Holy crap! <Late Main Quest Spoilers>

Thancred! You bastard!

I knew I always wanted to punch you in your smug face. Now I know why!

Kudos, SE. Totally didn't see that coming.

Not so fast, now... It's not quite what it looks like.

I'm actually still trying to work out what's up with it. I've only given it the one viewing so far, so this is very raw and perhaps you guys can help me work through it. At the End of an Era, we clearly see Thancred praying while Lahabrea is marveling at Bahamut from atop the cliffs ... and he looks identical to Thancrascian - why? If "red mask" is what Thancred looks like when an Ascian has anchored to him with a Dark Crystal, why do we see an identical form before and after this incarnation of his physical presence? Or are we just to assume that Lahabrea on the cliffs and Lahabrea at Ascians Anonymous were other, similar looking hyur?

What implications does this have for the Ascians we saw in Version 1.0? We can safely assume that Travanchet was an elezen that was Dark Crystal'd ... but what of the Reaper we saw in Thanalan? Is this their natural, wispy form? Why not show Lahabrea like this before and after Thancred to really big up the "RED MASK WAS THANCRED ALL ALONG" vibe? Or show another hyur donning the red mask and raising the hood around the other Overlords?

Development constraints, maybe?

Speaking of 1.0 ... what if the red mask we saw at the Battle of Cartenau... was Warburton?

All in all, though, I'm getting pretty into it and I think SE did a fantastic job. That last dungeon and its cutscenes were like one giant love letter from a side of Final Fantasy we haven't seen in a long time.

*Spoiler to your spoiler*

Its just an exorcist. Not the real Thancred.

>< I never once believed it and I was redeemed at the end.

I wanted to post something lore-related to the story but I didn't remember what it was--this totally jogged my memory because I wanted to talk about Ascians, so thanks! :D

This contains spoilers for the main story's conclusion, so I'm gonna put the rest of this under a spoiler tag:

...So how do these new versions of the Ascians work?

Something I've noticed about the Ascians we have in ARR is that they're nothing like the pure one we saw in the 1.0 Path of the Twelve quest:

http://i.imgur.com/b2kJ8.png

Instead, we get...actual people-looking Ascians, including Thancred/Lahabrea. But you realize later that it's really not Thancred at all; Minfilia explains later that the Ascians are more or less hosts on hopeless souls or something to that effect. I don't 100% remember entirely how the whole contract thing goes if there is a contract at all between man and Ascian now.(though i'm pretty sure there was a contract kind of thing in 1.0); I think now they can just find host bodies of those really downtrodden/hopeless people and use them because of the devastation caused by the Calamity. Maybe they're just not powerful enough in their pure form and are better off possessing people?

My theory on the whole "Calamity Lahabrea vs. Thancred Lahabrea" is that whatever bodies those Ascians were using in the Calamity were destroyed by the Megaflare. They weren't protected by anything at all; it's likely those bodies were destroyed and the Ascians free to look for their next victim--Lahabrea's being Thancred at his lowest point. I'm temped to see if he was possessed sometime during the story and if we can tell by his shadow or lack thereof, if the "no shadow" quality of the Ascians still exists. (I think someone debunked that earlier on in beta 3 but it might be good to re-check.) Would like to hear more on the Warburton theory, though. :P

I'm wondering too if those "pure" Ascians still exist or if they just feed off of host bodies now. Even at the very end post-credits cutscene, there are none of the skeleton-looking ones; they're all people. Whether they were born as a person-Ascian or they're all possessed/made a contract is also something I'd really like to know...

I probably forgot something but i'll edit this later if i remember. :D

Has anyone else noticed that the Ascians are named after the Scions of Light from FFXII? Lahabrea is the Scion opposing Mateus. Pashtarot, Igeyorhm, and Nabriales oppose Zeromus, Shemhazai, and Cuchulainn.

I highly doubt Thancred’s possession took place during the Bahamut incident or beforehand: based on how I’ve analyzed the story, there’s a pretty good indication of exactly when it happens. Incoming long post!

First of all, a bit on what Minfilia stated about how the Ascian binding works:

Minfilia: Mayhap you know this already, but the Ascians are immortal beings without physical form. Since time immemorial, they have fanned the flames of chaos from the shadows. That they might work unseen, the Ascians entrap and possess mortal men by means of malign artifacts known as Crystals of Darkness. [One such Crystal may yet be the key to saving Thancred].

So, going by that, and what we see in the ending, we know this Crystal of Darkness was in the form of a necklace around Thancred’s neck. We see it shatter inside of the Echo where the player meets with Hydaelyn. The question is: when exactly did that necklace binding appear? We’ll analyze the timeline.

Beginning of the story, including the “New Beginning” fmv, Thancred is his usual suave, swagger-walking self, chipper and full of himself. You continue to see his “normal” behavior during the Drybone leg of missions up to Ifrit. Ifrit’s incident however, is more or less the catalyst.

His failure to arrive in time to assist the player, leading to the decision to terminate the lives of all the people, allies and traitors alike, who were touched by Ifrit, weighed heavily on his mind. Coupled with the fact that he and the other Archons were still reeling by the loss of Louisoix, it placed Thancred in a position to want to over-achieve. From here, his personality makes its decline.

If the player walks around in the Waking Sands after the Ifrit fight, he is sitting on a couple of boxes, and makes a comment about how he has to become better with his knives to match the player’s skill. There is also, of course, the conversation he has with Minfilia before the player walks into the room, with feelings of guilt over the situation. Also, when he walks out of the room, he says “If only Louisoix were here.”

Further evidence of his decline in personality is the conversation with the Scions in the quest “The Black Wolf’s Ultimatum”, which takes place right after they escape Castrum Centri.

Minfilia: Even for an Archon, Thancred’s talents are exceptional. We all had complete confidence in him. It was for this reason that none among us foresaw the danger in sending him to investigate the Ascians alone.
Papalymo: Thancred had been striving to fill the void left by Louisoix. Yet it was plain that he was overtaxing himself.
Yda: Yeah…He would volunteer for everything and work till he was dizzy.
Alphinaud: And the toll taken by his exertions made him vulnerable to Ascian influence…

So we know from the quest “Escape from Castrum Centri”, that it was Alphinaud who suggested Thancred investigate the Ascians. When exactly then, did he take off for the mission? Right when the player heads to investigate the Sylphs and a possible threat of Ramuh summoning.

If the player returns to the Waking Sands, Thancred is nowhere to be found. Y’shtola, and Urianger are in the storage room, as are several other Scions. Yda and Papalymo, of course, are assisting the player with the quests in the Shroud.

So when exactly does Thancred return from his mission? Right in the middle of the Sylphs quests (I currently have "First Contact" flagged on this character). All is seemingly well, as Thancred even suggests that the player not head to Limsa Lominsa to defeat Titan without Y’shtola. But if you look closely at his neck..

http://31.media.tumblr.com/9efd61160...8hmo1_1280.png

Ding ding. He’s already been tampered with. To what extent, I’m not sure, but as of this point in the story, he still seems to be in his own senses. If the player returns to the Waking Sands, he can be found standing just outside of Minfilia's office, where he mentions he will be conducting his own investigations while the player is out in the Shroud. A few quests later, he is sitting in some chairs near the exit to Vesper Bay. He’s hunched over, with an obvious air of trouble around him. He comments something along the lines of “Oh? It’s nothing…I’m just reflecting on recent developments.”

http://31.media.tumblr.com/5401f337c...8hmo5_1280.jpg

By the time you return from your victory against Titan, all hell at the Waking Sands has broken loose. Thancred is nowhere to be seen, but it doesn’t immediately concern the remaining Scions who weren’t taken captive. In fact, Thancred’s name doesn’t even come up until Papalymo asks the player about him as they’re breaking out of Castrum Centri.

Some questions:

When is Thancred, Thancred, and when is he Lahabrea?

This is where it gets tricky, but my strong intuition tells me the possession didn’t happen right away. Whether it’s a technical resource thing on SE’s part or intentional, I don’t know, but I got to studying the Lahabrea model closely after watching the ending to see if I could figure this out. The facial structure of Lahabrea’s chin does not match that of Thancred, for one. The masked one has a wider, rounder jaw, while Than’s is smoother and a bit pointier.

The first time we see the red-masked Lahabrea is in Toto-Rak, where he gives his name as such, and we hear his voice, which is distinctly different from Thancred’s. Immediately after Toto-Rak, we see normally clothed Thancred in the Waking Sands, wearing the necklace. His voice is the same voice we’ve been hearing since “Under the Sultantree”.

Lahabrea’s next appearance is at the Stone Vigil, when he rouses the dragon from his slumber to pester you. This is well after the raid on the Waking Sands, but the model is still the wide-chinned red-masked Lahabrea.
We don’t see Lahabrea or Thancred again until Castrum Centri, where he pulls off his hood. From there, we see a fully possessed Thanbrea, complete with Lahabrea’s masked-voice.

But this also brings up the question: if my theory is wrong, and if the possession took place immediately, why is it then, that Thancred would willingly suggest Y’shtola accompany the player to Titan’s lair, instead of summoning Livia and the horde of Garleans to raid the place, knowing that the player is there? The purpose of Livia’s raid was to capture the player, after all.

And if he was still himself when he suggested Y’shtola go with the player to Titan, how is it that he does NOT know about the crystal around his very neck? Did he willingly make a pact with the Ascians? Some kind of plea bargain, or perhaps, he tried to take on something he could not handle on his own? Speculate away!

Thanks for checking the cutscenes for the necklace! That was on my to-do list, but I've been distracted ><

The question I have is less when he was taken and more why Lahabrea-as-Thancred looks pretty much exactly the same as Lahabrea-not-as-Thancred. I think we're supposed to assume that Lahabrea habitually Dark Crystals male hyurs and that the mask, hood, and robe cover most of the defining features of whoever he's presently wearing, thus making it easy for players to identify him in cutscenes and easy for the Development Teams to toss in a twist like, "IT WAS THANCRED THIS TIME! OH MAN!" anytime they want to without sculpting a new model.

I'm just a little wary of how this might play out in the future. Thancred was a good guy, Thancred was missing, Thancred was possessed, Thancred was a good guy again - and all the while, Lahabrea was the same guy wearing different meat suits. There's not really a shift in the status quo, there's just a moment of shock value. I can't tell if this was their way of working into the story how the dark crystal mechanic works, which would be a masterful touch, or whether this is going to be a constant future story mechanic, which would get cheap fast. With something that has the potential for substantially diminishing returns, I figure feedback is important is all.

I'm also curious as to if anything with the ascians has changed. Shadows are a little tough to see at times, in game, and I honestly don't recall if Lahabrea-as-Thancred or any of the robed ascians had shadows, does anybody have conclusive shots? Moreover, I've yet to see the reaper form ascian at all. I had assumed that this was their true form.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Thanks for checking the cutscenes for the necklace! That was on my to-do list, but I've been distracted ><

stuffs

---

I agree, it's quite confusing not knowing if it was technical ease on SE's part to just throw the same model around for Lahabrea. I also got to studying the "Masked Mage" model that appears in the level 15 quest: its pretty much identical except for the bling on the robe and the different colored mask. When you defeat him, your character sees a dark crystal shatter (but unknown what happens to the body really).

I'm currently going through all the cutscenes again and examining shadows. I'll report back with my findings!

Since they do possess bodies to exist in the mortal world (loosely remember what Minfilia said), I wouldn't be surprised if Lahabrea would jump back and forth between bodies depending on when he was needed. Whichever host was closer depending on what what he wanted do. For example, when he needed to go to Titan's lair, or wanted to hitch a ride on a Juggernaut.

I guess the clothes don't go with him though. Imagine waking up with a hangover after being possessed and you're stuck in evil looking robes and a sore throat.

Welp, I've been up too long, time to sleep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jacien

Since they do possess bodies to exist in the mortal world (loosely remember what Minfilia said), I wouldn't be surprised if Lahabrea would jump back and forth between bodies depending on when he was needed. Whichever host was closer depending on what what he wanted do.

---

Hm, I'm not sure. Given the shown Ascian ability to teleport in and out at will regardless of their host body, I can't get on board with it being due simply to "convenience".

My thoughts are that Lahabrea possessed Thancred for two reasons:

1) to glean information related to the Scions of the Seventh Dawn (i.e. the location of The Waking Sands, from which he then ported Livia & Co. in for Stabby Time™), and

2) to twist the knife during the big reveal, as evidenced by Minfilia's outcry (and probably a few of our own). From a storytelling perspective, it's obvious the writers wanted to really drive home the notion that nothing was safe; our own companions could be ripped from our hands, corrupted, and used against us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Obsy

2) to twist the knife during the big reveal, as evidenced by Minfilia's outcry (and probably a few of our own). From a storytelling perspective, it's obvious the writers wanted to really drive home the notion that nothing was safe; our own companions could be ripped from our hands, corrupted, and used against us.

---

I'm actually REALLY glad they did this. In 1.0, the Circle of Knowing seemed almost invincible..like they were these untouchable bad-asses that could never fall. Now in 2.0, they run the same risks we do...Thancred, in a moment of weakness, ended up "taken" by the enemy. And then of course there's the fact the rest were taken captive by the Garleans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Than_Ambresin

why is it then, that Thancred would willingly suggest Y’shtola accompany the player to Titan’s lair...

---

My thoughts on this are that Thancred might have somehow been too far gone to explain 'crap I've been enthralled' but not enthralled enough by that point in the story to purposefully protect both the adventurer and Y'shtola (a healer who had the most knowledge of LL/Titan) from harm. Especially since 'Livia wasn't aiming to kill the Milifina...at least not right away. Maybe he still had enough of him inside to protect the Scions.

Another reason could just be that the timing (not yours) are off. Thanbrea wasn't yet assisting Livia at the time you left, so there was no reason to try to hold you or Y'shtola at the sands.

This was my thought as well when I did the research. From the timeline, barring any "behind the scenes" actions that we didn't witness, Than seems to be completely overtaken by the time of Livia's attack. But, what troubles me is the fact he is wearing the necklace much much earlier. If this was some kind of "homing device" Lahabrea used to keep tabs on Than (and later use to teleport into the Waking Sands), how did Than not notice what he was wearing? He had to have known he had it. Maybe he bit off more than he could chew?

The Garleans and Lahabrea have been wanting to kill the player since the start, so even if Than was slightly overtaken by then, he would not have let the adventurer out of his sight..or would have warned him he was about to be overcome by the darkness. It is also strange that someone with a high intuition like Y'shtola didn't sense a thing o_O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vilhem

/snip

---

You never know he could have found it lying around and lahabrea dropped it to some extent. He saw it as a good equip because it makes him look better to the ladies and BAM instant possession. Remember he was quite a player to the women. Second of all I doubt he even really knew that he was being possessed. Oh he may have had some inkling, (then again we don't entirely know due to the fact he's upset that it happened but it doesn't mention if he remembers it or not) Also for the fact of the clothes Lahabrea could have just made him change it before letting go of possession as to not give him a clue about it.

It wasn't just that Lahabrea was wanting information on the Scions. He was also getting extremely interested in the adventurer who "bested Ifrit" and was wanting to get rid of him and or use him in his plans.

But that's all just my thoughts ^_^

First of all, I apologize in advance for the necro-posting, but this is a really interesting thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Than_Ambresin

So, going by that, and what we see in the ending, we know this Crystal of Darkness was in the form of a necklace around Thancred’s neck. We see it shatter inside of the Echo where the player meets with Hydaelyn. The question is: when exactly did that necklace binding appear? We’ll analyze the timeline.

---

Since I'm right in the middle of these quests right now on an alt, I can tell you that immediately after taking the quest to go see the Sylphs from Minfilia, you can walk outside of the Solar and talk to Thancred who will just be standing there, and he will already have the dark crystal necklace. I don't actually know whether it's a bug that he has it this early given the fact that in the cutscene where you get the Sylph quest, he's there and not wearing it, but either way, that's the earliest that I've spotted him wearing it.

Quote:

---

So we know from the quest “Escape from Castrum Centri”, that it was Alphinaud who suggested Thancred investigate the Ascians. When exactly then, did he take off for the mission? Right when the player heads to investigate the Sylphs and a possible threat of Ramuh summoning.

---

When you're reporting the Sylph quests to Minfilia, everyone is there in the office except for Thancred who, both before and after you report it, is sitting near the entrance to Waking Sands on a stool, again wearing the necklace. Before you actually walk in during that cutscene though, Alphinaud is there talking with Minfilia, and among other things they discuss an unnamed matter which they are having Thancred investigate, and the way Alphinaud is talking it seems like Thancred just gave him an update. There's almost no doubt that this is the Ascian investigation.

Quote:

---

If the player returns to the Waking Sands, Thancred is nowhere to be found. Y’shtola, and Urianger are in the storage room, as are several other Scions. Yda and Papalymo, of course, are assisting the player with the quests in the Shroud.

---

I don't know about if you return during the Sylph quests, but as mentioned above, right after you get the Sylph quests, you can already find him wearing the necklace, whether this is a mistake or not.

Quote:

---

But this also brings up the question: if my theory is wrong, and if the possession took place immediately, why is it then, that Thancred would willingly suggest Y’shtola accompany the player to Titan’s lair, instead of summoning Livia and the horde of Garleans to raid the place, knowing that the player is there? The purpose of Livia’s raid was to capture the player, after all.

---

I think Thancred was himself when he said that, but assuming for a moment that he wasn't, it could simply be Lahabrea playing a game of divide and conquer, especially since he probably would have known that Yda had also remained in Gridania. For me, this reinforces the notion that Lahabrea only meant to separate us from the Scions, and perhaps even carefully kept the strongest combatants such as Thancred, Yda and Y'shtola away so that the raid would have no chance of failing.

I think your theory is correct, but my personal opinion has always been that Lahabrea's and the Garlean's goals were different. I think Lahabrea was more interested in separating us from the other Scions whereas the Garleans wanted to capture us to study the Echo. Just look at us between the raid and Alphinaud's appearance at the church: we don't know what to do. I think Lahabrea knew we would lose our purpose without the guidance of the Scions.

Quote:

---

And if he was still himself when he suggested Y’shtola go with the player to Titan, how is it that he does NOT know about the crystal around his very neck? Did he willingly make a pact with the Ascians? Some kind of plea bargain, or perhaps, he tried to take on something he could not handle on his own? Speculate away!

---

The necklace is fairly inconspicuous, to be fair, but given what Thancred says after the 2.0 endgame, he was likely well aware of having it and didn't think it posed a danger to him, and thus fell into Lahabrea's trap. The way he says it, he took on more than he could handle without realizing it.