NOTE: Please read the entire post before commenting, if you're just going to read and leave a post like "We don't need an AH" or "Wards are fine as is" without giving any reasons or constructive criticism please don't bother.
In some of his old "Letter from the producer" entries Yoshida has talked about adding an Auction House, while I don't want an exactly copy/paste of the XI AH I do believe a new system to buy/sell stuff is needed since the wards suffer from 2 major flaws that will be it's undoing later down the road:
1. Market wards are not linked together
-As it currently stands Ul'Dah is the only real place to find stuff, whatever is left of Limsa is slowly disappearing and Gridania is a ghost town. Because of this their wards are very empty, making it difficult for new players that start up in those cities to find stuff. So if Yoshida wants to help make this game more appealing to new players this is one area that needs to be touched up on without a doubt.
2. Retainer limit per wards
-Currently on Trabia the middle tailors row hitting it's limit for retainers is fairly common. I'm not sure how it is on other servers but if this is happening in this low of a population it doesn't take a lot of foresight to see this being a huge issue later on when the game population picks up and the PS3 version is released. While it is true SE could just expand the wards that would be a double edged sword since while it would give the wards more room for retainers it'd make finding your retainer or retainer selling what you want more time consuming. And if the game picks up more you'd have to expand again, so because of this I believe it's best to just do away with the wards.
These are minor annoyances that I'm also trying to address, while not something major they're annoyances that we can do without:
1. Restocking/Transferring to retainer
-With the lag between exchanging items and having to keep transferring menus to exchange/sell items it is a bit annoying.
2. Entering/running from ward to ward for your items
-Same as above, more of an annoyance than anything.
3. Lack of showing HQ items
-For most people it won't matter, but if you're trying to HQ something it can be annoying not knowing if there are any HQ mats up. While you can try for a price difference it's still something that should be addressed.
4. No alert when your wares sell
-More of a request than anything.
Side Note:, my idea would do away with all reatiners, so this would also mean they'd have to add a storage/mailbox system, but that's for another topic.
Like I said, I don't want an XI AH, but let's still call it an AH for simplicity.
Currently I like the UI of the wards and how they show the actual price instead of the price history, however I want it to be more convenient like the Auction House in XI in terms of buying/selling by only having to go through menus. So I do believe that taking those two things into consideration with some minor tweeks would make a good system.
Anyway here's a quick example of my idea:
Buying
Lets say I'm trying to HQ a weapon and want to make my synth attempt as much of a success as possible, that means I'd want as many HQ materials as I can get. So let's say I'm trying to find a Maple Log +3
The first step is pretty easy, getting to the AH and opening the menu giving me the following choices:
Example: http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5503/mock1.pngQuote:
-Buy
-Sell
-Sales Status
-Exit
Obviously I want to select buy. This would open up the same menu that you'd find from the wards, so I'd go to Woodcutters then Logs.
So I find the Maple Log, but this is where it gets different. Instead of showing up the price history for everything regardless of it's quality it will open up a new menu showing how many people are selling each quality of the log, for example:
Example: http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/2365/mock2.pngQuote:
Maple Log x13
Maple Log +1 x7
Maple Log +2 x4
Maple Log +3 x2
As we see, 2 people are selling +3s, so when I select the Maple Log +3 this would bring me to a new menu showing how much they're being sold for as well as the quantity:
Example: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/9290/mock3.pngQuote:
Maple Log +3 x5 5000
Maple Log +3 x10 7500
Okay so we found the +3, now all we have to do is select it, chose how many we have to buy (In this case one assuming I HQ my first time), after which the game would process my request, take my gil, and give me the item I purchased. Without having to run anywhere.
Selling
Selling would be pretty similar to XI's system, except with a limit of 20 items (Current limit with 2 retainers). However I'd have to different methods to sell.
The first is pretty straight forward, when you're at the Buy/Sell menu you go to sell, select the item from your inventory, select that then the price and quantity.
The second is assuming you don't know what you want to sell it for and want to see the current prices people have set. Let's assuming in this case you want to sell a Maple Log +3, so you'd go back to the window showing the current prices for +3 Maple Logs, and at the bottom there would be a button that's active when if you have that item in your inventory and want to sell it. So instead of having to go through all those menus again you could just set the price/quantity of the item you want to sell from that window instead.
Example: http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/9290/mock3.png
Then for a new feature when your item(s) are bought a message would show up in your chat window notifying you of the purchase. The message would depend on the item could be stacked or not.
If your item didn't stack (Weapons, Armor, etc.) the following message would show up:
"Your Silver Tricorne has sold for 3,000,000 gil".
If it was an item that stacks (Materials mostly) it would tell you how many have sold, how much you got, and the remainder of that stack:
"33 of your 99 copper ore have been sold for 9900 gil".
When this is sold you'd have to go back to your mailbox for the gil obviously (Remember what I said earlier about this system needs a storage/mailbox system to work?)
Anyway, that's pretty much the basics of it. I'm going to try to make some mock up UIs later in Visual Basic 2010 to help show how the UI would be. I might expand on this more with a search filter for armor/weapons, however my current plan is to just set a foundation, get some more suggestions for it, then build up on it when it's pretty solid. Hope you guys like the idea.
[dev1018] New market system idea
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04-06-2011, 10:33 PMCorrderio[dev1018] New market system idea
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04-06-2011, 11:31 PMAnathiel
Alright, I like the system but I also like the idea of people trying to out bid each other. Its to the benefit of the seller really. You want that maple log +3? Well so does somebody else and whoever comes out on top of the bidding gets the item and the person selling it is also the beneficiary. We could leave in the price history but leave the price history as price paid, not price requested.
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04-07-2011, 03:32 PMCorrderio
Someone in General had an idea for tokens or something like that. However for the main system I think that would do more harm than good since would you really want to wait to see if you won a bid on a piece of equipment you'll replace 5 ranks or so later?
Also maybe I should have posted this in General, it would have been nothing but a wave of complaining for the most part however this place seems about as active as Gridania (Oh snap!). -
04-07-2011, 08:10 PMLienn
The new step at buying you suggest would be more than welcome. Really not sowing HQ versions sometimes just leave the idea that the player put a NQ item overpriced at retainer to save inventory space (or for retainer to wear a certain gear).
But your selling idea is kinda off IMO...unless you meant having a "history" button at sell item screen (this does would be nice since would keep the sales history one click away from setting a certain item price), it would need to be done from item search corner, which wouldn't be cool...it would need to scan retainers and all to find a certain item and to see if that retainer does have space for selling it. Also, i don't believe sales history will be added at ward since its exactly the point they wanted the MW for...to protect the economy from sales history manipulation/abuse.
About retainers telling you about sales, i asked them this already a while ago...it would be a nice thing too...they should chhange that "retainer list" option, which is useless right now, for a "retainer LS" option.The basic would be receiving a call from there (like they do with NPC LS, but using a different color) and allowing you to change/organize/restock baazars without having to go back to retainer since LS is supposed to work like a phone.
About DB, i'd love it being up, but not for purpose. I like retainers having their own currency...and if gil was sent to DB i foubt anyone would give retainers gil. And talking about this, i'd like to see a better way to use "buy item" option at retainers, like a textbox to enter an item name so you could seek items even iif you don't have it.
OFF-TOPIC: Comment my thread at "other" forum, Corrdy! ^^ Its the "[Suggestion] My House!". It also includes some new economy-related features, like DB and AH yadda yadda. ^^ I tried to think in a way for it to work properly without affecting MW at all, leaving AH and MW more like was the relationship od AH <=> Rolanberry Fields. -
04-07-2011, 09:52 PMAngryNixon
I've read your outline for a new "system for the buying and selling of items" (so nobody can say I called it an AH).
I agree with your points on things that could use improvement re: the current system. Those things would all undoubtedly be helpful.
With respect to your market system proposal I note that (a) it's good that your system includes a distinction between the HQ and regular items which is missing currently and whose addition can only be of benefit to everyone; and (b) that your system and many I have seen suggested otherwise suffer from the same flaw that the FFXI system had as did WoW's for that matter. The system only accounts for the preferences of the person selling an item. This creates a unilateral price history which contributes in some ways to many of the problems that were present in the old FFXI AH. It is also a reason why many who complain about the addition of an AH complain also specifically about the concept of a price history of some sort being implemented.
The system, to be dynamic, fair, and also properly reflect the fact that this is supposed to be a new generation of MMO, should properly reflect "buy" orders in the marketplace as well as "sell" orders.
You can see now in some limited fashion that the retainer area allows for three types of orders: Buy, Sell and Repair. That is one thing, conceptually speaking, that SE did well to include. While you can argue until you're blue in the face that practically speaking the implementation is very lacking (and it is and that's just fine), the idea of having these three types of orders properly and fully integrated into any market system is important and makes the system on the whole more robust. -
04-07-2011, 11:02 PMVeasnaI like the ideas outlined here a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrderio
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04-08-2011, 12:22 AMCorrderioThere wouldn't be a sales history in this system. The UI would bring up the items and the current asking price, once that item is sold out it wouldn't be shown anymore on the next search.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
Also my system would get rid of retainers and store your items your selling like the AH from XI. So you wouldn't pick a retainer or anything, only requirement you'd need is not to surpass the limit.
@AngryNixon :Thanks for the reminder, I should add a feature to allow us to repair gear as well.
I'll start working on the mock-up UIs this weekened. I can't promise when they'll be done since I haven't done a lot with VB for awhile. -
04-08-2011, 01:57 AMLienn
So you mean having the option of doing a search for current stock on sale of that item at sell item screen?
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04-08-2011, 02:29 AMNayliaI should be able to visit a desk with an NPC and inquire about goods available around the world. However I should have to pay a tax, duty, and/or delivery cost to have the goods imported to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrderio
I'd like to be able to exchange and place an item for sale directly without having to use multiple menus, and back in and out. If I can move something to my retainer's inventory, why can't I go one tab further and place it directly for sale. Reduce the steps needed here.Quote:
1. Restocking/Transferring to retainer
-With the lag between exchanging items and having to keep transferring menus to exchange/sell items it is a bit annoying.
If market wards were truly wards that had shops and stands and bazaars and such then it would make complete sense to walk around. The market ward functionality should be expanded such that I can purchase a permanent plot of land, expand it, invest in it, and crafting/synth support to it, etc. New players should have the ability to rent basic shops/stands for time periods also (and definitely for longer than 24 hours). Retainers should be like a shop keep that can be placed only at a stand or shop and not in the middle of the street. They should also be able to take orders against a price list (and provide a user provided eta for completion) - this would be great for crafters.Quote:
2. Entering/running from ward to ward for your items
-Same as above, more of an annoyance than anything.
Yes, we need to be able to easily search for HQ mats/finished goods.Quote:
3. Lack of showing HQ items
-For most people it won't matter, but if you're trying to HQ something it can be annoying not knowing if there are any HQ mats up. While you can try for a price difference it's still something that should be addressed.
Retainer linkpearl please! Let them communicate with us.Quote:
4. No alert when your wares sell
-More of a request than anything.
In general I'm not a fan of the rest of your idea for how to fix the market wards, because you have no vision for making shopping/repairs/trade be a living, breathing part of the game.
I think we should be able to purchase two types of property in this game, and these types of property should be tied to real districts in the city that can be walked around and explored and that dynamically change and improve as people upgrade their properties:
House - A personal space for me
- Interior can be decorated
- Items and furniture can be obtained that allow for storage of goods and general decoration
- Interior and exterior of building can be improved, etc...
Shop/Stand - A public space
- Allow me to set up a shop
- Decorate shop
- Place retainer at shop
- Purchase/quest for items that add synth support at my shop
- Allow me to set a price list of items I can make to order and expected delivery time
- Let me improve the property from a retainer behind a lemonade stand to a full size store/smithy/whatever
- Shop storage that can be purchased earned that lets me store mats there
- Display of finished goods that are actually my goods and not just some premade generic "shop" like current
- Imagine a display case/wall that showed all the wands you have for sale, or the various goldsmiths hammers you can make.
My advice: while what you propose would streamline shopping a little - it has no long term vision. If we want this game to be great, we need to encourage the dev team to think big and then execute flawlessly. Not take the approach that things should be reduced in scope or vision and streamlined to bare functionality. -
04-08-2011, 02:46 AMCorrderioOh I see what you mean now I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lienn
The sell button on the item's stock is just a shortcut of sorts. So you wouldn't have to look up the price of what you want to sell then have to backtrack all the way to the start to sell it. -
04-08-2011, 04:20 AMReikaThat price paid only listed thing is the only reason why I hated FFXI's AH. I dont want to have to guess the price >.> And if its like that, people will just set the price at the last price paid, and it will keep going up and up and up.... a maple log +3 that originaly sold for 1000gil could turn into 10000 gil, since it will only show a price paid, not requested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anathiel
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04-08-2011, 04:35 PMKilta_Firelotus
I just wish the wards were an open street market not a small dark room. Maybe better organize them a bit instead of randonly placing retainers on a floor. (the stuff i seen from the wars made me cry on how messy it looked) Personally I was hoping for an open air market area similar to stuff from the Anime "spice and wold" WHICH actually is in a similar theme to ff14.
Each retainer should automatically come with a stall vs renting one. Each stall will be randomly decorated with items your selling. (who that represent what your selling) And it will also come with a sign saying who own the retainer. (i like knowing who i'm buying from to) For the search you just type in keywords then tab a price range. Everyone wuth that item in that price rance will be stared. and just need to walk to the one you want. There could be 7 different levels or areas, and when you do a search will bring you one of the areas that item is selling in. (or you cab choose from a list if their are multiples. -
04-08-2011, 04:48 PMKilta_Firelotus
they could make this maket zone inter connected with all cities. And with in the market area. If absoluted needed have an Auction house area.
simple put you enter the market market zone via teleport. (maybe a similar design of a guildleve card but you see a stall. You enter a pretty shoping area and from here can enter any section from this area. each housing an outdoor area with retainer stalls. each enterance will have a counter where you can do an item search. you search for you item with a prince range, then just click one of the listen which teleports you to that floor its located on. (meaning each ward will have a few floors to limit over fulling. and if a floor gets full it will not be on the list) All you need to do is walk to the stall with the star over it.
the wards could either be organised by diciple, or just numbered. (since ppl will sell misc stuff) the opening section can be for personal bazaar to limit over crowding in the main cities. Broker npc can be placed in the back area. -
04-08-2011, 04:55 PMKilta_Firelotus
to place you retainer all you gotta do is go to the counter at the enterance to these smaller areas and click a place retainer. You pick a floor on the list, you get teleported to said floor and just ring the bell and place your retainer stall. each room floor can say fit 800 or more retainers. which can't be randomly places but places similar to how you placed mog house furnishings.
I hope this will make the areas neater less conjusted and easier to use. if not faster.
The auction how will be similar to ffxi but with a twist. Make it like a mog house where you enter your own personal zone where u can tallk to a broker who conects with the Auction house. (to limit that lag from ppl conjesting infront of the AH) (just a thought) -
04-08-2011, 10:12 PMCorrderio
Going to add the repair idea later today. I might work on the mockups later tonight to depending on what goes on.
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04-08-2011, 10:24 PMAngryNixon
This is just a short thought about what Kilta_Firelotus mentioned about a technical problem with the AH whereby people congest the area by crowding in front of the AH. The simple solution is to scatter it around. Make a few clearly marked access points throughout the cities so people aren't all forced to crowd to 1 spot in order to break up the load.
Accessing it from your mog house is also an option but as that would be a system built on top of another system neither of which exist I just thought the option of adding in multiple access points would allow for a solution that wasn't reliant on a different game system that is also sometime off on the dev. table. -
04-09-2011, 03:52 PMCorrderio
I never really took congestion into consideration, then again with low server popluations I'm not sure how big of an issue it would be.
Although yeah, I do like the idea to add multiple points to help reduce congestion.
I'm going to wait a bit on the repair idea since I'm trying to figure out a way to seperate reuquested repairs from gear that's being sold. -
04-10-2011, 01:55 AMAnathiel
congestion....maybe an issue 6 years ago with 2k people standing in one spot. I doubt it would be an issue with the bandwidth most people play on these days. but anyways, the multiple access points would be awesome. man, I really hope they put in the AH, it's so much easier to request custom made gear with a constant stream of crafters always hanging around the AH. we all just need to remember that an AH isn't just a place to buy and sell, it's also a social hub and hub for gathering people for quests. lol, afterall it is basically the town market.
I'm not sure if i posted it in this thread, but I really don't want to see the market wards removed, but just moved to the OP's and the small towns on the world maps. it would be great, after awhile certain towns would become player run as people went there to peddle their rare wares and do crafting. not too mention it would be great to pick up items on the fly before going into a dungeon or a few hour long sp grind. -
04-12-2011, 11:59 PMCorrderio
Sorry for not posting the UIs, I've been slowly working on them but XIV has been taking a decent chunk of my time since I'm trying to get CRP up as much as I can.
I'll try to get most of them up during the maintenance later this week. -
04-15-2011, 06:38 AMCorrderio
Okay got 3 quick mock ups done, they're on the OP, just look for the "Example" in blue, the URL will direct you to the pic.
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05-11-2011, 09:16 AMCorrderio
Shameless bump
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05-12-2011, 03:58 PMJangloThumbs Up!! This would be amazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naylia
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05-16-2011, 12:59 PMIlly
The fact of the matter is that pretty much everything mentioned in the OP will be addressed at some point and the current market wards system needs not be changed very much at all.
Fact is that while it's true the wards would need to grow and accommodate more retainers in the future it's also pointless to address that now. Why? Well because the game is if anything losing players and the problems for why it's losing players should be addressed first. Then once that is fixed and players start to come back into the game they can up the amount of usage the wards can handle. Doing it now is a wasted resource when the same people could be fixing other issues with the game that are FAR more important.
Increased usability(which pretty much means anything making it easier to find your item such as Key word search, showing +1, 2, 3 and so on and so forth) were already on the list of Yoshi-P's fixes and the reason we have not seen them yet is that the wards are more then suitable already for the vast majority of players and said players want REAL new content instead of nit picking wards functionality.
Bottom line is a AH in any form will probably never happen in the game(despite Yoshi-P saying it was a possibility) and the reason is that most of the players are happy with what we have now(I mean the wards are faster then the AH in FFXI it takes me less time to pick my item enter the wards and buy it then it does for the list to load in FFXI and then make a few bids before i finally get the item i want) not to mention the fact that regardless of buying and selling retainers are needed(they act as storage after all and even with two of them storage is still a bit of a issue so any new AH system that would eliminate the wards(and thereby eliminate them) is ever gonna happen.
The wards work. Any real problem with them is really nothing but nitpicking. They work for the needed purpose and can be changed and modified as needed instead of getting rid of them. It's not like they are gonna stay as they are now forever. They will be added to they will be tweaked and they will be made better. But I highly doubt they will ever be done away with for any other system no matter what it is.(If that does happen I will gladly eat my word but until then this is my stance)