Hi, lore forum! I was reading the Loremonger post on Gridania's 1.0 starting quests yesterday (I know the site says it's not fully polished but i really wanted to read it D: ) and even though I've played through its quests several times on several characters, there are still some things I'm not a hundred percent sure about and want to make sure I know before we get an entirely new Gridanian starting scenario on our hands. I hope these don't sound stupid; i just really want to make sure I know what I'm talking about:
-So reading through the Loremonger posts and going through dialogue in non-Echo situations, a lot of the NPCs (namely E-Sumi and maybe Dunstan) still mention Fye as if she were a little kid, or that she's still looking for Dunstan in the present time. I think even the present-time kids talk about her, too? So...why is that? Are they saying that Fye was doing the same thing in the present that she was in the past without your Echo's interference? And that we're actually doing the same for Fye in the present as we are in the past--except for some reason we don't see her in any adult form in the present like we do with Khrimm? (or maybe we do and just haven't figured out who yet?)
-What is the true nature of a wildling? Do they actually exist, or is that solely the term the higher-ups of Gridania use for their secret little anti-Garlean force they plan to use for war (I think that's what it is according to Papalymo and Yda in one of the later quests? correct me if i'm wrong) consisting of Dunstan and Khrimm's parents? I think there was some mention of a "real" wildling in the posts with reference to the Conjurer class quests, but I wasn't able to finish those in time before the servers closed so I'm not sure...if they're real, though, how can you tell someone's a wildling? Just that they have a ton of woodsin on them?
-So...by the end of the story, we set things right with Fye, Khrimm and Dunstan in the past, making it so she knew what to do to save him ten years ago-ish. Does that mean Fye wouldn't be living in the wood with Hermit!Khrimm anymore because we changed the past? But if that's true, why is it that in the present, the Hermit doesn't reflect that and still doesn't believe in the Elementals after what they did to him?
-Going off of the last set of questions, because we were able to impact the past, we had that big headache after the echo-in-an-echo thing. Was it only because echoing in an echo is really fatiguing to those who have the echo, or is it also because (according to the loremonger) we created a sort of alternate universe that includes us in the past and the present has to adjust to that alternate universe?
-And this is more speculation than anything since I don't think there was any explicit reason stated in the game, but why is it that Gridania wants to hide the fact that they're preparing for war with the Empire through the wildling conspiracy? Even Miounne wasn't aware of it at the start, and she knows pretty much everything there is to know about the city-state. Is it just because the Seedseers/Stillglade Fane are generally pacifists and just don't want people to know, or could there be another underlying reason?
i hope those questions weren't too oddly-worded...if they are let me know and i'll try to rephrase them. :D thanks to anyone who helps out!
Gridania 1.0 Story Questions
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05-04-2013, 02:36 AMFleuretteGridania 1.0 Story Questions
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05-04-2013, 06:10 AMAnonymoose
<rolls out a red carpet and sets up a chair with the name, CATAPULT stenciled into the back> -
05-04-2013, 06:18 AMFleuretteoh, boy! i didn't know catapult was a lore-buddy and movie star, too! :DQuote:
<rolls out a red carpet and sets up a chair with the name, CATAPULT stenciled into the back>
http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net...661881e7de.gif -
05-04-2013, 02:08 PMCatapultQuote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
<Waltzes on in casually, drops into the chair, begins sipping at a glass of white wine.>
So, let's see what we have here...
This isn't put to us very explicitly, but we can infer some conclusions. Here are some exceptsQuote:
Originally Posted by Fleurette
Nicoliaux: Oh, look! It's <your name here>.
Sansa: <Your name here> saw a moogle in the forest. It asked him to give a message to Fye.
Ryd: Really!?
Sansa: I see her in the forest sometimes, too. And I hear the grownups talking about her. They say Fye is sad because the elementals are real.
Pudgy Moogle: But there's more. The elementals have something to ask of you, as well.
Pudgy Moogle: Tell the Hyur girl, the one named Fye, to stop wandering the wood, kupo.
I get the feeling that Fye is no longer living in Gridania and has also become a hermit of sorts, albeit for reasons different to Khrimm. She's not a wildling and the elementals seem to wish her no harm. I get the feeling she is suffering from long-term depression that has developed into a significant mental health issue.
Keep in mind this is all in the context of her having not seen Dunstan at the Grand Rite - my theory on the alteration of history really messes with this interpretation after the fact. I'm hoping a little more of this gets cleared up in ARR because, as you have discerned, we haven't been able to find an adult Fye in the game so far (female midlander with crimson eyes and charcoal hair - yes, I went looking).
What a wildling is and what they are considered to be by Gridanian society are indeed two different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleurette
Dunstan, Sigurdh and Oona seem to be labeled as wildlings for political convenience, so that the population stays away from them and they can go about their "mission".
A real wildling is Brother Morys of the Conjurer quest line. As a child, he angered the elementals something horrid and was taken by them. The elementals consider him their property, brainwashed him and if he tries to leave the forest great elementals start coming out from everywhere to drag him back kicking and screaming. Instead, he serves as a hearer for Stillglade Fane, which is a medium of communication between the elementals and the citizens of Gridania. Yep, he's a bonafide tool.
Wildlings seem to be feared by the populace because in order to become one, you have to have done something seriously nasty to piss the elementals off really badly. And the elementals also have this habit of considering bystanders to be just as guilty of a crime as the one that committed it - woodsin rubs off on the people around them. The gut reaction is thus to keep away from those tainted wildlings so it doesn't affect you. But of course it is more complicated than that. This is why Morys' status as a wildling is not public knowledge - to prevent panic breaking out.
((I'm sure Ferne will correct me if I've gotten anything mixed up here, either with a post in this thread or an in-game quest, preferably the latter.))
Welcome to the history-changing theory that isn't properly understood. Ferne has articulated that we can interact with history but cannot change the outcome of anything important. Khrimm is still a hermit of the wood, though his reasons may have changed. It may be that Fye still has to be wandering the wood, but no longer in the search for her brother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleurette
Unless of course the whole mind-splitting headache was history saying "nuh-uh! You can't do that. Get out!"
So many unanswered questions that hopefully ARR will clear up, but for now I'm going on the assumption that people's reasons for being where they are has changed even if their physical circumstances have not.
We can't be sure. I would like to think the headache is because history has hit a point where the memories of a great many people, and perhaps even the consequences of their actions, have to re-align themselves. ...or it could be any number of other things outside my theory. This is why it is all in the "speculative analysis" page.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleurette
I just had a mental image of Nymia having a emotional fit about how her needle broke.
Ohoho! Ok, the assumption is that Sigurdh & co. are planning to use unconventional methods against the Garleans (or whatever else is considered a threat). They are described as staying in ruins to the north, which are probably the Gelmorran ruins. What we know about Gelmorra is that their civilisation pre-dates Gridania and probably also their pact with the elementals. If they were planning on using Gelmorran methods, that might be awkward for Gridanians to accept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleurette
Or, they could be intending to incite the rage of the elementals against the garleans. There was a conjurer at Nophica's altar who told us that many rites are designed to calm the elementals, but there were supposedly once rites designed to enrage them - whatever could those be useful for?
Miounne: The conjurers teach us that elementals of the Twelveswood are not instruments of war, and no attempt shall be made to use them as such against the Empire.
Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Sigurdh and Oona may not be wildlings, but they may be risking becoming ones in attempts to turn Garleans into wildlings. Dangerous stuff and definitely NOT socially acceptable. -
05-05-2013, 09:40 AMFleurette
Ahh, thank you so much, Catapult! :D That helped clarfiy a lot; I really appreciate your answer!
This entire answer was really interesting to me; the fact that Gridania might be preparing to turn enemies into wildings secretly or anger the elementals on purpose turns the entire concept of the peace-loving Gridanians on its head. I actually hope they continue with that story should the empire make its presence and they start conflicting with Gridania in ARR; there's a lot of potential in it. (I mean if footage from the producer letter live showed that the imperials have already set up bases in Thanalan then there's most likely some kind of imperial presence somewhere in the Twelveswood and maybe we just haven't seen it yet?) I could see some kind of conflict within Stillglade Fane where a bunch of them want to use the elementals for war, but maybe the Seedseers and the Order of the Twin Adder don't want to and all kinds of crazy stuff could happen within the Gridanian hierarchies.Quote:
Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Sigurdh and Oona may not be wildlings, but they may be risking becoming ones in attempts to turn Garleans into wildlings. Dangerous stuff and definitely NOT socially acceptable.
but obviously that's all speculation and my guess is they'll probably forget that subplot even existed. i guess we'll find out soon enough. :P
but thank you again! I really wish I could contribute as much to these forums as you and the regulars do, but I dunno if I could ever even contain the crazy amounts of lore that you guys can...if there's anything i can do to help you guys with my little knowledge, though, I'd love to help out, so I'll keep on watching the forum as more stuff comes up! ^^ -
05-05-2013, 11:47 AMEnkidohThe thing is, from all the information stated in the game I never actually thought that would indeed be the case - the fact that the Gridanians regard wildlings as monsters, the very idea of actually creating them would seem perverse to them. Sigurdh and Oona seemed to be leading some kind of secret resistance movement against the Garleans (it was even stated that they fought against the Garlean invasion of Ala Mihgo, and that all that bloodshed was the cause of their 'change' into wildlings) - it's probable that because they were acting outside Gridania's government, they were therefore regarded as heretics and exiles as their very existence in the forest was without the elementals' consent (it's why they all abandoned Khrimm to his fate when he torched the Hedgetree).Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapult
They could have even been throwing in their lot with the 'other' Ala Mihgan Resistance shown later in the Path of the Twelve storyline (who were stated as having agents based in the three citystates), assisting them with information and provisions.
In any event, their motives weren't really obvious - all Oona mentioned was that 'their mission was far too important' to return, and even though Yda and Papalymo reveal to E-Sumi-Yan that "Gridania intends to wage war against the Empire", the CNJ Guildmaster just kinds of shrugs and just says that he'll answer their questions after the festival.
And besides, even if the plan was to lure the Garleans into a arboreal trap, as the Path of the Twelve quests showed, the Empire had little trouble storming though the East Shroud to Moonspore Grove and slaughtering the slyphs, with not a peep from the elementals. It just seems to me that the forest isn't as nearly a powerful force as the Gridanians believed it to be. -
05-05-2013, 06:33 PMCatapult
All plausible positions, Enkidoh. The lack of clarity is the reason I didn't go into it much on Loremonger.
Personally, I believe that Sigurdh and Oona were indeed trying to lure the Garleans into wakening the greenwrath, but things didn't work out as well as they would have liked, probably because they didn't take the Garleans seriously enough. The circle of knowing certainly understands that to prevail, the city-states would need to throw absolutely everything they have at the situation and that the continuation of normal life for most of the populace is a pipe dream.
The first time we see Kan-E-Senna, it is in an echo belonging to Raya-O-Senna. In it, she is calming the wood following the killing of a number of the "great ones" - senior elementals that administer the law of the wood and dominate their will. To the seedseers, this is serious business, because they are not easily felled, at least not by simple mundane means. Something sinister is at play. It is what convinces her to return to the city to oversee a war effort, because it has become clear that they really need to pull out all stops against what is going on. -
05-23-2013, 12:16 AMSoukyuu
In the part before the rite when we double jump the echo, o-app introduces us to Dunstan, and it's not within the Echo. It also seems he is wearing the same mask that will be used in the rite and that he actually will be present in the purifying rite of the present, not the past. But then we seem him participating in the past as well - so did the rite not work at that time? Khrimm was purified but Dunstan had to leave again?
And a bit before that it sounds like both Fye and Dunstan are still wandering the forest... @_@ -
05-23-2013, 05:39 PMCatapultWelcome to my paradox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soukyuu
If we do indeed resolve the grand rite as successful in making Dunstan safe and encountering Fye, the reasons for people being where they are and doing what they are doing dissipate. How does history handle this? We don't know yet, but we DID get tossed out of that echo rather violently, didn't we? -
05-24-2013, 04:10 AMSoukyuuAre you implying we tried to mess with the past and got "a slap on the wrist"? ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Catapult
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05-24-2013, 12:35 PMCatapultMaybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soukyuu
Or, alternatively, we got kicked out because causality needed some space to itself while it restructured the lives of half the people in the Twelveswood. -
05-31-2013, 01:08 PMEnkidoh
Well, the thing is, I think we need to finally let go of the concept of the Echo being the 'past' - everything that has been stated (in 1.0 and by Ferne) shows pretty conclusively that it's not, at least, not the literal, physical past. Lets not mince words - viewing the Echo is nothing but a highly lucid day dream - the player is seeing themselves projected into someone else's memories, hence the explanation for all the weird things that happen to the player during the Echo.
The player is not stepping literally back in time, their body is remaining physically in the 'present' while their mind simply views someone else's memories from an earlier time - this is what Minfilla tells us and, when you let go of the idea it is literal time-travelling, does make perfect sense- why else did the elezen say to Derplander in the original opening "Look who's returned from his reverie?" when he jumps out of the Echo? He was still there in the Adventurer's Guild in Limsa Lominsa during his little sojurn to Mor Dhona, just utterly unresponsive and entranced while holding the guildleve.
Hence, in my opinion, the 'Echo within an Echo' is simply an extension of this - it's just how the Echo viewed a person's memories - in most likelihood it was jumping from one person's memories to another (this would also explain why in the Gridanian one how Yda and Papalymo came along - the player jumped into one of their memories to do so). And ultimately, all that Echo jumping probably caused such immense strain on the player's mind/brain, it forcibly ejected them from the Echo completely as a 'fail safe' to prevent further harm to them (hence why they collapse within it and then wake up back at the Inn Room).
Or maybe I'm grasping at straws here. :p -
05-31-2013, 05:42 PMCatapult
The bit about not leaving your place in the present certainly fits, but if it just a daydream there wouldn't be other consequences in the people around you and how they treat you.
If you aren't doing something to history, why would O-App-Pesi trust you as a friend of Fye? -
05-31-2013, 10:03 PMMjollnirI maintain that when you use the Echo when you're within the Echo, you are in fact creating the very first Echo, chronologically. You create a rift, a tear if you will, in the space-time continuum at that point (manifested visually by the starshower). The creation of the rift itself is so reality-warping that, as the universe tries to correct itself, you're thrown back to whence you came. Anyone blessed with the power of the Echo sees an Echo of that starshower event whenever they first Echo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
/em Echoes back to the Echo thread