Perykos and Thalaos

Last night, during the second March of the Lalafells, Fusionx and Doctor Mog asked about Thalaos, the gigantic new dragon skeleton out in La Noscea.

http://www.gameranx.com/img/12-Aug/ff3.JPG

Actually, I believe Mog's words were,
"Get your lore people on that."

Well, here I am!

It turns out that this serpentine skeleton isn't new at all. It was just once much more buried than this... deep in the caverns of Cassiopeia Hollow.

http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/...psebe7ed8f.jpg

The real question is... if that's Thalaos... where's Perykos?

And were they the same species, so to speak, as the Lominsan Sea Serpent seen in Version 1's main scenario, rumored to be created by The Twelve, similar to Midgardsormr, to guard something of great importance?

The sea serpent, not to be confused with Leviathan, appears to be guarding the relic that was found by Sthalmann and his gang.

Of course, when the pirates heard about the "treasure of Seal rock" they were hoping that it was a treasure, to quote Balthier, "that they could measure."

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Lyngsath: Whoa. Slow down, m'lady.

Lyngsath: Did ye just say ye was attacked by a bleedin' sea serpent!?

Y'shtola: By “sea serpent,” do you mean the mythological creature frequently documented in Limsa Lominsa's historic records?

Lyngsath: There ain't a sprat for malms who couldn't tell ye that bedtime story: of the fearsome beastie what crushes ships in 'is mighty maw, 'n' swallows 'ole crews in a single gulp...

Lyngsath: 'Ang about... Story goes that the creature guards a mountain o' gold 'n' diamonds, and that whoever finds it...gets to rule the seas for all 'is days.

Lyngsath: Treasure...like the kind what's rumored to be 'idden up on that Seal Rock!

Y'shtola: And so myth becomes reality...

Y'shtola: Perhaps, it is already begun...

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Of course Y'shtola isn't talking about gold and jewels.

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Y'shtola: And while I am in a giving mood, let me enlighten you as to another fascinating fact: they are not here to exchange pleasantries. They have come for you, Emerick...or should I say for that “treasure” you found on Seal Rock. If you would not have what little remains of your pathetic life foreshortened, I strongly recommend that you cast the relic back into the abyss whence it came.

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Of course right after that the Sea Serpent shows up again. Because the "treasure" was promptly snatched by the Ascians, the sea creature continued its assaults.

I thought that the Sea Serpent in the original cutscenes was dead, but I can't seem to find where I saw that... Maybe I imagined it and it's still alive? I don't believe it is the same Serpent created by Llymlaen because it was sealed away in Seal Rock and this beast was not sealed obviously. lol

I doubt they're the same serpent; in the end, Sthalmann claimed that it was "driven back into the deep" by throwing away the tablet (though, I suspect some, if not all, of that assessment was part of his ruse, considering Baderon credited the pirates for driving it back). It's always worth asking what's related, though; mostly because you want falsification.

Remember, the sea serpent has a lot in common with Leviathan (down to the red tint on the edges of their fins), and yet had similar physiology to Midgardsormr (discounting skin texture and skull shape). As far as we know, the three are completely unrelated (though there may be between the nameless Sea Serpent and Midgardsormr, being that this is based on Greece, Greek dragons were enormous serpents, and Midgardsormr is a confirmed Dragon King).

Whatever the case, I do find these serpent skeletons pretty interesting.

Darn, I have no idea what either of you are talking about, and yet I am very, very fascinated...

/chews on popcorn even though he doesn't like it

Do go on.

/is secretly ashamed of the uselessness of this post

/burp

:cool:

During the march, I dropped what I knew and Fusionx read it out. I'll try and be more detailed here.

Going off memory here...

As the myth goes, the great sea serpent is of similar age as Midgardsomr. Much like Midgardsomr was created with a purpose - protecting Silvertear - so was this serpent. Llymlaen (it may have been Nymeia if my memory is off) tasked it with creating the oceans. And so from it sprung forth great quantities of water. But as the oceans filled, she realised it would not stop. And so she bound it to Seal Rock and hid the island, to prevent sea swallowing all.

Of course myth is very different to reality, but is based on significance. So we don't know everything about that Serpent, much like we don't know everything we would like to about Midgardsomr. (eg: what is the significance for Ishgardian religion of a being supposedly created with the world being able to call forth the realm's dragons to protect it.)

But here is my question for Moose: What is your source on the names Perykos and Thalaos? Are you going off Greek mythology, or is there text I missed in-game?

I was also never aware of the skelleton in Cassiopeia Hollow (will we see it in an instanced dungeon?). I was assuming the skelleton we walked on was the remains of a defeated serpent from fifteen years prior, given how geologically exposed it is. Of course, I could easily be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

What is your source on the names Perykos and Thalaos?

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Cartography can save your life! (check the far-western chamber's name)

http://www.ffxivinfo.com/images/maps...eia-hollow.jpg

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Originally Posted by Catapult

I was assuming the skelleton we walked on was the remains of a defeated serpent from fifteen years prior, given how geologically exposed it is. Of course, I could easily be wrong.

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I think that's going to be a common assumption to make - though, no one in the game ever credits the beast with being defeated, only driven back. This is actually the only thing Baderon's and Sthalmann's account of the events have in common.

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Originally Posted by Baderon

Well, if ye be 'ells-bent on knowin' what 'appened th' last time that grisly beast reared 'is accursed 'ead, I suggest ye speak t' some o' the pirates what 'elped drive 'im back.

Legends Adrift

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Originally Posted by Sthalmann

The mission was a success. The serpent has been driven back into the depths. <Reyner declares it a victory for the Knights of the Barracuda> Perhaps, if you consider tossing that accursed tablet back into the sea a victory.

Never the Twain Shall Meet

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Now, we still don't know when these events took place, but Midgardsormr was defeated in 1562 and he's still not entirely decomposed. This one is fully decomposed and buried in rock, so my money is on that he's pretty old.

Being between betas, I can't check myself, but does anyone know where in La Noscea the "new dragon skeleton" is? Does it match up with where Cassiopeia Hallow was? Based off my memory, the new skeleton is also a lot bigger than the one from Cassiopeia Hallow? This leads me to think they are different serpents, though they could be similar or same species. If there are two different names (Thalaos/Perykos), an easy assumption could be these are the two serpents.

Size wise, the new skeleton seems to fit the Serpent from Limsa's opening, but yeah the fact it's in rock, is already a skeleton and bridges/stairs are built on it post Bahamut, I doubt it's anything that was alive in Version 1.

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Originally Posted by KaMuiSouZou

Does it match up with where Cassiopeia Hallow was?

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Kind of. A lot has changed in the area. If you look at where Wineport is now and compare it to where it was then, combined with the fact that the entrance to the Hollow brought it Northwest of Bloodshore towards Wineport, depending on how big the Hollow was, how big our new lake is (Notice that Bronze Lake marker is way off to the east), and at which direction the pathways of old and new converge, Thalaos of today could end up being exactly where he was in Cassiopeia Hollow, or pretty far from it depending on the scale. The best answer I can give it you is, "It's in the ballpark."

But you know what Catapult's going to say. {/puts on his counterfeit geology hat} It was once buried and now it's in the open. There's ditches where there was once camps. There's water where there was once... not-on-the-map-but-with-no-water-in-it. Crystalline aetheric monstrosities have torn the ground asunder and ruptured it in every direction. Who's to say a chunk of earth couldn't have been pushed a few football fields over, if that's what the distance would have been? Hell, the Longstop found its way in there somewhere.

The Thalaos skeleton is very far from where Cassiopeia Hallow and Camp Bloodshore would be. It'd be one heck of a geological movement.

http://www.ffxivmaps.com/img/region-la_noscea-large.png

http://www.xivdb.com/?maps/34/s1f5-0...pper-La-Noscea

So the Thalaos skeleton is to the west of the actual Bronze Lake. That's a huge distance for it to have migrated underground and end up resting up on a ledge. While the area of Camp Bronze Lake in 1.0 was very hilly, so it'd be reasonable enough for a layer of the hill to be removed and a skeleton to protrude. But I don't think it'd be likely to move from underground in Cassiopeia Hallow across very hilly and rocky land to end up resting well above where it had been.

Geese, these guys are getting to know me...

TBH, I'm more worried about the gemstones than this. It's the little things that are the big giveaways.
The mineralogy of the deeper Copperbell Mines is currently bugging the hell out of me.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

I doubt they're the same serpent; in the end, Sthalmann claimed that it was "driven back into the deep" by throwing away the tablet (though, I suspect some, if not all, of that assessment was part of his ruse, considering Baderon credited the pirates for driving it back). It's always worth asking what's related, though; mostly because you want falsification.

Remember, the sea serpent has a lot in common with Leviathan (down to the red tint on the edges of their fins), and yet had similar physiology to Midgardsormr (discounting skin texture and skull shape). As far as we know, the three are completely unrelated (though there may be between the nameless Sea Serpent and Midgardsormr, being that this is based on Greece, Greek dragons were enormous serpents, and Midgardsormr is a confirmed Dragon King).

Whatever the case, I do find these serpent skeletons pretty interesting.

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You know... I'm willing to bet that the Sea Serpent is Jörmungandr. In the end, Jörmungandr is another version of the Midgardsormr, but it's a sea serpent first and foremost. Being a Sea Serpent makes more sense for Jörmungandr than a Glacier Wyrm. He's also surrounding (and terrorizing) a city like in myth. I remember when I started XIV back in the original alpha... I quickly decided the Serpent wasn't Leviathan because the mouth just didn't match Leviathan. It's too barracuda like. Anyway... According to Myth, Jörmungandr was supposed to have grown so large in encircled the earth... and the Serpent is presumably larger than Leviathan. I would make the assumption Leviathan isn't much bigger than the average primal, and he could probably fit on the old boat. The Serpent is clearly larger than the boat... kinda like a certain serpent said to encircle the world, right?

Those are my predictions, anyway.

Heeeey..I have an idea. Random, derailing, sorry. But still!

Could someone who is possibly a little more photo-editing inclined than myself take the new maps and superimpose them over the old map/region areas, so we can infact see if things are still in the same geographical areas, if things were shifted massively one way or another, or if they just completely lifted and resat some locations to somewhere else they would otherwise prefer? Just by roaming the areas and going by memory of the former maps things appear to be somewhat still in the general same directions. Just an idea anyways.

As for the serpent discussion - I saw that thing while exploring. Didn't realize what it was at first, I saw what appeared to be bone fins or something and dropped down, did a 180 and came face to face with this massive skull..sat back going..wtf. lol

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Originally Posted by Lusavari

You know... I'm willing to bet that the Sea Serpent is Jörmungandr. In the end, Jörmungandr is another version of the Midgardsormr, but it's a sea serpent first and foremost. Being a Sea Serpent makes more sense for Jörmungandr than a Glacier Wyrm. He's also surrounding (and terrorizing) a city like in myth. I remember when I started XIV back in the original alpha... I quickly decided the Serpent wasn't Leviathan because the mouth just didn't match Leviathan. It's too barracuda like. Anyway... According to Myth, Jörmungandr was supposed to have grown so large in encircled the earth... and the Serpent is presumably larger than Leviathan. I would make the assumption Leviathan isn't much bigger than the average primal, and he could probably fit on the old boat. The Serpent is clearly larger than the boat... kinda like a certain serpent said to encircle the world, right?

Those are my predictions, anyway.

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Honestly, I believe your theory could be valid. Primals are the 'gods' of the Beastmen but they arent really all that terrifyingly massive. Ifrit is fairly large, yes, but Garuda really isnt, Mog really wasnt either. I dont likely see Ramuh, Shiva or even Leviathan being enormous creatures. (the FATE event one's may be large in comparison to arena style battles, to compensate for mass players swarming one location). So these other serpants being Guardians and thus far larger than Primals is much more feasible and likely. Question is though, what would a Guardian be protecting under the ocean?

When the Great Flood happened to Eorzea back in the day, what brought it on?

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Originally Posted by Akujin

Could someone who is possibly a little more photo-editing inclined than myself take the new maps and superimpose them over the old map/region areas, so we can infact see if things are still in the same geographical areas, if things were shifted massively one way or another, or if they just completely lifted and resat some locations to somewhere else they would otherwise prefer?

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It started out as one and turned into the other, as far as I can tell. The concept art maps can be laid right over the previous maps and, even though they look very different, they can be lined up perfectly. The maps that were designed based on those concepts, not so much (again, as far as I can tell).

Yeah... I wouldn't want to try photoshopping the old and new in-game maps together.

The whole point of re-doing the scenery was because of the messed up copy-pasta landscape in the first place. I say let sleeping dogs lie.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Geese, these guys are getting to know me...

TBH, I'm more worried about the gemstones than this. It's the little things that are the big giveaways.
The mineralogy of the deeper Copperbell Mines is currently bugging the hell out of me.

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If the geology's bugging you, you're lucky you're not into flora. You'd throw the whole game out the window!

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

If the geology's bugging you, you're lucky you're not into flora. You'd throw the whole game out the window!

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True, dat. I'd go insane.