Seeker of the Sun Nunh + Keeper of the moon

So, what naming convention and what tribe would belong a child born of the mating of a Nunh Seeker of the sun and a Keeper of the moon female?

I can't figure this one out (may be that I'm overloaded with work and really tired).

I'd also like to know this, as my character and another couple peoples' are supposed to be halflings as well.

I'll have to use my name as a placeholder as it is non-gender-exclusive, and use the examples of K'takya Nunh and Okhi Nbolo as parents, so forgive me for matchmaking and gender bending in the same post.

Here's my take:

The female Seeker of the Sun is given a surname that is identical to the father's first name, while the male has no reference to their lineage apart from the tribal prefix. Therefore only for a daughter will the parent name matter with sun-kitties:

Parents: K'takya Nunh and Okhi Nbolo
Male: K'yru Tia
Female: K'yru Takya

For Keepers of the Moon, both genders are dependent on the mother's surname, but only a male's first name is dependent on the mother's first name.

Parents: K'takya Nunh and Okhi Nbolo
Male(1st): Okhi'a Nbolo
Female: Yru Nbolo

For the crossing of these parents, the names of both parents is impossible to reflect in a daughter apart from blatantly passing either parent's first name down as a first name, although you can at least include the tribal prefix. However, for a male you can take the tribal prefix from the father and both names of the mother, and hopefully circumstances will allow you to disregard the numbering suffix of the first name.

Parents: K'takya Nunh and Okhi Nbolo
Male: K'okhi Nbolo (K'okhi'a Nbolo if the first of multiple sons)
Female: K'yru Nbolo (K'takya Nbolo if you want to fully reflect the father's name)

I suppose there might be other ways to mix and match, but this is what I came up with. Another question this raises is what you would call the resulting child:

Keeper of the Sun
Seeker of the Moon
Bringer of the Dawn/Dusk/Twilight
Beholder of the Eclipse

Seeing as the father of the Sunnies and the mother of the Moonies are the ones from which a child takes their name, there would likely be a fight! Actually, I bet it's a case by case basis, thing. To know, we'd probably have to know the stance of the particular Sun Seeker tribe on Moon Keepers at the time the child came to be. Seems to me that either the Sun tribe would take on the Moon Keeper as their own (Moonies being solitary and the Sunny male not likely wanting to leave his tribe), or the couple would leave to live a solitary life ala the Moonies. It's probably not out of the question for the two star crossed lovers to be booted from both their respective groups depending on attitudes between the two tribes at the time.

Over-all... My guess is that it'd depend very solidly on the disposition of the male/female and tribes involved, rather than some set of rules. ... Unless they actually have rules for that >.> Ooooh, what if it depends on if they're born at night or during the day. That'd be really cool :x!

My guess would be its something like people choosing which last name to use after getting married... you could either go to one side or the other, or attempt a mixing (like a hypenated name).

Most likely I think would be the child follows Moon conventions, as both clans are fairly matriarchal as far as power is concerned and the mother might hold more sway in the decision.

That said, both parents would likely be shunned by their original societies for interbreeding... so they could realistically name the child anything and it would also be shunned as a half-blood no matter what.

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Originally Posted by Xenedra

To know, we'd probably have to know the stance of the particular Sun Seeker tribe on Moon Keepers at the time the child came to be. Seems to me that either the Sun tribe would take on the Moon Keeper as their own (Moonies being solitary and the Sunny male not likely wanting to leave his tribe), or the couple would leave to live a solitary life ala the Moonies.

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Right, this does have a huge impact on how the child would be named. I imagine it also has to do with the child's legitimacy and whether or not the parents consider themselves a couple, let alone how their tribes see them. What if a Tia had a brief fling with a Keeper of the Moon woman, then the father died and the mother died in labor? Likely the mother would have returned to her small family and the child would be born with a Moon name.

Hmmm all of this really give a good starting point as to create a back story for our characters, having to define our parents and the circumstances in which we were born, as it would probably be as you guys said, it's a case-to-case basis and depends on the relationship between the parents.

So much to think about with just this bit of info provided! I can't wait to get a hold of more lore related stuff!

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Originally Posted by Myranda

That said, both parents would likely be shunned by their original societies for interbreeding... so they could realistically name the child anything and it would also be shunned as a half-blood no matter what.

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Depressing.... I still think the half-breed type needs its own name. Go, Beholders of the Eclipse!

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

Depressing.... I still think the half-breed type needs its own name. Go, Beholders of the Eclipse!

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It is a bit sad... but likely realistic. Somewhat rare too, considering one clan is diurnal and the other nocturnal so they may not come into contact all that often because one clan is busy sleeping. However! I think city folk would tend to be much more accepting, with the shunning more prominent in those still living the traditional tribal lifestyle. Big cities always are a melting pot of outcasts from other societies.

As for what to call the half-breeds, I think I'm partial to the dawn/dusk/twilight version... dawn has a leaning towards the Seeker of the Sun being prominent as the night is fading and daybreak is taking over, and just the opposite for dusk. Twilight would be more neutral. No matter which it might be referred to, I doubt it would link accurately to their daily activity/sleep cycle. Being crepuscular wouldn't leave them much time to get anything done!

I've been thinking about this a bit, especially with the social structure of the tribes.

Sun Miqo'te have a large population of males that are forced into celibacy.
Moon Miqo'tes have a small population of males due to low birthrate.
Females of both tribes would have a limited selection of males.

From a genetics standpoint, wouldn't these tribes begin to get really inbred after awhile? And can a Moon and Sun Miqo'te produce viable offspring? And how would such offspring be treated by the respective tribes? (And would be they physically healthier due to more diverse genetics?) It might not matter what we name our mixed breed Miqo'tes, if neither tribe will accept them.

Then there are the Miqo'tes that we the players get. Are they actual members of tribes, or are they outcasts? You think that a Miqo'te member of a Grand Company would be much more liberal in their views that one of the more traditional tribe members. (We probably won't know the full story behind this until 2.0 is released to the public).

But my opinion...I wouldn't be surprised if the Grand Companies were filled with Miqo'tes of both tribes and genders who were fed up with both social systems and decided to try their fortune elsewhere. You would probably have Sun males who would like to mate with someone without taking their life into their own hands (or maybe experiment with other species, heh) and Moon males who are probably tired of being under their mother's or sisters' thumbs all the time. You might have liberal Sun females who would like a single mate they don't have to share (like other races do, i.e. have a spouse) or can't stand their current tribe's Nunh; Moon females who might like a bigger mate selection in general. You might also have the rare deposed Nunh who didn't want to continue living among his tribe as a demoted Tia.

Big cities would be perfect places for these Miqo'tes to mix, and I doubt other of the races like Hyur, Lalafell, Roe, and Elezen would care if Moon and Sun cats were intermixing. It would be the perfect place for them to start using alias as well.

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Originally Posted by ShirKirakira

I've been thinking about this a bit, especially with the social structure of the tribes.

From a genetics standpoint, wouldn't these tribes begin to get really inbred after awhile?

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Try to think on them as a pride of Lions, usually the sons will go and join another Pride or start their own while the daughters are allowed to stay. This means there's not a lot if inbreeding and then the alpha sons can pass on their genetics far and wide; if the son is a strong alpha, it's good for the entire population as opposed to if he sat on the serengheti banging his sisters (yuck lol)

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Originally Posted by ShirKirakira

Big cities would be perfect places for these Miqo'tes to mix, and I doubt other of the races like Hyur, Lalafell, Roe, and Elezen would care if Moon and Sun cats were intermixing.

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I somehow always feel that the "general public" doesn't even care which tribe they're from and would just refer to both as Miqo'te or cat people, or even something more racist. Pretty much the same would apply to all other races, except maybe for Hyur since the difference in their physique is more notable than with other races who generally vary only in skin colour and less noticeable physical traits like ear shape, for example.

Have to admit, to this day I can't distinguish the Lalafell tribes .___. They're just. . . . Lalafell to me, and to be brutally honest, I don't think I wish to learn or pay attention to the differences >.>;;; *gets on a high stool where no angry Lalafell can reach him*

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Originally Posted by ShirKirakira

Females of both tribes would have a limited selection of males.

From a genetics standpoint, wouldn't these tribes begin to get really inbred after awhile? And can a Moon and Sun Miqo'te produce viable offspring? And how would such offspring be treated by the respective tribes? (And would be they physically healthier due to more diverse genetics?) It might not matter what we name our mixed breed Miqo'tes, if neither tribe will accept them.

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According to the lore, there is like 1 male for every 20(?) females. Which means that 19 of those females won't have a mate/children. It's natures way of controlling the population. This assumes that females only have 1 mate in life. No inbreeding should occur, most females don't have mates/children. Nature keeps enough Miqos around to mate, but not explode in population.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

According to the lore, there is like 1 male for every 20(?) females. Which means that 19 of those females won't have a mate/children. It's natures way of controlling the population. This assumes that females only have 1 mate in life. No inbreeding should occur, most females don't have mates/children. Nature keeps enough Miqos around to mate, but not explode in population.

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The way I read it was it was one male per many females, but they were more like his harem, so they would mate with all of them. A lot of the lesser males would be celibate until they could become Nunh, though some dev clarification on this would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by Nix

The way I read it was it was one male per many females, but they were more like his harem, so they would mate with all of them. A lot of the lesser males would be celibate until they could become Nunh, though some dev clarification on this would be awesome.

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(a ratio of one nunh per ten to fifty females is average)

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I think the fact that the word nunh is used in the above quote pretty much means that the male will breed with ten to fifty females, so a harem seems to be right.

One thing to note though. . . . if we take the lion tribes as an example again, not all females necessarily bear children. With lions, the females are the hunters, and to my understanding, even if more females have cubs with the alpha male, there's always a dominant female who may take it upon herself to kill the cubs of a "lesser" female in the tribe if she sees them a threat to her own offspring. The male, even though he's a killer/hunter himself usually takes the backseat to his female personal army and is mainly there to pass the strongest genes.

Now, when applied to SoS Miqo'te, it's been stated that the nunh isn't the actual alpha male, as in leader, though in a breeding sense, he is, as there may be a few tia in the same pack who are being sexually inactive (or not, depending on their sexuality I guess) who may follow the pack, hunt together and feed together forever, as they are, or until a tia in the pack takes action (either challenge the nunh, leave the pack to form his own harem or leaves the pack just cause he feels like it. . . .)

Some more dev clarification about how the Nunh and Tia thing work out would be nice.

I know in the naming conventions for Sun Miqo'tes it said there were originally 26 tribes, with a few branching off to found newer, smaller tribes. So do the current Tia males stay put with their own tribe, or do they wander constantly from tribe to tribe, hoping to oust a Nuhn males? Wandering males would spread out the gene pool. And how long does a Nunh stay in his position on average? A few years, a decade? Also, do the females stay put too, or do they wander as well?

Whatever we decide on how to name them, lets not give them a clan name of Beholders of the Twilight. Last thing we need are a bunch of kitties that run around in the day sparkling in the damn sun.

Let us think of this from a cultural perspective rather than a genetic inheritance perspective.

You've specified that the father is a nunh. This gives him a significant standing in his clan and he would lose the title if he left it. This means that the Moonkeeper mother has come to him, inside the Sunseeker societal structure.

If the child is born within that society, the society would demand the child take the father's name in accordance with their rules.

However, If the mother departed the clan before giving birth to the child, she would be able to give the child a name in accordance with her own Moonkeeper traditions.

Likewise, if the father was in fact a Tia (maybe even a former nunh) who had left Sunseeker culture when he mated with the Moonkeeper female, the mother's culture would likely again apply.

Things would get far more interesting if the father was a Moonkeeper and the mother was a Sunseeker, so neither parent would have a naming convention to pass on.

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Originally Posted by SpectreWolf

Whatever we decide on how to name them, lets not give them a clan name of Beholders of the Twilight. Last thing we need are a bunch of kitties that run around in the day sparkling in the damn sun.

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Those books took a beautiful word and made it retarded, so I think it's only fair that we try and win it back as a beautiful word. Kingdom Hearts is helping.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Let us think of this from a cultural perspective rather than a genetic inheritance perspective.

You've specified that the father is a nunh. This gives him a significant standing in his clan and he would lose the title if he left it. This means that the Moonkeeper mother has come to him, inside the Sunseeker societal structure.

If the child is born within that society, the society would demand the child take the father's name in accordance with their rules.

However, If the mother departed the clan before giving birth to the child, she would be able to give the child a name in accordance with her own Moonkeeper traditions.

Likewise, if the father was in fact a Tia (maybe even a former nunh) who had left Sunseeker culture when he mated with the Moonkeeper female, the mother's culture would likely again apply.

Things would get far more interesting if the father was a Moonkeeper and the mother was a Sunseeker, so neither parent would have a naming convention to pass on.

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As it's been said before, the naming of such a child is on a case-by-case basis, and depends heavily on whether or not the parents want to adhere to traditions. They might opt to disregard traditions entirely, even if they're part of a major tribe.