the next group of enemies, factoring in some shock factor and lag, the enemies AoE enmity will not snag the enemies in time and they'll be on you.