"Parsed Facts" and "Ecologic Validity"

As an "old hare", I am used to parsers and recognize their value; but I have to admit I am quite concerned about the way they are used.
Often enough, I read about "optimal rotations" backed up by "undeniable parser evidence". Which then is used to make statements like
"chain X sucks, because chain Y does 3% more damage". Hey guys, this is not how it works.

When was the last time a boss fight allowed you to follow through with a static skill rotation? 1995? Ultima Online? Last time I checked,
every single DD in FF had a number of utility skills that are not directly tied to damage output. Just yesterday I had a lancer tell me that
"Feint sucks, because it is only 120 potency for 80 TP and disturbs my chain". I was at a loss. With a single attack, this guy was able to
reduce the damage I (PLD) receive from a raid boss by an incredible 20% for 20 seconds.* With no cooldown, just 80 TP. But he wouldn't,
because his parser said that "Feint sucks".

Now it is clear that not everyone in this game is an idiot, but sometimes I wonder whether the powers of Mr. Parser are not highly, highly
overestimated. They are definitely a good tool for estimating the effects of single stats on weapons or equipment (e.g.: how much extra
damage do I get for one point of STR). They are less efficient at estimating the trade-offs between two stats (e.g., is it better to invest in
STR or in VIT as a tank); and they completely fail at modeling the ever-changing conditions of a typical boss encounter in a 2013 MMO.

As such, their real-life (...) applicability (or "Ecological Validity") is inherently limited outside the pre-defined setting the respective tests are
run in. As such, a parser will not tell you whether your BLM profits more from additional INT or a little more HP to survive that nasty AOE. It
will also not be able to tell you if your skill at evading AOEs is high enough to warrant the investment in a glass-cannon build, when a more
moderate distribution of stats could save your ass even if you get hit.

There are countless other examples where a parser gives you a good idea about what to look for in general. But ultimately, the "best" stat
distribution or equipment depends on your skill, your playstyle, the encounter, and, often enough neglected, also your group composition.
A PLD doesn't normally need 5000 HP. But he will need 5000 HP if there is even a small possibility the WHM catches a lag spike.

In short: use parsers if you think you have to. It's actually quite fun to squeeze out that final 2%, even if the scenario you are assuming is
purely hypothetical (e.g., fighting against a static dummy). But use your brain to make decisions based on the overall situation, which includes
you, your equipment and role, but also the synergies between party members and specifics of the enemies you are likely to face.

After all, nature gave you those big heads for a reason. And that reason is not to slavishly follow when a parser states "Feint sucks".
Or when your government tells you that yet another war for oil in some faraway desert country is "right" and "justified", for that matter, hahaha! Okok, no politics here!

:o

* Think!

Let's hope people will read pass the first 'level'

This is a MMORPG, compared to a single player game, you are not playing alone, you play with other people. You have to think about the others too. What parser does is help finding what we can call the 'third wheel' (people won't like that work hehe) People in FFXI and how i saw them in 1.0 are too much this is my money I play how I want, and sadly they need to stop thinking like that. Each people have to find a way to upper their play level and their gear so we don't waste time. Nobody I repeat NOBODY like fighting the same monster for 30min straight, it's boring it's long and everything.

I am 100% for parsers, because for me it helps finding my weakness to help me get better and not become the third wheel in the party. Parsers are good the problem is the people who doesn't know how to use it, or doesn't know how to respond beeing called the Third Wheel

Also sometimes logs goes too fast for people to see Parsers are good to actually study the battle DMG after the battle

I am 100% down with this line of thinking. Do what feels right and makes sense in the moment.

You will almost always run into those people that will do these type of things. Having a parser isn't the reason for it though. Good players use parser's to judge their performance as well as find optimal rotations, yes, but those players also know that the benefit of those utility abilities are just as important. The key to using the tools effictively is maxxing out your dps while still providing the support needed to accomplish the task at hand.

Blaming a parser for the peoples utter lack of intelligence isn't the way to go. On a boss you will never see a good player not slowing to increase their dps and if they aren't slowing "because it's a dps loss" they wouldn't be in any raid with me. Being able to maximize utility and dps is what seperates the good from the great players.

Great post. People will hopefully realize, especially once damage meters also become part of the game, that games like this are built around not only me doing dps, but also my ability to stay alive (run out of the run shapes of doom), to contribute to the group with what utility I have (that lancer skill is an excellent example), to not pull threat, etc.

Part of this problem IMO is that the tooltips are just WAY too vague and under explained.

I like to think I read well, but if you'd asked me before I had read this post, I would have told you that Feint has a 20% chance to apply a Slow. The tooltip literally says 'Slow +20%' and that's all. Only after reading the OP and looking at the tooltip again did I realize that '+20%' referred to the percentage of Slow applied.

If the tooltip properly explained that Feint applied an attack speed debuff to the target (is it 100% application on hit? That's not given either), then perhaps it would be easier to see its value. As the tooltip is now, it's easy to overlook.

I don't feel the parser is to blame here. The problem is the mentality of an unfortunately large portion of the playerbase who selfishly feel that the only thing that matters is how much damage THEY put out, whether THEY top the parse, whether THEY can pull hate off the tank (Yes, these poor unfortunate souls see that as a good thing).

There are so many things a good DD can do to help the party out as a whole, things like a lancer applying slow, a thaumaturge sleeping adds, or an archer binding a target the party is running from. Yet they refuse to do it because of one question, the only question that matters to them: How does this increase MY damage.

If you can't tell, I dislike this way of thinking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolff_Laarcen

If the tooltip properly explained that Feint applied an attack speed debuff to the target (is it 100% application on hit? That's not given either), then perhaps it would be easier to see its value. As the tooltip is now, it's easy to overlook.

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People tend to undervalue things because it doesn't increase their DPS.
In a high level of play, taking advantage of debuffs is key, and shouldn't be taken lightly.
The people who follow parsers and simulators blindly without understanding their class utility will do great damage (maybe..), but take much longer to kill a fight because they are burdening their group.

I'll keep all this in mind when i'm programming my simulator considering non-instant abilities in rotation.

Many groups will use class for a buff bot and the rest of the same class as pure damage output. So both situations can apply.

OP, if you were capable of tanking the raid boss without needing the 20% slow then the lancer was correct to forgo its use. The faster you can complete the dungeon, the better off everyone is. However, if the lack of the debuff caused you (or anyone else in the party) to deal less damage overall than the damage the lancer gained by not using it, then he was wrong and should have used it.

Its not like we can zerg a boss down in 60 seconds or need the max efficiency at killing for xp party. Yes, there are times when we need to go balls top the wall and dish it out as fast as possible. Its nice to care enough about your role to figure out what is going to work best a lot of the time, but the OP is right about utility and winging it when necessary.

Nice example. He's a tank and thinks a utility debuff that a DD can apply that reduces damage taken is a good thing when it comes to a tough/long fight. I've been playing a healer mostly in betas, and I think the same thing.

Man this reminded me so much of those drks who wouldn't use stun or weapon bash back in XI. Op, great post man, great post.

It is possible the party could carry itself well enough that Feint wouldn't influence the outcome. In that case, it would be better to do more direct damage than play cautiously with debuffs. But parser data wouldn't bring you to that conclusion.

That DRG's reasoning is bad, but he's not absolutely wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kirana

OP, if you were capable of tanking the raid boss without needing the 20% slow then the lancer was correct to forgo its use. The faster you can complete the dungeon, the better off everyone is. However, if the lack of the debuff caused you (or anyone else in the party) to deal less damage overall than the damage the lancer gained by not using it, then he was wrong and should have used it.

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Well if the PLD is taking less dmg then the WHM or SCH is healing less, allowing them more time to add to DPS, which would most definitely make up for the dmg loss in the time it takes the DRG to use ONE move.

The DRG cared only about their own DPS, not the overall DPS of the party, nor the overall safety of the party.

Though I agree with a lot of what the OP said, we need to recognize that sometimes it's how the game/content has been designed that can make utility-type skills "useless". Remember that video of a group of people from a certain LS downing Ifrit while all 8 of them were in their "summer event" swim suites? Don't get me wrong for I want a game, and most of its content, to be "deep" enough so that skillful use of such utility-type skills really have an impact. Just feels like these "modern MMOs" keep such skills on the 100% optional list...

Parsers are fun, it lets me know if I am fulfilling my potential. Am I using good equipment, was I smart in my material choice, how much damage did I loose to fashion, is my skill use and timing good.

But beyond that, it should take a back seat to the more important battle elements:
Is the team working well together, are we accomplishing our goals, is everyone having fun?

Sometimes (most times?) you do not need to have the best possible parser results to win.

So use them as a guide to know how to play, but not as a yardstick to determine who is best. Please save your Parser Egos for the PvP arena ^^;

Parsers are great tools, but as a great American bard said, "there are lies, damn lies and parser statistics."

People only talk about DPS parsers. I've never seen a hot thread about threat parsers or damaged healed parsers.

The problem is this: the ratio of DPS:Tank/Heals is too low. Thus people have the perception that unless you're the best at damage (because what else is DPS role for), you aren't going to be wanted. Thus, they focus on DPS parsers.

I think if you get into this trap, you need to roll a different class. If you're stressing out about 1 statistic all the time, you're not getting the big picture. A class is more than a statistic. And if you make others feel this this way about themselves...

Parsers give you information. Not thinking and not knowing what to do with the information are the problems.

This information goes along with your battle plan, any unusual situations in the fight, their importance / danger. It's easy to know what you can do. You can pretty well know what to expect out of other individuals and generally the group in your own FC. Duty finder groups are another story. I'd throw out all my buffs / debuffs as I have no idea how they react under stress or how easily they become overwhelmed.

With a good parser you'll see damage per hit (far superior to a DPS meter for gear evaluation), abilities used, Crit %, ACC, total number of attacks, damage taken and so on. You need to use all this information to evaluate a DD's performance. You the reader have to decide if it's a problem at all, if its gear, slow to engage, only one caring to CC etc.

Parsers give you great information. People too lazy to think give them a bad reputation.

On the other hand this is a FF MMO made by SE. No one (except SE) is going to be surprised when a lot of abilities are entirely useless.

Rotations tell you how maximise output damage, but maximising damage isn't a DPSer's only job. It's the people who don't realise this that are at fault.

Parsers are very useful for finding the best damage in ideal situations. You then take that rotation and modify it to fit in whatever else needs to be taken into account. But you first need a base rotation that gives you the best damage possible so you have that starting point for knowing what skill to use next in any given situation.

I couldn't care less about parsers. I use good judgment and common sense. A little understanding of your skills and the ability to execute them in a beneficial and efficient manner are what matter most in battles to me. Playing on a team goes right along with that. I don't care about parsers. I don't care what the community at large says is the "best" rotation or that I "need" this skill or that one. I play the way I want to, and that is the way of fun. Excuse me for not wanting to be another clone using the exact same skills in the exact same manner as everyone else.