Regen and enmity generation

I am a 50 WHM and all week have been progressing through endgame content and along with my (also WHM) healing partner we have noticed the enmity generation from regen seems to be entirely disproportionate.

The issue is that rather than a flat enmity amount per cast of the spell, regen is considered almost exactly the same as any general cure spell and accruing enmity as such. (70 + HoT x 0.5 according to Japanese enmity tests)

As a basic example.

Going into the Amdapor demon wall boss fight I pre-cast regen on myself and my party members. assuming an average per tic amount of 350HP -This is a conservative number especially as regen tics can proc- on 4 players, regen is 'healing' 1400HP every 3 seconds.

Current enmity generation for cure is 0.5 for every point of cure, thus 1400 HP every 3 seconds means WHM enmity generation of 700 every 3 seconds before any active healing spells are cast. Overhealing -curing while the HP bar is full- generates enmity at the same rate as if the cure actively regenerates HP.

Obviously in endgame instances regen alone is not enough and further healing is required in addition to the regen. As a cure 2 can crit to in excess of 2000 a WHM can feasibly gain 1700 enmity in 3 seconds. (1000 enmity from a cure 2 + 700 enmity from the 'passive' healing from the regen tic)

To put this into perspective a 50 PLD using Flash while under the effect of shield oath only generates 1100 enmity, a deficit in the above case of 600 from the whm in the same time period.

This become even more problematic when you consider almost all endgame content are 8 man raids and if a WHM does a full regen rotation they can feasibly generate in excess of 1400 enmity in a single tic before a cure is even cast.

This causes even more issues if a party member is given regen before engaging a group of enemies. In the majority of instances while the tank is pulling the enemy or group of enemies, they gain a tic of regen and the monsters immediately run onto the mage, even if the tank is on full HP.

Even more confusing I was running an instance of Amdapor Keep today and died while regen remained on my tank. I returned to the beginning of the instance and a enemy monster I had slept awoke and immediately started trying to run to the beginning of the instance to attack me due to enmity generation from the ongoing regen.

I am unsure having not had the time to level SCH if the same issue exists with Whispering Dawn, but considering the amount of HoT abilities used by the healing classes I feel this is something that really needs to be addressed.

I have also submitted a bug report but I also wanted to post here as I have a feeling this is currently 'working as intended' and the entire ramifications of how much enmity this would generate has slipped past the development team.

Perhaps you should not be casting regen on the whole party right before the pull?

Flash > Fast Blade > Circle of Scorn (no GCD) > Savage Blade > Spirits Within (no GCD) > Rage of Halone

This combo, taking roughly 3-4 seconds to complete should generate (estimating) around 6000 enmity. Once that initial enmity spike has been established maintaining it as a PLD on a single target is laughably easy. This takes care of your single target / boss tanking woes easily.

As for multi and trash pulls, I'm not sure I can tell if you are speaking from first hand experience or theory crafting. The way you are describing regen enmity gain shouldn't cause a problem for any attentive PLD. I believe enmity from cured HP is split up and applied evenly to all mobs you currently have pulled. For example, rather than that 1700 enmity Cure/Regen tic being applied to each of the 3 mobs you have just pulled, you actually get 566 enmity on each mob. Easily low enough for a responsive tank to overcome with a Flash. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this!

If this is still a problem you are encountering I can only suggest that you avoid precasting regen on every single party member, or asking your group to refrain from performing any actions for 2-3 seconds after the tank engages.

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Originally Posted by KatzeTitania

Cut for text limit sorry

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It was done deliberately to test this issue, but why should a tank be forced to wait on pulling the next set of trash mobs if he has regen still active from last pull? Also SCH has a skill from their fairy Whispering Dawn which targets all members in radius, which I imagine causes them tremendous enmity issues.

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Originally Posted by Jahaudant

Cut for text limit sorry

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To answer your question we discovered enmity generation issues with regen during Titan Hard, and my above examples on trash mobs were deliberate experimentation. As to the enmity being split across mobs, I am mainly concerned with this in a single boss fight setting.

For a single target example I can say that during one Titan Hard run I did nothing but kept up a regen rotation for first phase, while the other WHM did all other cures as required. When he used Geocrush and I cast Medica II on the party I pulled hate momentarily and had to hit shroud of saints. I have main healed my tank for years and he is no slouch, especially when we are pursuing world firsts.

The fact that with a HoT alone I was higher on the hate list than 5 DPS in full Darklight/penta melded darksteel with relics cannot be intended. If nothing else, the implications for SCH as a main healer on prolonged fights in endgame instances is enough reason for this to be looked at again.

I'd post this in the bug report forum too. Every forum you can find. As a future end game healer I don't want to be pulling threat everytime I throw out a big heal.

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Originally Posted by KatzeTitania

Perhaps you should not be casting regen on the whole party right before the pull?

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Maybe you can go clear bosses in the Binding Coil of Bahamut's Labyrinth, too, and then come back and give her healing advice.

I noticed this as well. It seems every tick of Regen adds enmity which doesn't seem like it should be. I dealt with it regardless, just something I wasn't expecting. It sucks when adds spawn mid fight and you have a couple regens on your party. You are instantly targeted.

I kinda like it though. Makes juggling your enmity tougher along with keeping your tank on their toes. Makes for interesting play. Oh how I wish THF was available for hate management. That would be so fun.

I just wanna chime in here and say that the SCH fairy has her own enmity, and it's not uncommon for her to pull aggro when using Whispering Dawn at the start of a pull (at least around level 30 where I am). So from a SCH perspective, the issue is more that enemies occasionally run away from tanks while they're building aoe enmity at the start of a fight. I've never seen it pull a tank's primary target.

WAR uses Holmgang to bind, then Infuriate>Unchained>Berserk>Enmity combos should overrule your Regen issue.

:) For every problem there is a solution!

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

WAR uses Holmgang to bind, then Infuriate>Unchained>Berserk>Enmity combos should overrule your Regen issue.

:) For every problem there is a solution!

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Please note in the original post:

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Originally Posted by KiraHime

Even more confusing I was running an instance of Amdapor Keep today and died while regen remained on my tank. I returned to the beginning of the instance and a enemy monster I had slept awoke and immediately started trying to run to the beginning of the instance to attack me due to enmity generation from the ongoing regen.

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The tank is successfully holding hate against some of the best DPS in the game in Binding Coil. If he's losing hate to regen in Ampador even after the healer dies and returns, it's a bug. I don't discredit you for trying to be helpful, but it completely misses the point by focusing on a symptom rather than the problem.

That is strange. Once the healer dies all hate should be lost.

But I wasn't replying to that part. I was replying to the part about applying Regen before/during pulls.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

WAR uses Holmgang to bind, then Infuriate>Unchained>Berserk>Enmity combos should overrule your Regen issue.

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While I appreciate the fact that there are methods for tanks to gain and generate hate, the example of precasting regen on a group was used to showcase just how imbalanced the currently enmity calculation seems for this particular spell.

I tanked with Regen on, and yes, it pulled hate right away but my method worked.

I'm not sure what happened to you with Amdapor Keep, but I haven't had a single hate related issue since I started spamming it.

Maybe it was a one off thing?

I've notice this also on Regen and found it extremely odd and unjustifiable.

Ican understand the bigger cures throwing out higher enmity, but Regen should certainly be looked into.

Agreed this needs looked into :)

Yeah, I used to cast regen on myself and the tank before s/he would pull, but even if someone would just run up and aggro the mobs, they would all immediately switch target to me on the first regen tic. I wait until I cast one of the cures at least 2 to 3 times before putting regen on the tank and whoever else needs it.