Explaining the Battle Animation and Effect Shortcomings [+ Discussion]

I'd like this thread to be more constructive in nature, and analyze everything related to the current animation and particle effect issues rather than focus on just the size increase. As I don't have the exact terminology down, I don't mind people with more knowledge pointing out the mistakes in what I am about to say. The easier it is for developers to understand the issues, the better.

With that said, let's start.

1) The particle effects are sometimes too small to be aesthetically satisfying.

They are taking care of this in the next patch, so I will not discuss it in more detail.

2) The 'placeholder' animations for some of the higher rank spells and skills are more or less underwhelming.

In particular some of the higher rank spells and skills suffer from this trend. Let me show you a few examples:

First off, here is a high rank skill done correctly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Evmhd2pNzU

While the particle effects could be larger, that should be taken care of.

Now, here is a sixfold spear skill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_u1O...tailpage#t=55s

As you can see, only one hit out of six is shown. While the particle effects are fine, the animation itself looks like a placeholder that never got replaced properly.

More widely known are the current "Ancient Magic" spells:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wodu_aYjSdU

They are completely underwhelming for what they represent. So much so that simply increasing their size will not be enough to make them look acceptable.

There are not too many skills and spells that need this kind of makeover, but they certainly exist and should not be overlooked. If anyone has more examples I will list them here.

3) The animation and particle effects are cut from the middle if you initiate a new action while the old animation has not finished.

To show an example of this, let us look at the previous video in more detail (the bit at 00:05-00:07):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_u1OOzJogU

As you can see, both the animation and effects of 'Speed Surge' were cut off once the character in question initiated 'Line of Fire'. While this is understandable when it comes to the actual animation portion of the action, it does not matter whether the particle effects are large or not if they are going to be abruptly cut from the middle every time a new action is initiated. That, I feel, is a much larger problem than the actual size of the effect. I do not know what causes this, but it is aesthetically very displeasing.

4) There is a lack of proper transition animations from one action to the next.

When looking at the previous video in a different light, we can see that character's limbs tend to disappear and reappear once actions overlap, and the transition from one action to the next is not visually smooth, but ends very abruptly. I think this is a problem with the motion capture technology. While it is more of an aesthetic issue, it really makes the character's actions seem more disconnected and unnatural. The time and effort that went into creating these animations is more or less a waste with the way they function right now.

Here is an example of well-done transition animations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abQJW...eature=related

As you can see, while the animation may not completely finish the character model returns to it's default position naturally before initiating the new action. Very rarely do limbs disappear and reappear in between actions. This is aesthetically very important to get right.

5) Movement is not sharp enough for a game that requires more mobility, and moving around the battlefield is quite cumbersome.

What I mean by this is the small movement you make whilst stopping that moves you forward just slightly to make it feel like you are not in total control of your movements.

To show an example, look at what happens between 00:24-00:27 in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKbh6...tailpage#t=17s

When you stop, you still move an inch forward anyway. We should be able to disable this feature for the sake of control. Further, as in active mode you move at -20% speed I think removing this penalty would make things flow smoother during combat. With that addition I think strafing from side to side could use a speed increase as well, if you want to promote that sort of movement. If you want to encourage party vs. party encounters I think you should make being mobile during the battle a more "natural" and "sharp" experience, with fast movements and as little lag as possible. The way basic attacks also move you forward and backward feels quite unnatural as well, not to mention they tend to glitch due to lag and you won't actually "move" anywhere.

6) Every skill roots you to the ground.

This is a problem that ties to 5) as well. When every action, including changing modes from passive to active and vice-versa root you to the ground, moving around becomes too much of a hindrance and completely kills the pace of combat. In comparison to Final Fantasy XI, you could at least move around whilst performing basic attacks. In this game allowing for this sort of mobility is more than crucial.

While it may be too much work to unlock every action, having only some of the skills root you to the ground would be a good middleground. Basically meaning that the basic attacks, beneficial status skills (such as Speed Surge and the like) and pulling out your weapon of choice should be changed so that you can move whilst doing them, while other skills such as weapon skills and spell animations are sped up and the animations streamlined much like with the changes to the way Disciplines of the Land animations were adjusted. The point, in the end, is to make it feel like you are not rooted to the ground and if you are, there is a reasonable explanation for it and the animation does not take ages to finish as you adjust your leg slightly to the left and move your right shoulder a bit in a "realistic" way after the action has already finished, stopping you from moving for the duration of it.

Here is an example of a game where the animations are sharp, fast, and do not take ages to finish:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_F8B...eature=related

Please take a note at how the movement is also very smooth.

7) The lack of distinct sound effects makes it hard to determine which spells and skills are being used.

For example, in FFXI most enfeebling spells had a distinct sound effect to them that, along with the particle effects helped us to keep track of other people's actions and the pace of combat. "Provoke" in particular had quite a noticeable sound effect. Here you should be careful as to not make the sound effects annoying if used repeatedly.

Alright, that's all I can think of. If you, the community, want SE to address these issues the best way to do that is to participate in the discussion and give us your opinion so that the community representatives will take note and see it as an issue worth mentioning.

Great post and I hope everyone takes a moment to read through it, as it actually touches a few issues that haven't been talked about in other threads, yet deserve as much attention as the popular ones.


Personally I think #3 and #4 are the biggest problems with our animations/effects, and most people will not notice them until better and longer spell effects are added to the game.

Food for thought:

Picture Aero IV, and imagine it has the best spell effect in the game. Winds are called forth, hurricanes appear, and to finish it off, a tornado surrounds the enemy. Would you care about how awesome the spell effect is, if it's going to get cut off before the hurricanes actually show up, because you used Spirit Dart?


Unfortunately I do not know how hard this would be to fix. I'm assuming the issue is caused by the effects being tied to the character model.

Issues #3 and #4 are probably a sign that the animations were made for the alpha battle system, where it was almost impossible to overlap skills due to the bar that would fill before every action.

I'm honestly afraid of hearing an official response about issues #3 and #4, because I'm afraid of being told that these things are too deep in to be changed at this point. This would be a shame: It could mean that animations and spell effects would always look lackluster in our eyes, no matter how great they actually looked, simply because we would not get to experience them.

I agree with Solracht.. it urks me that the transition is just so unclean. Maybe this might change with auto-attack? Who knows but I really hope you can't spam skill after skill and it looks like a flailing monkey.
GREAT POST and good points. Well done

I fully agree with everything in this thread, they are my main concerns to make this game more pleasing to the eye and fun to play. I have confidence that the new battle system and such will be good, since they are working hard on that. However in the meantime, we needs more pleasing combat animations!

Thanks for the comments so far, keep 'em coming so we can make a difference!

This game is visually spectacular, but to make it really stand out the shortcomings need to be dealt with.

Ohhh SKIPPY!!! Rather than actually make nicely detailed battle effects they decided to enhance them to make them two times bigger. I am losing my patience with Final Fantasy XIV. This game can't be saved. Increasing the effect size doesn't change the fact that most of the animations are just awful. Stop quick fixing this game. If you really want to quick fix this game, just bury it and start over. This isn't Final Fantasy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zezlar

Stop quick fixing this game. If you really want to quick fix this game, just bury it and start over. This isn't Final Fantasy.

---

Thats exactly what Im saying since beta tests. Over nine months have passed and it is still actual. Seriously, what did SE really improved since beta tests? Game is noticeably more stable (still far from perfect), UI works noticeably smoother (still far from perfect), Skillups were replaced with SP/mob, leve linking gives extra SP, recipes list for DoH, and thats pretty much it. Everything else is somewhere between lame and not needed (vide larger mobs, aggro icon, sidequests, couple of NMs and 3 sets of good looking armor (since gear stats dont make much difference, it really is the look only). Its getting harder and harder to be optimistic about FFXIV future.

unnecessary comment x

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by solracht

This would be a shame: It could mean that animations and spell effects would always look lackluster in our eyes, no matter how great they actually looked, simply because we would not get to experience them.

---

I had this same gripe in FFXI, where many would gear swap prior to a spell or weaponskill and doing so would void its animation, most notably stun where all you would see was the blinks of your character into the set and back out of the set.

That said it seems to me that only very few abilities should allow players to move while performing them, drawing a weapon should be one of them, seeing as movement speed is already lowered in active mode. Weaponskills should not allow player movement during them until the animation is over, unless MAYBE a ranged WS, where the animation lies almost entirely on the target rather than the caster. I could see defensive spells allowing movement during the animation but certainly not offensive, it seems ample courtesy that player movement no longer interrupts casting.

They can still make the other abilities faster to execute however. Or at least make the period in which you can't move smaller.

Seeing Boricua's post reminded me of something I'd like to add:

It's true FFXI cut animations off too, but this was when something external was introduced into the battle: the gear swap. This gear swap doesn't even exist in FFXIV, so I don't think it's fair to say that point #3 and #4 aren't issues just because it "happened" in XI too, because it didn't. I know nobody has said this yet, but I feel like it'll happen eventually.

FFXI's battle system, without gear swaps (XIV's system) was pretty clean, except for a few exceptions (hundred fists, etc). Definitely not what's happening in XIV's.

Yes. Even in XI's case it was this unnatural and unintended behavior that caused the animation to glitch. One could say that this is the case with XIV as well, considering in the original combat system actions were not meant to be performed quickly one after another (which you already mentioned).

This has changed now however, and the animations should reflect this. I don't think there is a need to go beyond what XI offered in terms of animation and effect quality since I don't think any game has topped them in that regard in 8 years, but the spiritual sequel's animations and effects should be at least on-par with XI.

We are only asking for the bare minimum here.

Shameless bump.

Do you want SE to fix these issues? Make your opinion known by posting or "liking"!

I agree with everything you're saying. The issues with the battle animations and effects have been bothering me. I'm encouraged that the developers realize some of the issues, but I do worry that they don't realize ALL of the issues. The original post does a good job of spelling out what really needs to be fixed here.

I agree with all of the points made, and would also like to point out the following:

The timing of the animations versus when actions "actually" take place (referencing the battle log and the action bar) is quite out of sync. By smoothing up the animations, hopefully the player's attention can re-focus on the action, instead of watching the action bar for the next time to execute an action.

I've also noticed that in group play, if I land the killing blow, the animation often never seems to execute at all, particularly with some of my Lancer weaponskills. I'll end up going and looking at the battle log to see if my action even executed, only to find that I landed the killing blow, but in a particularly lackluster-looking fashion.

Bump

And wow, I never realized how awesome Simian Thrash looks!

Really hope we get a reply / action in regards to this issue!

Yes, indeed!

I can see why that skill would have you rooted to the ground, it makes sense. It's kinda like a tradeoff for being able to do something completely awesome.

But still, basic common animations need to be unlocked and some others streamlined. No way around that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Yes, indeed!

I can see why that skill would have you rooted to the ground, it makes sense. It's kinda like a tradeoff for being able to do something completely awesome.

But still, basic common animations need to be unlocked and some others streamlined. No way around that.

---

Agree 100%

When I first started playing Conjurer, I liked the idea of being able to move while casting. I still like the concept, but think that it could be evolved. The current system of being locked down for part of the casting cycle feels rather clunky.

I'd be all for a system in which some skills require you to be rooted for the entire cast duration, others which freely allow you to move, and others in which there is some form of penalty applied for moving while casting (e.g. cure amount is reduced, damage is reduced, etc). The forms of lockdown could even be varied depending upon class affinity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Shameless bump.

Do you want SE to fix these issues? Make your opinion known by posting or "liking"!

---

Liked and I actually agree with most, if not all of your points. Really hit the nail on the head with the Simian Thrash and Chaos Thrust examples.

Luminous Spire for the Gladiator works nicely since you a cool front flipping slash attack, but the majority of the sword based strikes seem to use the same 360 degree slash animation. Same for Marauder's various attacks. I'm really glad that the magic and special effects will be increased in size with the next update(?) so thats the first step, but the animations themselves need to be improved.

All the skills are motion captured unlike XI, so maybe that might take a little longer than usual to implement (i'm not sure since I dont know how much work goes into organizing mocap sessions), but I hope Yoshi-P and team take notice of this subject. Would go a long way in conjunction with the special effect size adjustment, in improving the "Final Fantasy" feel (large monsters, elaborate attacks, flashy skills, exploration of dungeons/ruins/towers/caves/volcanoes, challenging boss battles, an enemy force that makes you want to fight against them) of the game.

Quote:

---

All the skills are motion captured unlike XI, so maybe that might take a little longer than usual to implement (i'm not sure since I dont know how much work goes into organizing mocap sessions),

---

Iirc the way they handled it in XI was by dividing the character model into upper and lower section, so that while the upper section would perform an animation like hitting the monster, the lower section would be free to move around normally.

I don't know if it works here- but if it does, they should do it. While it may require some work to make it look natural, at least not a complete rework is necessary.

As for the quantity of animations, I have no problem with that, and would like to have less but smoother and better quality animations than tons of animations that are halfbaked and rushed. Particle effects can be as cool as they can get though. Actually, a different animation for white and black magic (as well as other forms of magic later on) wouldn't be too much asked, I think.

But imo getting the technical side up to the standards is most important right now.

Great post, agree with just about all your points. Just hope SE takes note :)

Agreed on all points except on #5
I don't have any issues with moving around in combat and I don't see anything unrealistic with the way the character jumps back and forth on some skills. Same for skills rooting you to the ground, it would be rather weird seeing a character glide over surface while thrusting a spear or something.

Obviously the animation would have you running while thrusting the spear. Lack of realism is not really a problem I wanted to convey either, functionality should not be sacrificed for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Obviously the animation would have you running while thrusting the spear. Lack of realism is not really a problem I wanted to convey either, functionality should not be sacrificed for it.

---

Well with the way they did the animations, they would have to motion capture new animations for every situation, i just don't see this happening, but who knows. As long as it's not sliding over the ground, it's fine. I still say jumping back/forward is as it should be (on Pugilist, you jump forward using normal strike to go offensive mode and jump backward on light strike to go defensive mode, which, to me, makes sense)

The only problem with jumping forward/backwards is that it is very hard to make the transition between actions smooth if your character is not standing in the default spot where actions take place.

I agree with the majority of your post. I don't personally have a problem with #4 however. I feel I move just fine in battle the way it is. It could use some tweaking for faster side to side movement, but moving backwards just as fast as you run forward wouldn't make much sense. It is a little too slow however so perhaps they can tweak it a little. The stopping animation honestly hasn't effected me in battle either, but I wouldn't care if it was removed.

Personally I feel the bigger issue with fighting groups is more due to the still horrible targeting system and less about the movements. For the most part grouped mobs are pretty close to each other.

The sounds of certain skill and magic impacts (provoke, thunder, trunksplitter, and others) could stand to be made stronger as well. When you provoke something, there should be a large effect signifying that enemy is provoked towards you (already happening with the size update) but there should also be a strong noise accompanying the effect. Think back to XI's provoke. Whenever a warrior or paladin used it, everyone around them would know they used provoke due to the size of the effect and sound.

Quote:

---

It could use some tweaking for faster side to side movement, but moving backwards just as fast as you run forward wouldn't make much sense. It is a little too slow however so perhaps they can tweak it a little.

---

You make a good point there. Perhaps they should only remove the movement speed penalty and see if that is enough.

Strafing improvements sound like a good addition as well.

Quote:

---

but there should also be a strong noise accompanying the effect.

---

I think I can agree with this, but it may also have a potential side effect of people getting annoyed due to hearing the sound over and over again. They gotta be careful with this one.

Sound effects are more important than people might think. Especially if you're a healer. Sometimes it's hard to tell just by animation or the battle log what spells are being cast or abilities being used. In FFXI I could hear if someone got poisoned, silenced, petrified etc.

It's incredibly helpful, if not vital, to have distinct sound effects.

Also, I just want to congratulate you on a thread well made. This is a great example of the way people should forward complaints about the game. I agree with everything!

You make good points, and now that I think about it, enfeebles in XI had a distinct sound effect to them. I will add it to the OP.

Yeah, the poison spell in XI had a great sizzle sound effect, and actually lingered for a few seconds. I know the spell impact effects have to be pretty fast, since it's an MMO and no one wants a battle system to be too slow do to visual effects, but there is a fine line between the two.

I've got a feeling we'll see a letter sometime this week, and hoping a patch to go along with it, since we're about half-way through April.

The letters tend to come every two weeks, yes.

This doesn't need a [dev] tag does it?

Its got the dev tag in the "Tags for this thread" section, so I guess that'll work.

Yes, you don't need the [dev xxxx] in the thread title, the devtag in the thread tags is all you need.