How to generate more hate than a healer?

I have to confess: I am not a GLD by passion - I am forced to be a tank out of necessity.
I have LNC50 and CNJ50 from FFXIV v1.0.
Tanks are in a high demand - can't get a dungeon party as DD for 30+ minutes and getting as GLD in just 30 sec.

My stats as GLD32 are:
HP 1240 MP 389 TP 1000
STR 133
DEX 103
VIT 158
ATTACK 133
SKILL SPEED 200
DEFENSE 224
PARRY 194
CRITICAL HIT RATE 206

I open a fight with Shield Lob and Flash, then Fast blade+Savage blade+Rage of Halone and then repeat the chain against my target. I do use Provoke on my mob.
I can self-heal to some extent using CNJ and PGL healing and evasion skills yet ... I can not generate the hate to keep all the mobs on me!

The healer is targeted by secondary mobs, start kiting and dies. Then I die.
It is not an easy job to be a tank otherwise there would be plenty.
I read a lot about tanking job on the forum, skills and UI layout.

What am I missing?

Appreciate the reading and happy tanking :-)

Mark Target 1 -> Shield Lob Target 1 -> Flash x 2 -> Fast + Savage Marked Target 1 -> Flash -> Rage Target 1 -> Fast + Savage Target 2 -> Rage Target 1 -> Fast + Savage Target 3 -> Rage Target 1 etc.

You really shouldn't use Provoke, it's a pretty worthless skill.

When tanking each time you target a mob you'll see bars on the left side of the screen showing your current hate and everyone else's current hate against that target mob. Start off with a Fast Blade into the secondary Attack which generates incredibly high threat! Use this on all the targets you can, while tossing out a Flash here and there. Dont be shy to blow your DPS CDs at this point as well as Blood Bath from the MAR (level 8 i believe, worth it! Its awesome for tanking, heals you and generates extra threat because of said healing)

Swap targets while remaining locked onto your current target. If you have to mark your current target with a marker so dps know to focus on that one. Hope that helps!

First of all, from what I understand, Provoke works in that it takes whoever has the highest threat on the mob and gives that same amount of threat to you plus one, or something like that. So don't be provoking just to provoke. It doesn't just give you enmity and I assume it does nothing on a target you already have threat on. Provoke an enemy that isn't on you and follow it up with a threat generating move. For example, if a mob is at range on your healer, provoke it and throw a Shield Lob at it.

As for the rest, it sounds like you have the gist of it. I'm only 27 almost 28, but I pull with Shield Lob and flash. Then I try to get a Fast Blade > Savage Blade combo on the main target and then do a Rage of Halone on another target then maybe Flash again.

Two things that can help.

1.) Don't have an idiotic healer. I've seen healers that will do nothing but AoE heal. Bad. I've seen healers that over heal like crazy. All they do is spam heals even when it's not necessary. Bad. Both these types of healers pull more threat than they should be and are stupid.

2.) Use CC. I know CNJ gets Repose. THM has Sleepga. You can use this to CC mobs so that they aren't running all willy nilly. And really, there is no point in tanking multiple enemies if you have CC available unless you're AoEing them.

If you're doing all of the above, then something is wrong. Your gear is broken. Your group is bad. I don't know.

At your level, if you're feeling lazy, you can probably just hit Flash after each Halone rather than comboing the other targets individually.

You basically regenerate full MP running between each trash pull. Don't bother using Flash sparingly.

When there is more than one target and you don't have someone that is hot on the sleeps, you absolutely must rotate tthrough all of them to maintain threat (flash alone will not out threat the healer.)

And yes, switch targets like they've said.

Tab target every now mid threat combo and check threat levels. If the healer is getting kind high, throw a Savage Blade or Rage of Halone on them. That should hold threat for a decent amount of time.

The tanks job is not to worry about damage thats what the DDS are for. I shield lob wait till the mobs are all close to me trigger flash. I do one or 2 combos on a mob then shift to another target and pop a combo or 2 on them. Dont hesitate to throw a shield lob in. The parties I have had have been up to 30 (beta phase 3). It also helps if the mages can sleep some of the extra targets. Oh and by the way that sign over the mobs crap is for the birds. SOP is to attack what the tank is attacking, and youll tell by the hp decrease. I dont mark my targets you should see what im hitting and whack it till its dead..then go to what im hitting. A good tank (such as myself) will realize hey in .05 seconds this mob will die so ill switch to the next target to get a ws in to help lock hate. Thats how its been done since the first umbral era and thats how it should be done today.

Everything that the others said work and its valid so you should follow the advices that works for you.

But I wanted to add my opinion. Which is that I see that maybe there is a problem with the rest of the party in your case. I usually use the same combo with lesser mobs, trash mobs (except Provoke, I don't even use it with trash mobs) and it work just fine. I maintain Hate from every mob and everything run smoothly by just using Flash and focus my attacks on my target.

That's the key in my opinion, MY target or in these case, YOUR target. The way I see it, maybe what happens to you is that the rest of the party use too many AoE, and that way the others mobs lose hate on you and move to the others PC, so first of all you should MARK your target and everyone should focus on that target and if they use some AoE, you should use Flash as many times plus one, its ok to spam it, the mob won't die from your dmg but from the dmg of the DDs, so you focus on generating Hate.

Thank you, everyone :-)

I'll go back and train all the recommendations you gave me.
Or by the way, I just got a PLD sole crystal.
It looks like there are some new skills that help to mitigate the damage.
Do you, guys and gals use them often?

See you later on the forum and in the game!

Tyrzea it's definitely not worth it to equip the PLD soul crystal until after you learn Shield Oath. Because it halves the number of cross-class ability slots you get and you gain nothing of value until then.

As a note it seems like your singular problem is figuring out how to deal with multiple enemies. Easy hints:
Don't forget to use Flash with some frequency, add as it may seem as long as your healer is not going Medica-crazy Flash should be able to keep the hate of the other mobs.
Cycle through targets, deliver a few of your enmity+ attacks on the secondary targets to gain a bit more enmity on them.
Don't be afraid to let go of your current target and switch to a different one once the one you're hitting is at 25% health or somesuch, the DDs will finish it off before you lose hate and you can start getting a headstart on hate on the other enemies

So I can not say as much about PLD as i am a WAR, but what I can tell you is ever as a good experienced tank, there is often little you can do when your party you get from the DF is not that good and do things they shouldn't.

When I run with FC i can do a single overpower and a single flash (and maybe a few parts of a combo on side mobs now and then) and everything stays glues to me because my healer isnt overhealing, my dps follow my targets (no you dont need marks to have this work), if I loss threat they dont run away, and people do their jobs. Now when I pug with DF... well.. sometimes I make things worse by trying to be the good tank and tank everything. The thing we all need to learn is that, for at least trash mobs, if one goes off and you put all your attention on it and lose the other 2 also it helps no one (and often leads to even more of your bad tank chat BS).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jahaudant

At your level, if you're feeling lazy, you can probably just hit Flash after each Halone rather than comboing the other targets individually.

You basically regenerate full MP running between each trash pull. Don't bother using Flash sparingly.

---

Liked your post.

Never hold back as a tank, not only a little, especially on multi-mob pulls. I'll wait the required 3 secs for a tic of TP but I'm using Overpower until everything's dead. It's just easier to rest for TP after you've generated hate on everything and nothing's running around out of your hands. For Single Target, run in and use STUN right away so that you're not getting hit and no cures are being thrown.

Really easy way to keep hate off the healer.

If flash is resisted I guarantee it's less enmity, don't spam it! Use it for blinding, if you feel it's time the mob uses a physical TP move or gets in a good critical, use flash beforehand.

That GCD of a resisted flash is better used on a shield swipe or RoH. And I'd rely more on a combination of shield bash and flash than relying on one or the other to save face.

Provoke sparingly. If you're dual tanking and your support tank is hurting, provoke and cover!

Generating more hate than a healer is not the question. Providing you use shield oath and spirits within, and promptly stun TP moves and blind according to the battle timeline, you'll save more MP, lose less hate.

Also, it could be your shield. A good shield is even more important than your armor. Without shield swipe I don't know what I'd do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rajah

If you're dual tanking and your support tank is hurting, provoke and cover!

---

Provoke places you at the top of the hate list, covering after that would be pretty pointless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rajah

If flash is resisted I guarantee it's less enmity.

---

I highly doubt this is the case, it makes no sense and wasn't the case in XI either. I will test it tonight though, unless you aren't just guessing and actually have evidence?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rajah

That GCD of a resisted flash is better used on a shield swipe or RoH.
Generating more hate than a healer is not the question
Also, it could be your shield.

---

OP is describing problems in keeping hate on multiple mobs at the same time... none of this advise makes sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jahaudant

-snip-

---

The guy is either a troll or flat out doesn't know what he is doing. See http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...us-Stats/page6 where he says cure is worth more emnity then flash. No idea why you keep posting this stuff Rajah.

Shield Swipe gives you emnity based on the dmg you do (x2 for shield oath) that still does not equal to a single flash (even with the blind resisted since there is no evidence that a resisted blind provides less emnity) and no where even close to Savage Blade or Rage of Halone. The only good thing about shield swipe is that 1.) it doesn't break your combo and 2.) if you haven't used it more then 3 times it can be used as an interrupt (provided that the mob is not immune to the pacification effect).

@Op - keeping hate on multiple mobs basically comes down to learning when and how often to flash as well as learning to switch targets constantly using single target skills on each. Get into the habit of watching the emnity bars on the party screen every time you switch. It will show you were to focus more of your attention. General opening for me pull with shield lob, flash once all mobs are there, fast blade - savage blade - rage of halone on 1st target, flash, fast blade savage blade on 2nd target, rage of halone on 3rd target. After that it's just watching bars and adjusting as needed.

Okay first thing is first, know your hate multipliers that goes as such:

Savage Blade = 3.00 Enmity Multiplier
That is 100 potency non-comboed for 300 enmity or 200p for 600e (Actually 750e if you count the 150p from Fast Blade)

Rage of Halone = 5.00 Enmity Multiplier
That is 260p for 1300e

Shield Lob = 3.00 Enmity Multiplier
That is 120p for 360e

And Flash = (Weapon DMG*X)+(Strength*Y)+(Determination*Z) = Enmity
As you can see Flash is weapon/stat based and has no multiplier so you will always get more hate using your combos. So think of Flash not as your main hate tool but more as a 'placeholder' until you can use your more suitable hate tools.

Provoke has already been explained but one overlooked hate tool is Fight or Flight. If you are having trouble keeping hate, pop FoF. Your Shield Lob will become 160p/480e, Savage Blade 260p/780e, etc.

The second thing is, remember you don't have to use one combo on just one mob. So lets say you have your standard 3 mob pull. mA, mB, and mC.

You Shield Lob mA.@360e (if you they are far enough away you can sometimes get in a second one for more free hate.)
Then you use Fast Blade. mA@510 (870 if you managed to double up on SL)
Then you switch target and Savage Blade on mb. mB@600e
And you switch again to hit mC with Rage of Halone. mC@1300

You mix in flash generously and you've spread the hate around. I usually have my SL macroed to mark the target as #1 and Rage of Halone as #2. So even if you loose hate on the first target by the time that happens if the DD's are all doing their job it'll be near dead by the time it aggros the healer. So I go back to mB to since it has the lowest hate hit it with Fast > Savage. And then if I need to I'll swtich to mC and Rage. After that if mC is still standing I go in to MP recovery mode depending on how heavily I used flash and that's a wrap.

So in short.
Remember your hate values
Don't be shy about spreading your combos out over multiple mobs.
And remember to mark your targets/communicate with your party. Some times its as simply as saying "Hey DD's can you wait until the second time I use Flash to start attacking?" That can turn a nightmare of a party into a good one.

It's also important to note that overhes generate threat. It's not uncommon for some healers to spam heals, use a bigger heal than needed, or use an AoE heal when it's not needed. If a healer spams they WILL get threat.

With that in mind, you still need to generate aoe threat. As a warrior you should use overpower and flash to start. And try and get a fracture up on multiple targets(trust me it helps). As a paladin, using flash liberally is a must. If you have full mana, you can flash. Also, on all tanks, using your threat combo split amongst different targets makes a huge impact on threat and tp. Doing this ensures threat and makes the difference between an okay tank and an exceptional one.

Also. Remind healers that spamming overhes wi get threat. If they don't run to you once they get threat, it's a fail on their part.

The fact that in your OP, the only thing you did to gain threat on the other enemies is use flash shows that you are not suited to be a tank. Just play lancer or something like 100,000 other players honestly.

Provoke is beast for pulling

Halone this Halone that

Let's see what you do when you need shield oath to even keep hate.

As a healer I can't give you advice on to play a Tank, but I've seen many situations where I've grab the aggro.
To avoid this I simply try to sleep at least one monster.
The tank will take less damages and the healer will have to do less heal.

You can put a specific mark on a monster and tell your WHM or BLM (or other class that can cast a sleep spell) to sleep him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dreamslave

The fact that in your OP, the only thing you did to gain threat on the other enemies is use flash shows that you are not suited to be a tank. Just play lancer or something like 100,000 other players honestly.

---

Take no notice of this. Some people prefer to throw this kind of remark around rather than offer any kind of constructive feedback.

The fact that you come here to ask for assistance and are willing to grow and learn, is exactly why you are suited to be a tank. It's those that think their way is the only way that aren't suited to it (and the same goes for any class).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rajah

Halone this Halone that

Let's see what you do when you need shield oath to even keep hate.

---

When you do get Shield Oath, it's an incredibly powerful tool and you'd be stupid not to use it. Prior to that, Gladiator is probably a better choice over Paladin because you have twice as many cross class skills to draw from, many of which can increase damage output (which results in better enmity gain from damage). Interestingly enough, though, the OP isn't asking for information about keeping enmity post 40 PLD.

Of course, this isn't an unexpected statement from someone such as yourself.

does paladin have an innate enmity boost? i noticed its easier to hold hate even with flash since i unlocked pld. maybe its due to sword oath? also equiping the paladin crystal increase your hp/mp. since i like to try to DD when hate is secure i equiped the paladin gem for sword oath.