Tank Roles, DPS Roles, Healer Roles... No Support Roles?

No seriously - why no support roles?

You know, roles that carry the primary responsibility of making sure other members of your party are either buffed or debuffed, and where everything else (healing, DDing, etc.) is secondary?

Any hints at when they might be coming to this game, if at all?

I'm personally planning on possibly playing smn as a supportish role (rouse w/ physick spam + eye for an eye if healer needs help/surecast titan if tank goes down/virus on boss during big incoming damage/etc.) all that mixed with the 20% chance of increasing spell speed by 20% for 8 seconds when pet crits should make smn a worthy support role if played right (which I plan to do!).

Bard however I've heard their support has been nerfed, and their damage has been buffed, however their MP regen sounds like something that would really help out if needed and rain of death/army's paeon are some interesting skills that are definitely support, but rain of death is also a decent aoe it seems so it's kind of half and half. I'm not sure how bard curing is going to work but in theory it sounds ridiculously bad, due to having 0 mnd and no cure potency increases/cast speed increases (like smn has) so I don't see a reason to get it especially since you have no MP regening abilities.

Edit : Well my posts for the "day" won't reset, it's been like 2 days and I still can't make a new one....this forum system sucks.

Anyways, my smn theory is down the drain, rouse isn't what I thought it was :( so I guess the class closest to full support would be a brd now....no idea what class I'm going to play instead of smn though, maybe a sch even though everyone and their mother is rolling one right now >_<;.

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

No seriously - why no support roles?

You know, roles that carry the primary responsibility of making sure other members of your party are either buffed or debuffed, and where everything else (healing, DDing, etc.) is secondary?

Any hints at when they might be coming to this game, if at all?

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I think hard part about having something that's opposite of current jobs like Scholar (healing / support) and Bard (damage deal / support) is making something that's Support / Damage but doesn't overshadow the secondary support focus of the other jobs.Though I would like to see more buffing / debuffing jobs that act as their primary. I don't think we will. But who knows..maybe Yoshi has something in mind.

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

No seriously - why no support roles?...

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I highly doubt that will be implemented anytime soon, for multiple reasons. The main ones being;

First: We would need a wider class variety, the only class I really consider a "support" or "Buffer" if will are the Bards, Scholar really IS just another healer.
Second: Parties are too small for that, given our 4man party, after tank/healer, giving a "buff/debuff" spot would only leave 1 raw dps class, it would have to be some pretty insane buffs/debuffs to make up for the lack of dps, which would in turn completely unbalance 8/24man content.

Perhaps once we see a bigger abundance of classes, such as Ninja, Samurai, Fencer, Calculator, Mediator, Thief.
But definitely not anytime soon.

What has me concerned is that so much of the UI and even Forums stick to the idea of 'Tank' 'Healer' and 'DPS', that I feel all jobs will end up in one of these 3 buckets only. So there may one day be a job we would think as mainly a support role (RDM with Buffing/Debuffing abilities), but it will probably be adjusted to fit into one of the 3 categories above, and every support ability would be 'secondary'.

how about a shoulder to cry on? get it? cuz you want support? hahaha just kidding, just kidding.... the game hasn't even launched (or i guess relaunched, heyo!) and you want an expansion already? relax, i'm sure they'll figure it out eventually, just like it took them 3 years to figure the basics out. :) think about it, where is the red mage class or job, potentially a support class, green mage (or elementalist i guess) also a support class... ummmm.... nothing else comes to mind... maybe time mage if were lucky. there's a bunch more. but probably just like an OG final fantasy game you gotta start with the basic jobs ;-) also they don't fit into the duty finder roles (for now). maybe they just don't need them?

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Originally Posted by Iwazaru

Bard I've heard their support has been nerfed; however their MP regen sounds like something that would help out. I'm not sure how bard curing is going to work.

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From what I understand from B4, BRD doesn't have CNJ as a secondary class to pull abilities from anymore. The BRDs I talked to could use ARC (of course) and LNC, PGL skills. So BRD has no healing it can do whatsoever.
The MP Regen is really only useful in very very very long fights as MP is generally not an issue for a majority of the cast since most if not all mana using jobs/classes have ways of managing their mana that it's not an issue. BLM has umbral ice buff and PLD has Riot Blade. SCH and SMN shouldn't have mana issues since mostly a pet class and supplemented with spells, so those are generally mana efficient designs. WHM generally doesn't have mana issues but could potentially benefit in extremely long high damage fights.

Good luck finding a bard that will sing and reduce their damage by a massive amount in a DF party.

Regardless, to answer the OP- A support job isn't casual. So Yoshi didn't want it. Support is sorta spread out between all classes.

Looking at FFXI, every party wanted a support job but few people wanted to play them. The long and short of it is that pure support jobs are fairly boring, tedious, and thankless to play for extended periods of time.

Pure support jobs are a NIGHTMARE balancewise, because you typically wind up with one of two situations. The first issue, which mostly crops up with debuffs, is that they're pretty much useless. Either too many things resist their status heavily (Or are outright immune) or their effects are small enough that just adding in another DD would be preferred.

The other example is what we saw happen in FFXI, where they're so powerful that nobody will want to do anything without them. Usually this is a case of buffs that increase damage (Since faster kills is generally preferred more than being invincible), but it can also be the case with downright broken debuffs. While it's possible to play without these debuffers, because they make all the party members so much better, it's considered not worth it to do an event without them.

Anyway, in FFXIV it seems what they've done instead is spread debuffs out across many jobs. You've got Virus from arcanist, slow from Lancer (via feint), as well as a wide variety of poisons you can use as items to inflict debuffs on a monster. Plus most DoW have their own self-buffs, and CNJ comes with party buffs of it's own. By spreading the support out, it's easier to balance without ruining a class. They can keep the buffs to an extent where they're useful, but not REQUIRED (Nobody would take a buffer class if the buffs were only "ok" rather than "essential"), while the class can do their main role in addition to their buffs.

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Originally Posted by Yashnaheen

Good luck finding a bard that will sing and reduce their damage by a massive amount in a DF party.

Regardless, to answer the OP- A support job isn't casual. So Yoshi didn't want it. Support is sorta spread out between all classes.

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As true as it may be, these people would also be idiots to not use thier songs. I would kick them if I ever ran out of MP once just because they wanted to do more DPS (If I had the power to... but of course you can't in DF parties...)

In my opinion, DRG is something of a support role DD.

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Originally Posted by Reaujien

No seriously - why no support roles?

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Short Answer: They don't fit in a modern MMORPG and good riddance.

Long Answer: Debuffing and buffing are tertiary class aspects, and modern MMO design blends them into tank/heals/DPS for the sake of giving parties the tools they need in terms of cooldowns and CC while giving the aforementioned 3 roles depth in gameplay and performance. Building classes around tertiary aspects leads to classes that are in high demand but are not popular to play, creating a situation where one or two classes can hold an entire raid hostage. They also lead to infamous bait and switch scenarios, as hybrids tended to get the short end of the stick by being used for "support" in late/end-game, screwing over all those who liked the hybrid concept or aesthetic of the class in question.

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Originally Posted by Septimus

Looking at FFXI, every party wanted a support job but few people wanted to play them. The long and short of it is that pure support jobs are fairly boring, tedious, and thankless to play for extended periods of time.

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I must not have been playing the same game. BRD is one of the most active and fun jobs I ever played in any MMO ever.

Did you really say that a support role is the most important role and that tanking/healing/dpsing are secondary to it? Good lord.

As everybody else stated, playing support tends to be a thankless job and games have a hard time getting people to play them without it being tied to a different role.

Forget 'Modern MMORPG' (aka: what everyone else is doing). This is not 'New MMORPG 2.0' this is 'Final Fantasy'. And one of the hallmarks of all Final Fantasy games is some sort of support role. Even their latest console games still have support roles. Therefore, for this to still deserve the title of Final Fantasy, they need to retain their support roles.

But because they need to simplify things for people, they may disguise the 'support' role as a 'DPS' or 'Healing' role (people who complain about text in an RPG can't handle more than 3 types of options ; ;).

So one day we may find RDM, Synergist, Dancer, whatever, in the future, but disguised and tweaked a bit to push them into one of those categories.

(Maybe one day I can be an RDM again and poke things with my sword!)

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

And one of the hallmarks of all Final Fantasy games is some sort of support role. Even their latest console games still have support roles. Therefore, for this to still deserve the title of Final Fantasy, they need to retain their support roles.

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For this to still deserve the title Final Fantasy it has to have Final Fantasy written on the name. Close-minded fanboys will wank to pictures of chocobo and airships while saying any game not showing them off ad nauseum is not worthy of the title, but that's the truth of it.

Your nonsensical "different for the sake of being different" thing aside, console games do not need the trinity because tank roles don't really exist in them, and everyone is either DPS or some variation of DPS with a gimmick or three, barring the mandatory healer. This is why FFXI's class and role distribution was so lopsided: they were using an approach that only works for single-player console RPGs.

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But because they need to simplify things for people, they may disguise the 'support' role as a 'DPS' or 'Healing' role (people who complain about text in an RPG can't handle more than 3 types of options.

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Rather than simplification, it's more the fact that like with every concept that gets adapted from one genre to another, some parts of the concept will work as they are, others are altered to fit the new genre while others will get dropped entirely. "Support" is literally the 5th wheel in this case and as such was blended into the trinity.

PS: Your claim of BRD being disguised as DPS would have merit if BRD was just slightly above PLD in DPS while trailing FAR behind everyone else. Turns out BRD is up there with the best of them, hence their being a DPS with group cooldowns like a WoW enhancement shaman.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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Without the traditional concepts of 'Crystals', 'Jobs', 'Chocobos', 'Magic', it is hard to live up to the Final Fantasy franchise... It may well be a great game, a better game, but it will be missing the elements that one expects in a game labeled Final Fantasy. Much like one would expect the next 'Star Wars' game to feature space, and ships. If it featured only Cars and a cooking simulator, people would be woefully disappointed.

And he specifically stated he wants to keep the elements and essence of Final Fantasy alive (which is why its so Final Fantasyish if you look at it). So it is quite reasonable to expect support like roles in the future.

Me, I'm looking forward to the 'Supportish' role of RDM returning, hopefully as a DPS, which can do both attacks and support the party!

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

I think hard part about having something that's opposite of current jobs like Scholar (healing / support) and Bard (damage deal / support) is making something that's Support / Damage but doesn't overshadow the secondary support focus of the other jobs.Though I would like to see more buffing / debuffing jobs that act as their primary. I don't think we will. But who knows..maybe Yoshi has something in mind.

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buffing and debuffing would be a redmage... and i actually hope they add it to either cnj or thm

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Originally Posted by Valiant

buffing and debuffing would be an Oracle... and i actually hope they add it to either cnj or thm

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Fixed.

PS: Keep us out of this, please.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

And one of the hallmarks of all Final Fantasy games is some sort of support role.

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I'm having trouble figuring out who the support character was in FF1, FF2, FF4, FF6, FF7, FF8, FF9, or FF10. Unless you're lumping healer in with support.

Support is spells like Protect, which the Conjurer has. Stoneskin, which the Conjurer has. And songs, like the Bard has.

Bard and Healers are the Supports. The Supports in games now have become the Healers. Most Final Fantasy Titles are the same way, FF13 is the only game that really comes to mind that has a Role set to Debuffing and Buffing, and even then they weren't used long term. A few moments in a fight and then they're made useless until later. In an MMO, usually Healers bring that kind of stuff now. They're in charge of getting rid of the debuffs now, they're in charge of making sure the party has the good stuff on them.

All you would need to make a proper support class would have buffs and debuffs with short timers that you need bring into play via a rotation similar to other classes. Off the top of my head, maybe having a time mage doing a constant rotation to gradually increase the combat speed of your party. Once you cap the attack/movement speed you move onto debuffing the mob if it isn't resistant and by the time you finish that move onto the next buff/debuff.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I'm having trouble figuring out who the support character was in ff.

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Final fantasyTactics had like 5 support jobs

ffv is where dancer made its first appearance and it was a support job

ff9

Adelbert Steiner was suppor by having the ability to adsorb more damage then any player so in case all your player die he would be standing to raise some 1 so it wont be endgame,

Quina Quen was blue mage that had alot of ability that will help you against monster damage, for example there a boss fight where boss would cast earthquake and do massive damage well quina has a spell that would keep you off the ground so you would take 0 damage.

and last was Eiko Carol the smn, her smn had ability to add buff to other caracter like adding element damage to your attacks

i can keep on going with a huge list.... support jobs is part of the final fantasy franchise just like every single story on ff is based on a crystal

I like support classes.

Seriously doubt SE will implement it though. I seriously doubt they'd even consider it. It's very clear that they wanted to redesign 1.0 into a mainstream MMO. I don't think they'll change directions into making this more of a unique game, especially after the alleged success 2.0 has been.

Like I said, I'd love to see it. It's just not likely at all.

Now, if it could happen, I'd love to see it like this.

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Originally Posted by Pots_Talos

All you would need to make a proper support class would have buffs and debuffs with short timers that you need bring into play via a rotation similar to other classes. Off the top of my head, maybe having a time mage doing a constant rotation to gradually increase the combat speed of your party. Once you cap the attack/movement speed you move onto debuffing the mob if it isn't resistant and by the time you finish that move onto the next buff/debuff.

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Also, who else would like to see some 5-6 man dungeons? Tank, Healer, DD + DD + DD, Support. Like in XI, would be neat, I think.

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Originally Posted by Drakent

stuff

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I know tactics and 5 had support jobs. That's why I didn't list them. As for 9, this thread is about how FF14 has no jobs that are PRIMARILY support, where that is the primary function. If the examples from 9 are valid, then we can go ahead and call WHM a support job instead of a healer due to stoneskin, protect, and regen.

Steiner was a tank. Quina was primarily DPS, with Quina only having two buffs, and four debuffs (All of which either had a low success rate or hit the party as well), and the rest of her blue magic being either damage or Death of some kind. Eiko was primarily a healer, being able to cast white magic, while her summons were all damage of some kind with the exception of Carbuncle. Heck... of the support abilities they have, you didn't even manage to get them right :/

My point is, the vast majority of FF games do not have a dedicated support job, such as what's being asked for in this thread. Typically, support is a secondary role of black mage or white mage. No, support roles are not as big a part of the FF franchise as the Crystals. They're more like the Buster Sword: Some FF games have it. The majority do not.

Support is spread out across nearly all jobs. A little slow here, a little protect there. I find that a lot more useful than a designated support class (and remember that cross-classing allows a person to specialize more in support by picking up those support skills). The way it is set up you can have 8 people run into a room and in three turns bang out 12 buff/debuff skills. Insofar as debuffs go, I'm very satisfied.

I only wish we had more pre-game buffs like protect to pass around. Maybe they'll add those in with a new level cap or additional jobs. Anyone else hopeful that the two jobs for one class thing is going to get passed around beyond Arcanist?

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I'm having trouble figuring out who the support character was in FF1, FF2, FF4, FF6, FF7, FF8, FF9, or FF10. Unless you're lumping healer in with support.

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Final Fantasy XIV utilizes a job/class system so it should only be compared to other Final Fantasy games that have them. So in that regard, yes, it should have a support role.

As a side note, I recently ran through FF1 again and played with Fighter, Thief, Black Belt, and Red Mage. I found Red Mage in that game did subpar damage all around, be it from spells or swords. Know what he excelled at doing? Being support, casting Fast, Ruse, Saber, ect...
Also, Edward from FF4 would be considered support with his bard spells. In my opinion Blue Mage is support, which would knock out most if not all of the other titles from the list (of course this is just my opinion).

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Originally Posted by Lyein

I only wish we had more pre-game buffs like protect to pass around. Maybe they'll add those in with a new level cap or additional jobs.

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Primary stat buffs are usually in that category, but XIV blended those in through the mere presence of a class in your party (and was also to encourage people to make balanced parties instead of stacking classes).

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

My point is, the vast majority of FF games do not have a dedicated support job, such as what's being asked for in this thread. Typically, support is a secondary role of black mage or white mage. No, support roles are not as big a part of the FF franchise as the Crystals. They're more like the Buster Sword: Some FF games have it. The majority do not.

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Someone that gets it.

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The HMS Support sailed when Yoshida made Bard sprout from the archer class, resulting in the ranged DPS with group cooldowns we currently have.

A class entirely dedicated to buffing and debuffing doesn't work in a modern MMORPG, as the game and playerbase lack the dynamics seen in the old EQ days where you could justify a class that no one liked playing. Let's not pretend it was different in FFXI, because it was not; "support" classes have always been unpopular when the entire class is built on buff/debuffs, have always been seriously outnumbered by people who played other roles and as such had an insane amount of pull and leverage in groups (the culmination of this disgusting display being FFXI's princess Bard and princess Red Mage).