Keeper of the Moon culture.

First of all I'd like to thank Fern, Gildrein, and SE for supplying us with a Lore forum. Thank you very much!

I only have two questions now that we have some more solid details on Miqo'te culture.

Now that we know that Keepers are a highly matriarchal society is it correct to assume that they also do not follow the Seeker model of having one breeding male paired with many females? Do they have more "traditional" families (i.e. the real world equivalent of the "nuclear family")? Or are they the opposite of Seekers (meaning one female paired with many males)?

Also, it is explicitly stated that Keeper males are not born nearly as often as Keeper females. Does this make them any way similar to how Mithra males were treated in Final Fantasy XI?

I know that the devs are very busy, and that I can hardly expect a direct answer to ONE roleplayer's questions, but it's very important to my character's back story, so even a little bit of discussion about this would be appreciated! Thank you.

Even though they are distinct in their cultures and appearances, I think the two tribes are similar enough that we can assume Keepers of the Moon also have only a few breeding males.

That being said, the added respect for the mother might imply that the breeding male chooses a lasting partner, rather than sticking to one-night stands. This female would be revered as queen of her tribe for a long time.

The Pern series of books has a similar scenario, but with opposite genders. The senior Queen dragon (there can be multiple gold dragons, but the eldest is Senior Queen) will have somewhat regular mating flights, and the one male dragon that catches and mates with her more-or-less becomes their leader until the next mating flight. Like the Miqo'te, this ensures that all of the Queen's children have the genes of the strongest male.

It's also possible that Keeper males don't get to decide who they breed with it all. The fact that they don't get their own unique name, really just their mother's name with a suffix on the given portion, makes me wonder if they have any power at all.

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Originally Posted by blackbluesky

It's also possible that Keeper males don't get to decide who they breed with it all. The fact that they don't get their own unique name, really just their mother's name with a suffix on the given portion, makes me wonder if they have any power at all.

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There was a period of Roman history where daughters didn't have names, they were just called "3rd daughter of such-and-such house." And, no surprise, they were basically traded around in arranged marriages for the political convenience of their fathers or brothers.

There is an isolated culture in Asia where a woman has several husbands. She owns property which houses her children and relatives. Men do not own any property but live in their mother's household or eldest female relative. I envision something similar to the Keeper Male stand point where the couple will be lovers not a harem of women where I can see some men imagining.

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Originally Posted by Sonata

There is an isolated culture in Asia where a woman has several husbands. She owns property which houses her children and relatives. Men do not own any property but live in their mother's household or eldest female relative. I envision something similar to the Keeper Male stand point where the couple will be lovers not a harem of women where I can see some men imagining.

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The first group to come to mind is the Mosuo in China, while another is the Minangkabau in Indonesia. The Wikipedia links are definitely worth skimming over for those interested.

I'm wondering about the overall organisation for Keepers. It says that they tend to live in small groups of only a few families. If families stayed together over several generations that would lead to inbreeding very quickly. Do males or females then traditionally leave their family group to to seek a partner or raise a family? Or maybe families form sort term partnerships lasting a few seasons/years for mutual benefit then breakup again?

If Keepers tend to be more isolated then how did so many of them end up migrating to Eorzea in the 1st place? Is there a ranking structure among the families or an over-all "Matriarch" that was able to organize so many families of Keepers to move together, or was there some sort of social incentive in Eorzea at the time that made it attractive enough that so many Keepers pulled up stakes despite the lack of organization? From my understanding the Keepers mostly settled in the Black Shroud--an area that is very inhospitable to live in (the forest tends to eat people when mad) :-( Is there ever any sort of wide-scale Keeper gathering? Maybe every year or every few years to look for new "partner families", mates, trade, apprenticeships etc?

In reference to the discussion about Keeper marriage perhaps males practice a form of serial monogamy, where they have a short term "marriage" to one female for a set time period and then move on to another partner after so many years? This would work with the matriarchal Keeper society since a child would then raised by their mother (and aunts?) with their father a distant memory (or rarely seen figure is gatherings do exist). Likewise if a women could have children by multiple fathers, it would make sense for Keeper culture to emphasize the mother and her family as a unifying element.

Biology aside: I wonder if single births are the norm for Miq'ote in general or do they have something like litters with twins and triplets being more common? That might help explain the gender disparity, since if males are so rare a women would probably be encouraged to continue having kids until she had at least one son for the survival of the species. Somehow I don't see Miq'ote women as spending all of their time pregnant.

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Originally Posted by Naria

I'm wondering about the overall organisation for Keepers. It says that they tend to live in small groups of only a few families. If families stayed together over several generations that would lead to inbreeding very quickly. Do males or females then traditionally leave their family group to to seek a partner or raise a family? Or maybe families form sort term partnerships lasting a few seasons/years for mutual benefit then breakup again?

If Keepers tend to be more isolated then how did so many of them end up migrating to Eorzea in the 1st place? Is there a ranking structure among the families or an over-all "Matriarch" that was able to organize so many families of Keepers to move together, or was there some sort of social incentive in Eorzea at the time that made it attractive enough that so many Keepers pulled up stakes despite the lack of organization? From my understanding the Keepers mostly settled in the Black Shroud--an area that is very inhospitable to live in (the forest tends to eat people when mad) :-( Is there ever any sort of wide-scale Keeper gathering? Maybe every year or every few years to look for new "partner families", mates, trade, apprenticeships etc?

In reference to the discussion about Keeper marriage perhaps males practice a form of serial monogamy, where they have a short term "marriage" to one female for a set time period and then move on to another partner after so many years? This would work with the matriarchal Keeper society since a child would then raised by their mother (and aunts?) with their father a distant memory (or rarely seen figure is gatherings do exist). Likewise if a women could have children by multiple fathers, it would make sense for Keeper culture to emphasize the mother and her family as a unifying element.

Biology aside: I wonder if single births are the norm for Miq'ote in general or do they have something like litters with twins and triplets being more common? That might help explain the gender disparity, since if males are so rare a women would probably be encouraged to continue having kids until she had at least one son for the survival of the species. Somehow I don't see Miq'ote women as spending all of their time pregnant.

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I'd assume the Miqo'te were one tribe prior to their migration to Eorzea in the Fifth Umbral Era. Once the ice thawed up and the land returned to 'normal' they could have then split into the different tribes and settling in the different parts. Seekers in the Sagoli Desert and the Keepers in the Twelveswood.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

I'd assume the Miqo'te were one tribe prior to their migration to Eorzea in the Fifth Umbral Era. Once the ice thawed up and the land returned to 'normal' they could have then split into the different tribes and settling in the different parts. Seekers in the Sagoli Desert and the Keepers in the Twelveswood.

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No, we've been told the Seeker of the Sun migration was 26 tribes of seekers.
The Keeper of the Moon tribe may or may not have happened at the same time, but would have been a different migration group by the looks of it.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

No, we've been told the Seeker of the Sun migration was 26 tribes of seekers.
The Keeper of the Moon tribe may or may not have happened at the same time, but would have been a different migration group by the looks of it.

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ah I see, carry on then.

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Originally Posted by blackbluesky

It's also possible that Keeper males don't get to decide who they breed with it all. The fact that they don't get their own unique name, really just their mother's name with a suffix on the given portion, makes me wonder if they have any power at all.

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You make them sound like nothing more than a genetic dispenser.

I wouldn't go that far, but living in a "highly matriarchal" society and having a name that equates to "So and so's second son"? There's got to be some power disparity going on there.

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Originally Posted by blackbluesky

I wouldn't go that far, but living in a "highly matriarchal" society and having a name that equates to "So and so's second son"? There's got to be some power disparity going on there.

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Sad, but true. The gay boys would have it particularly tough.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

No, we've been told the Seeker of the Sun migration was 26 tribes of seekers.
The Keeper of the Moon tribe may or may not have happened at the same time, but would have been a different migration group by the looks of it.

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The Miqo'te traveled together as 1 race the sea.

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During the Age of Endless Frost, as the seas turned to ice and passage over them became possible, Eorzea saw an influx of foreign fauna to her shores. This in turn brought the hunting tribes which subsisted upon them, the modern descendants of whom are today known as the Miqo’te.

Since then, the Miqo’te have diverged into two physically distinguishable groups — the diurnal Seekers of the Sun and the nocturnal Keepers of the Moon. Both groups share a superb olfactory sense and powerful leg musculature, results of a long evolution geared towards hunting and predation.

Comparatively few in number, they maintain an insular group mentality, tending to avoid contact with the other races. Many individuals lead isolated lifestyles, even when residing in the more populous cities.

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Originally Posted by Felis

The Miqo'te traveled together as 1 race the sea.

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Just curious but with your following quote do you remember the official source? I remember reading the same when the game 1st came out, but that's not posted to the official site now and I can't remember if it was at the time or if it comes from the wikis.

Naming conventions seem to contradict them being one tribe during the Fifth Umbral era though; supposedly some Keeper families can date their names back to the First Astral (which of course may be legend and not actually true but it does imply that they have at least some reason to believe it), where as the Seekers have a very different surname system.

Cultures do change over time especially considering we are talking about millennia here so Keepers could have preserved older traditions even if the are the "newer" race. On the other hand a few millennia does seem like a short time for so many differences to develop physically between the two races. Maybe a wizard did it?;)

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Originally Posted by Felis

The Miqo'te traveled together as 1 race the sea.

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Originally Posted by Naria

Just curious but with your following quote do you remember the official source? I remember reading the same when the game 1st came out, but that's not posted to the official site now and I can't remember if it was at the time or if it comes from the wikis.

Naming conventions seem to contradict them being one tribe during the Fifth Umbral era though; supposedly some Keeper families can date their names back to the First Astral (which of course may be legend and not actually true but it does imply that they have at least some reason to believe it), where as the Seekers have a very different surname system.

Cultures do change over time especially considering we are talking about millennia here so Keepers could have preserved older traditions even if the are the "newer" race. On the other hand a few millennia does seem like a short time for so many differences to develop physically between the two races. Maybe a wizard did it?;)

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Hats off to you both. Not just for proving me incorrect, but because we also have a new conundrum.

This is why I love these forums. :P

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

You make them sound like nothing more than a genetic dispenser.

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to be honest that only sounds weird cause we're from a highly patriarchal culture. Males being a mere genetic dispenser is no different from females being breeding machines in our earlier ages.

This was in the other Miqo'te post but It brought up a few questions from me:

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Originally Posted by Fernehalwes

When the Seekers of the Sun came to Eorzea from their homelands, there were only 26 tribes. Since that time, there have been some males who, instead of defeating their tribe's nunh and becoming a breeding male by normal means, opt to leave the tribe and form their own. However, it is rare for female Seekers of the Sun to follow these males, so these newly formed tribes almost always die out.

This does not mean that it doesn't happen.
If a male leaves to form his own tribe, he will replace the letter from his original tribe (for example, the "Y" in Y'shtola) with a new one. Since the 26 letters of the Eorzean alphabet are already taken, the new tribal prefix will be often be two letters (Ma -> Ma'shtola) which are of the tribe-forming male's choosing (and all people in his tribe will use that same prefix).

His last name will be Nunh, as he is now the new breeding male (as designated by himself) of his new tribe.

While not impossible (people can do what they want with their names), a Seeker of the Sun choosing his mother's name to be his last, would amount to shunning his culture and adopting the rules of the Keepers of the Moon. There will be some Seekers of the Sun who will respect this, but others who frown upon it.

Hope that helps!!

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So what about Seekers of the Moon? What happens when they shun their culture? Since they're solitary already would anyone actually care if one up and decided to abandon their miqo'te traditions and families? How would this affect males since the culture is matriarchal while we're at it? Would that be a serious offense? It's kind of unclear how the males fit into the grand scheme of their culture...

And since this seems to be an age of adventurers would there be cases where a traveling miqo'te up and abandons their old name altogether for a simpler name from another culture like Humes or would they just be too stubborn?

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Hats off to you both. Not just for proving me incorrect, but because we also have a new conundrum.

This is why I love these forums. :P

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See I knew I wasn't entirely crazy..think we're gonna need Gildrein or Ferne on this one. We're told the ancestors of the Miqo'te tribes came across the ice land bridges that formed during the Fifth Umbral Era, but for naming purposes we're then told that 26 Seekers of the Sun tribes were part of the exodus...so Keepers of the Moon branched off from these original 26 or were Keepers of the Moon merely left out of the description? As in they journeyed to Eorzea along with the Seekers of the Sun, we're just not given something descriptive as 26 tribes in the naming thread.

pickpickpicknitpicking

I'm hoping that we'll be able to find clarity in the field eventually~