Lore Questions: Why is Gridania's Flag Yellow, and What do the 'Twin Adders' Mean?

These two points have had me wondering even before 1.0's launch - the symbolism behind Gridania's national flag:

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...a_1-01_200.jpg

For a nation which places such importance in nature and the environment around them, the colours and design of the flag struck me as rather odd choices - yellow doesn't really come across as a 'natural' colour, other than that of the sun and sand, neither of which are really common in The Black Shroud. I would have thought green would have been more appropriate especially due to the fact the city itself is green all over.

Could the reason behind Gridania's flag being yellow and not green have had something to do with wanting to avoid player confusion with this flag (which also has a tree in it)?:

http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy...ndurstflag.jpg

It's the flag of the Federation of Windurst from FFXI in case you didn't know. ;)

As for the two snakes, what importance do they have? Is it some kind of metaphor for the elementals, or something else, more abstract? I've never been able to understand the whole reasoning behind the twin adders, especially as the other two main citystates (Ul'dah and Limsa Lominsa) have flags which have literal meanings (LL's with the longboat, showing they're a naval power, and Ul'dah's with the scales balancing a gemstone and a flame, symbolizing the importance they place on industry and trade).

In any event, as a loyal Gridanian I'm rather interested in finding out the lore reasons behind the adoption of the Gridania flag so I hope Ferne or someone on the development team could enlighten us as to this.

*lays offerings to the ahriman loregod* :D

too much greenish in the green forest. Yellow add contrast to it, is a matter of design choice if i'm not mistaken. Why Yellow? Snake can be yellow too, maybe is because of the Adder that yellow is a colour choice :)

Most of this is coming from memory, but I'll field what I can, being the resident Chief Serpent Loremonger Lieutenant.

The elements of the device can be considered representations of Gridania's socio-political infrastructure. The lotus flower represents Stillglade Fane, seat of the Conjurers who are the de-facto theocratic government of Gridania. They are protected by two entities:
- The Wood Wailers, who protect the citizenry of Gridania; and
- The God's Quiver, who protect the Twelveswood from external threats.
In this way, these two entities protectively wrap themselves around that which Gridania holds dear.

Additional fun facts:
- The council of Seedseers meet at the Lotus Stand.
- Ixal lore tells how Garuda became hungry for flesh only after she saved the Ixal from a cruel Serpent. (This lore is probably just as warped by the ages as that of the Twelve, but I'm guessing there is a connection here that associates the Ixal being cast out of Tinolqa with the establishment of Gridania.)

I suspect that among the zodiac associated with Heavensturn, the Year of the Snake represents the Year of Nophica, Gridania's patron, much like how the Rabbit represented Halone and the Dragon represented Althyk, creating a reverse rotation of the gods through the cycle of elements.

As to why yellow? I'm not entirely sure and this is entirely conjecture, but I think of yellow as the colour of the earth. Nophica's elemental affiliation is Astral Earth, so a bright yellow rather than a brown would be appropriate for her.
(Ice = light blue; Water = dark blue; Lightning = purple; Wind = green; Fire = red)


Edit: Making sure to distinguish the emblem from Windurst would have very likely been a design consideration to work with, but by no means the sole reason for this appearance.

This is the logo for the American Medical Association. Because I can. It doesn't have anything to do with the subject, but I'll leave it here anyway.

http://i.imgur.com/agkBzLR.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius

As for the snakes, they're paying tribute to a gridanian hero from the fourth umbral era:

Kurt Russell

http://i.imgur.com/IKanQix.png

Going outside the game to interpret the symbols.
The Lotus has long represented spiritual awareness and spiritual awakening, and as the lovely Auritribe has pointed out the twin snakes wrapped around a pole is a symbol of healing.
Considering that this Grand Company is located in the twelvewood where our woodsin needed to be healed, and our own spiritual awakening to the forest, I can see the symbol as fitting on that level.

edit: as Anonymoose pointed out below me.. its not twin snakes, but a single (originally copper) snake wrapped around a poll.

</em walks in, reads Catapult's summary, turns around and leaves, unneeded>

</em 's head pops back in>

Fun Fact: The Rod of Asclepius, the medical symbol, only has one snake. The two snakes with wings that you often see on medical things is a mistake. That's the Caduceus. The differences between what they mean can make their misuse hysterical at times.

I mean, you'd never see medical industries based on liars, thieves, and profit fo-... oh, wait.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

</em walks in, reads Catapult's summary, turns around and leaves, unneeded>

</em 's head pops back in>

Fun Fact: The Rod of Asclepius, the medical symbol, only has one snake. The two snakes with wings that you often see on medical things is a mistake. That's the Caduceus. The differences between what they mean can make their misuse hysterical at times.

I mean, you'd never see medical industries based on liars, thieves, and profit fo-... oh, wait.

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Yeah in hindsight it makes perfect sense.

Ey, Catapult:

You think Gridania comes from the Italian Gridare, meaning "to shout or cry?"

Wood Wailers?

Hmmmm....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce

too much greenish in the green forest. Yellow add contrast to it, is a matter of design choice if i'm not mistaken.

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This is the most likely choice for all three. An army's banner should be clear and visible against any background.

Thanalan has a lot of pale yellow colors (sand), so black contrasts nicely. Apart from that, Nald'thal (attributed to scales) is the dual-manifestation of life/wealth and death/virtue. Take wealth (gold) and death (black) and you have the Ul'dah flag!

Limsa Lominsa is a sea-faring nation, so the ship flag is obvious. That being said, there is a lot of green in La Noscea and blue on the sea, making Red stand out vibrantly. There are other things one can speculate, as well.
*It's not a trade city, but one of war and bloodshed. Blood is red.
*Limsa Lominsa is on the western edge of Vylbrand, which in turn is to the west of Aldenard. As the sun sets in the west, the sky (and maybe the reflective sea) might turn red.
*edit: Between Vylbrand and the Cieldalaes (islands) is the Rhotano Sea. "Rhot" in Roegadyn means "red", but there isn't a word "ano" or "tano" in the Roegadyn dictionary.

The ironic thing about yellow is that it's also a prominent color for toxicity and biohazards. Sure, some snakes are poisonous, but you'd think a nature loving community would avoid putting such things on their flag.

http://www.michelesbeauty.com/wp-con...1/04/toxic.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Fun Fact: The Rod of Asclepius, the medical symbol, only has one snake. The two snakes with wings that you often see on medical things is a mistake. That's the Caduceus. The differences between what they mean can make their misuse hysterical at times.

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This is exactly why I didn't mention it. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Ey, Catapult:

You think Gridania comes from the Italian Gridare, meaning "to shout or cry?"

Wood Wailers?

Hmmmm....

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I hadn't actually given that much thought. My instinct says the -ania is meant to be "land of" as in Romania, Lithuania or Oceania. Which would bring us to the meaning of "Grid-", which means network.

If we then take network in the "structured society" sense - as in planned agriculture to preserve a land where everything is linked (and the Gridanians are very concious about maintaining the order of nature) then we we may have a connection.

But that's just me going on a speculative ramble.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Most of this is coming from memory, but I'll field what I can, being the resident Chief Serpent Loremonger Lieutenant.

The elements of the device can be considered representations of Gridania's socio-political infrastructure. The lotus flower represents Stillglade Fane, seat of the Conjurers who are the de-facto theocratic government of Gridania. They are protected by two entities:
- The Wood Wailers, who protect the citizenry of Gridania; and
- The God's Quiver, who protect the Twelveswood from external threats.
In this way, these two entities protectively wrap themselves around that which Gridania holds dear.

Additional fun facts:
- The council of Seedseers meet at the Lotus Stand.
- Ixal lore tells how Garuda became hungry for flesh only after she saved the Ixal from a cruel Serpent. (This lore is probably just as warped by the ages as that of the Twelve, but I'm guessing there is a connection here that associates the Ixal being cast out of Tinolqa with the establishment of Gridania.)

I suspect that among the zodiac associated with Heavensturn, the Year of the Snake represents the Year of Nophica, Gridania's patron, much like how the Rabbit represented Halone and the Dragon represented Althyk, creating a reverse rotation of the gods through the cycle of elements.

As to why yellow? I'm not entirely sure and this is entirely conjecture, but I think of yellow as the colour of the earth. Nophica's elemental affiliation is Astral Earth, so a bright yellow rather than a brown would be appropriate for her.
(Ice = light blue; Water = dark blue; Lightning = purple; Wind = green; Fire = red)


Edit: Making sure to distinguish the emblem from Windurst would have very likely been a design consideration to work with, but by no means the sole reason for this appearance.

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This... totally agree with you Catapult, and thanks for perfectly suggesting the significance regarding the lotus and serpents. Also agree with the idea that Yellow was chosen because it is a spiritual colour relating to the Earth element.

Only thing I will add is that I think the triangular shape of the banner (which is the classic triangular shield shape) also emphasizes the ancient origins of the region. Triangular banners were one of the earliest styles of heraldry or flags (however, triangular shields or the "kite-shield" only came several centuries after the classic Greek circular Hoplons and the Roman rectangular Scutums)

And to the OP... awesome thread

Thanks for all the info guys and girls. You've provided a lot of ideas I hadn't even considered but which make perfect sense (such as yellow referencing earth which is Nophica's element).

Now all we need is a certain ahriman developer to pop in and completely blow our theories away with a lore bomb. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

They are protected by two entities:
- The Wood Wailers, who protect the citizenry of Gridania; and
- The God's Quiver, who protect the Twelveswood from external threats.
In this way, these two entities protectively wrap themselves around that which Gridania holds dear.

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Hey Catapult,

Thanks (as always) for taking the time to chime in to show off the nuggets you've gathered while panning for lore.

HOWEVER, the Ahriman Assayer (scribbles down idea for new monster name) cannot accept this particular nugget...as it is fool's gold.

Fun Fact: We just translated a quest last week which touches upon the Gridanian standard and the TRUE meaning behind the twin snakes. It actually originated fiv-- Uh... The loremaster's giving me the evil eye... I think I'll stop right here...

Sorry I can't divulge any further, but rest assured, more info is coming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

This is exactly why I didn't mention it. :P



I hadn't actually given that much thought. My instinct says the -ania is meant to be "land of" as in Romania, Lithuania or Oceania. Which would bring us to the meaning of "Grid-", which means network.

If we then take network in the "structured society" sense - as in planned agriculture to preserve a land where everything is linked (and the Gridanians are very concious about maintaining the order of nature) then we we may have a connection.

But that's just me going on a speculative ramble.

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Your explanation of Grid reminds me too much of Tron. I hope I don't get derezzed while I'm gathering!

I always figured it was a twisting of the word "Garden" and, as you mentioned above, tagged with "ania".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by auritribe

This is the logo for the American Medical Association. Because I can. It doesn't have anything to do with the subject, but I'll leave it here anyway.

http://i.imgur.com/agkBzLR.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by auritribe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius

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Correction, it's the Rod of Caduceus, not the Rod of Asclepius: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caduceus

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Hey Catapult,

Thanks (as always) for taking the time to chime in to show off the nuggets you've gathered while panning for lore.

HOWEVER, the Ahriman Assayer (scribbles down idea for new monster name) cannot accept this particular nugget...as it is fool's gold.

---

But... but... I'm a miner! I should be able to recognise pyrite! D:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

Fun Fact: We just translated a quest last week which touches upon the Gridanian standard and the TRUE meaning behind the twin snakes. It actually originated fiv-- Uh... The loremaster's giving me the evil eye... I think I'll stop right here...

Sorry I can't divulge any further, but rest assured, more info is coming.

---

/ears prick
/brain clicks
/starts scribbling furiously
You may have revealed far more than you realise. *_*

Of course I'm going to need a bit of time to consolidate these thoughts.

*(Rubs temples while staring very very hard at the screen)*

Could Ferne mean Five astral ages ago? Five thousand years ago? Five battles ago?

Wait... did Nophica and her sister Llymlaen have a battle? But I thought they got on great with each other. Wait wait wait... maybe Halone and Nophica had a battle in present day Gridania???

Bugger... now I'll keep thinking about this for days

Hrmmm...

Can someone get me a date on the Autmun War and the stuff that happened on Finesand Banks?
I want to pin a few more things down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Hrmmm...

Can someone get me a date on the Autmun War and the stuff that happened on Finesand Banks?
I want to pin a few more things down.

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From the flyer, My Little Chocobo Makeover
The Tragic Ride of Ouranos

Allow me, if you will, to venture some hundred years into the past, as I recount for you today a tale of bravery, loyalty, and heroism the likes of which our Eorzea has not seen since. The date is 1468 of the Sixth Astral Era. The forces of Ala Mhigo have crossed the Velodyna River, whose waters form the border with neighboring Gridania, and now claim dominion over the East Shroud. With its invasion into these lands sacred to the forestborn, Ala Mhigo, a garrison state known for its jingoism and expansionist ambitions, sparks what will come to be known as the Autumn War.

A History Lesson with Erik: Finesand Banks

They are found on the west shore of the Velodyna River, at the foot of a now extinct volcano overlooking Rothlyt Sound. The area is a sedimentary basin formed by the deposit of the fine silts and sands carried by the river. Today, it falls within Gridanian territory, but in days past it belonged to my own home nation─Ala Mhigo. A century ago, King Manfred came to power in Ala Mhigo and decided to expand the nation's territory in order to promote economic growth. To that end, he ordered the Ala Mhigan army to undertake large-scale campaigns that would eventually lead to the onset of the Autumn War.

Ok. About a Century. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/world/races/elezen

The forests, of which the Black Shroud is the tangled heart, have been home to the Wildwood Elezen for hundreds of years.

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and

Quote:

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Originally Posted by http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/world/races/elezen

The Elezen once claimed sole dominion over Eorzea, their presence predating that of the other races, and, as such, developed a heightened sense of honor and pride.

---

and

Quote:

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Originally Posted by http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/world/races/elezen

For the past several centuries, the Duskwight Elezen have lived in the woodland caverns of Eorzea. These cave-dwelling Elezen are the descendants of a branch that split from the main Wildwood clan during the founding of Gridania. The Duskwight despise the "shackles" of urban life, and it is not uncommon for this reclusive people to avoid the city-states altogether.

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SO. If the Elezen were around for thousands of years allowing them to pre-date the Miqo'te's arrival in the 5th Umbral Era, and if their presence in Gridania can be measured in terms of hundreds of years, and if the blazon of Gridania was established fiv-something something ago, and if at this time the duskwight/wildwood split was established by the Duskwight deciding to live underground, then I have an educated guess to make:

Gridania was established as a city-state about five hundred years ago, concurrent with the pact of Gelmorra between the padal and elementals. This marked the end of the Gelmorran civilisation.
(Ok, that second sentence I'm more shaky on my evidence for.)

Next up: Working about why people would speak of the re-formation of the Order of the Twin Adder when Gridania didn't even exist 1500 years ago when the companies were last seen. Does it stem from a Gelmorran tradition...?

Quote:

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http://static.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl...ext.png?_v=8r9

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That info about Ala Mihgo actually answered another question that was I going to ask as another thread - what exactly was Ala Mihgo's form of government prior to their invasion and annexation by Garlemald? The only information I knew about Ala Mihgan society was thus:

That prior to the Imperial invasion they were stated as being 'the strongest' and 'most technologically advanced of the Eorzean city states' (original website and manual)
That their standing armies originally consisted amongst other things of MNKs and LNCs (official website and original manual), but also included apparently GLAs and Disciples of Magic as well (Minfilia at the start of the Future's Perfect scenario quest)
That it was the ancestral home of the Highlander Hyur clan (official website)
That they have a slightly stubborn sense of honour, pride and justice that even as refugees they continue to adhere to (GLA class quests)
That they revered Rhalgar the Destroyer as their guardian deity of the Twelve (official website and various sources in game)
That the city was turned into a fortress after the invasion, and has been sealed off from the outside world by a huge wall (Future's Perfect scenario quest)
That their style of dress seems to be rather... skimpy to say the least (appearance of the Ala Mihgan Resistance members during Future's Perfect and Of Men They Sing) :p

But I never could find any information as to what exactly their government was prior to Gaius coming knocking with the XIVth Legion, until now. Thanks for that HiirNoivi and Catapult! :D

Back on original topic though, I just remembered something in regards to the choice of colour for Gridania's flag - and the reason why it was yellow and not green was so obvious. Because green is the colour of nature - as a nation that reveres nature and especially the elementals that are the voice and power of the natural world (specifically the forest), then it stands to reason that the Gridanians would also revere the colour of nature to the point of regarding it as so sacred and holy, that even to depict it on their flag would be blasphemous. After all, everything in their society is dictated by the elementals, so maybe yellow was the only colour the Gridanians were permitted to use and not green?

There is actually precedent in real-world mythology for this too - in particular, modern-day folklore, and a somewhat unlikely example. In modern folklore, as mentioned here on http://www.snopes.com/autos/cursed/green.asp , green is considered to be the worst colour to choose for a car. Apparently they are more likely to break down, suffer accidents, get stolen or have their drivers pulled over by the police, and the reason for this is exactly what I just mentioned about Gridania and the elementals.

Because green is the colour of nature, earth spirits are supposed to take offense at humanity's perversion of their sacred colour on their mechanical contraptions, and react accordingly. Of course, the real world aspect take with a grain of salt, but it does seem to ring true, and definitely fits in well with Gridania's lore and their pact with the elementals.

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it. :p

I'm not sure I'd buy into that colour argument, but I can answer your other question.

Ala Mhigo was a monarchy, probably one where the king retained supremity, unlike in Ul'dah.
Erik's history lessons tell us about the ambition of the former Ala Mhigan King, his wars against Gridania and his quarrels with the Fist of Rhalgr.

Yeah, I understand that now thanks to HiirNoivl's post. An absolute monarchy with a king as it's head of state. San d'Oria anyone? :D Thanks for that. :)

As for my earlier post about the colour of Gridania's flag, I just thought the idea of green being considered a sacred colour of the earth did fit in with Gridania's storyline. But I'm probably wrong in hindsight. Ah well, it's a nice theory anyway. :)

Epic bump, because Beta is being nice to me today.

The level 20 quest reveals a few things with great clarity.

Gridania was founded by Hyur and Elezen Settlers 500 years ago, once they made peace with the elementals and were permitted to live above ground (Gelmorra being below ground).

The entwined serpents of the Gridanian Standard represent the unity between the Hyur and elezen Settlers.

I haven't yet found what the lotus flower definitively represents, but I suspect it is something to do with their accord with the forest.

Well Lotus has a perfect circle, might as well it the standard "harmony" "circle" that the Japanese often use

Well, that makes a lot of sense - even though I already knew about

Gelmorra's history and the agreement with the elementals

, at least now my question has been answered (yes, I couldn't help but peek at that spoiler, even though I haven't reached level 20 in the Beta yet) - that makes perfect sense. :)

Thanks for the clarification Catapult! :D (oh, and I also found your reference in Limsa - that is so cool! :D).

Yeah I remember the twins talking about the different nations' standards and what they meant during the quest to jumpstart the memorial for those lost at Carteneau, I just didn't post about it. :x