Obscure Theories and Plot Analyses

Long post, but try not to respond unless you've at least put forth an effort to understand it.

Many classic games have some fascinating (if trivial) fan-derived theories that, whether or not you believe them, pull you deeper into the lore.

Pokemon has things like the death of Blue's Raticate (apparently Red killed him, but this was never outright stated and the idea was derived from fan interpretation of facts.)

FFVII for a while had a "Tseng is dead" theory because of a mistranslated line spoken by Elena (later proven false by Advent Children).

FFVIII has the whole thing in squallisdead.com. (a VERY interesting read, even if you don't favor the theory) It also has a theory where Ultimecia is Rinoa, which I fully support. And let's not forget the heavily implied relationship between Laguna and Squall.

FFIX had the omgwtfbbq appearance of Necron. (would have been better with more foreshadowing and less Yoda quoting)

FFX has Tidus' imperfectly explained existential crisis, made even more interesting in X-2 (one of a few neat things to take away from X-2)


My questions are:

• Does FFXIV have something like this in the lore?
• Can an MMO have any ambiguous plot elements?
• Do you think this type of trivia helps sustain interest in a game many years later?

It's not much, but I considered the following line from Don't Hate the Messenger:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gaius Van Baelsar

It is a great red sin, exiled to the skies by ancient Allag. There it has long festered, becoming something far more vile than we ever supposed.

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What does he mean by that? Why call Dalamud a "sin" and not an "evil entity" or something of the like? Does he (or whoever he got the word "sin" from) feel that Allag had sinned in containing Bahamut? Is Dalamud (and Bahamut therein) labeled as a sin because its destructive nature "festered" from an evil deed? And how would he know if Dalamud was Allag's misdeed, and not created independently and simply sent skyward by Allag? Unfortunately this line was a 1.0 story exclusive, so newer fans may never think much of it when they watch it on youtube.

Can an MMO have things like this? I think it's a matter of Square-Enix putting a few unexplained but subtly related things (or even unclear lines of text) into the game that allude to a more fascinating/disturbing idea that is never outright stated. As soon as SE makes an official statement on the matter, however, the allure of these things fades.

Let's face it: even if these unclear suggestions at greater truths are little more than developmental/translation mistakes, they can drive fans wild. Players stumble on these theories online and, whether they appreciate them or not, their interest is renewed, if not enhanced. I wonder how many people bought a new copy of FFVIII after reading the Squall Is Dead theory simply because it made them nostalgic. Okay, maybe not all of them, but surely there have been some.

Vague trivia really helps to sustain a game's legacy, and I really hope we can see some interesting ideas popping out of the fan community in the near future. This was also part of why I went to such great lengths to cover as much of 1.0 Eorzea as possible on the FF wiki; I hope to see some fascinating discrepancies

there is no cow level

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ander?p=871406

To answer the "can a MMO have a story like this question,"

Yes, Final Fantasy XI had an amazing amazing story that was laid out well. The only problem was that the game was so brutal when I played (the early days until roughly around 07) that many did not see the whole thing to fruition. Promathia for example had probably one of the best stories ever done in a MMO. Hell, it was so good it would almost work as a stand-alone. The reveals were slow and ambiguous and some questions were left to our imagination. Again, since it was so bloody hard when it was first released many did not get to experience it.

Also, Rinoa is Ultimecia has been officially nixed by Word of God FYI.

One nifty little tidbit they mentioned a while back (shortly after the servers when down, IIRC) was that the Ascian you see in one of the main scenario quests may have been in more than just that one cutscene. Ascian is a word adopted from ancient Greek meaning "without a shadow." We were told we should go back and watch the old cutscenes and look for anyone who doesn't have a shadow.

Might be worth a look.

That won't work for anyone who turned shadows off to improve graphic stability though (like me) ;).

But seriously, it definitely seemed Tanaka had some major revelation planned for the future with that entity (the fact it scared the beastmen senseless says a lot).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

That won't work for anyone who turned shadows off to improve graphic stability though (like me) ;).

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OH MY GOD EVERYONE YOU'VE EVER MET IS AN ASCIAN!

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Originally Posted by radhaz

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ander?p=871406

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Read it /10

There are people here that theorized Dalamud being Bahamut. From the names sounding the same to the more in depth lore. It was spot on and I think that is awesome that some people guessed it right.

Who here wants to theorize what happened to Hildebrand?

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Originally Posted by radhaz

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ander?p=871406

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Yes, you will want to read this, Yrusama. We get stuck into all sorts of stuff, including primal, creating, elements and even time travel and associated causality. Fernehalwes also drops a few lorebombs.

Also, Ascians are a huge ground for conspiracy theories these days.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

OH MY GOD EVERYONE YOU'VE EVER MET IS AN ASCIAN!

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Or a vampire (No shadow/reflection). After all, that Ascian does look very wraith-like. ;)

Oh goddess, if one is shown in 2.0 to be all glittery I'm quitting for good and burning my copy of the game. ><

(Will not really quit nor burn the game, but will in fact burn a certain detestable novel instead)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Powercow

One nifty little tidbit they mentioned a while back (shortly after the servers when down, IIRC) was that the Ascian you see in one of the main scenario quests may have been in more than just that one cutscene. Ascian is a word adopted from ancient Greek meaning "without a shadow." We were told we should go back and watch the old cutscenes and look for anyone who doesn't have a shadow.

Might be worth a look.

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I totally forgot about the Ascian! This is closer to what I'm thinking of, but it's still an official statement from SE. That's actually really creepy, though, and I might have to look into it. Watch it turn out to be our path companion. Or Gaius. Or Ifrit.

@Darkillumina: Yes, XI had a lot of great story content, but I don't feel the need to dig deeper into the story. All of it was pretty clearly explained, even CoP.

And I don't know who this "Word of God" thing is, but I haven't seen enough info to deny the Ulti-Rinoa theory. It might not be an intended interpretation, but SE didn't help by giving Ultimecia the same weapon type as Rinoa in Dissidia.

I watched all the cutscenes after the scene with the Ascian (which indeed has no shadow), but didn't find anything. It might be in one of the guild cutscenes, or at some point before it. Anyway, it's sort of hard to derive tidbits from 1.x since we don't have it anymore.

One thing I've always been curious about: were the Gelmorrans Duskwight Elezen? They lived underground in fear until they learned to communicate with the Elementals. The Elezen were the first race on Eorzea, and the Duskwights lived in caves.

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

I watched all the cutscenes after the scene with the Ascian (which indeed has no shadow), but didn't find anything. It might be in one of the guild cutscenes, or at some point before it. Anyway, it's sort of hard to derive tidbits from 1.x since we don't have it anymore.

One thing I've always been curious about: were the Gelmorrans Duskwight Elezen? They lived underground in fear until they learned to communicate with the Elementals. The Elezen were the first race on Eorzea, and the Duskwights lived in caves.

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Yes, Gelmorrans were Duskwight Elezen or atleast precursors to the Duskwight Elezen. As I've stated in multiple posts I believe that Hellsguard Roegydan and Duskwight Elezen are the only "native" races to Eorzea. Hellsguard living in the mountains to the north of Ishgard and Dravania, Duskwight Elezen living in natural and 'man'-made caves under the Twelveswood.

As for Ascians, we searched extensively (we, being multiple people from the CG Midlander thread a.k.a. Lore Central) for characters without Shadows, only 1 was found and that was Travanchet, who along with not having a Shadow has his own theme music.

• Does FFXIV have something like this in the lore? Very much so. The entire Ul'dah Storyline is very vague and leaves question after question. i.e. What happened to Corguevais? What happened to the Horn he stole? What was in the coffin when Niellefresne opened it and gave him such a shock? List could go on.
• Can an MMO have any ambiguous plot elements? Yes.
• Do you think this type of trivia helps sustain interest in a game many years later? Not everyone will be into the Story and are more into the rush of Raids. While I'm into Raids AND into the Storyline. That's why I'm here, it's a Final Fantasy title that will (or should) get better with each patch. There's plenty of antagonist to keep things going as well: Garleans, Ascians (maybe?), Primals (maybe?), Beastmen (maybe?), and Enemies Within (Lord Lolorito maybe?). Lots of maybes but that's only because we don't know if they're truly 'Evil.'

As for why Gaius van Baelsar calls Bahamut/Dalamud a 'sin,' its because he's on the side of the Emperor, they view Primals as abominations and that's who their 'real' enemy is.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

As for why Gaius van Baelsar calls Bahamut/Dalamud a 'sin,' its because he's on the side of the Emperor, they view Primals as abominations and that's who their 'real' enemy is.

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Good answers, especially this one. I suppose the summoning of an Eikon falls under the "sin" category.

I didn't get to see all of the Ul'dah storyline because I never started a character there, and it was cut short on youtube. If anyone knows where I can see all of it (including the non-cutscene portions), I'd very much like to finish it.

That's a good list of villains. A lot of Final Fantasy titles involve the party facing opposition from a variety of factions. (FFVII had Shinra, Sephiroth, Weapon, and the usual monsters). Did any of you watch Mortal Kombat Conquest? Very few of the villains were ever outright killed. They tended to run away in case the writers needed to recycle them for later episodes/seasons. The series was cut short, though, and ended poorly (not that it was great to begin with).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

Good answers, especially this one. I suppose the summoning of an Eikon falls under the "sin" category.

I didn't get to see all of the Ul'dah storyline because I never started a character there, and it was cut short on youtube. If anyone knows where I can see all of it (including the non-cutscene portions), I'd very much like to finish it.

That's a good list of villains. A lot of Final Fantasy titles involve the party facing opposition from a variety of factions. (FFVII had Shinra, Sephiroth, Weapon, and the usual monsters). Did any of you watch Mortal Kombat Conquest? Very few of the villains were ever outright killed. They tended to run away in case the writers needed to recycle them for later episodes/seasons. The series was cut short, though, and ended poorly (not that it was great to begin with).

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Supposedly the Sahagin will be in the game soon too. That could mean the return of Hyllfyr and the Bloody Executioners (Merlwyb's nemesis?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Powercow

One nifty little tidbit they mentioned a while back (shortly after the servers when down, IIRC) was that the Ascian you see in one of the main scenario quests may have been in more than just that one cutscene. Ascian is a word adopted from ancient Greek meaning "without a shadow." We were told we should go back and watch the old cutscenes and look for anyone who doesn't have a shadow.

Might be worth a look.

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See here a man without a shadow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrF7...ailpage#t=315s

Make sure the novel is Atlas Shrugged.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Or a vampire (No shadow/reflection). After all, that Ascian does look very wraith-like. ;)

Oh goddess, if one is shown in 2.0 to be all glittery I'm quitting for good and burning my copy of the game. ><

(Will not really quit nor burn the game, but will in fact burn a certain detestable novel instead)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Felis

See here a man without a shadow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttrF7...ailpage#t=315s

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Wow..~

Thanks for that! I really didnt know how much I could be missing.

Definitely on my list of things to do now (try other cities quests).

Hopefully the good stuff isnt removed for 2.0 >.> lol

The Hyur Midlander Theory:

He suffers post traumatic stress disorder. Constantly having flashbacks of battle/wars he's been in. Losing himself from all the conflict.

Each race in the group he is in is really himself. Why else would he be a ranger at one point, but then become a warrior?
In short, we are him, what we do is what he thinks he is.

During the Dalamud Crisis, he was fight against the garleans so much he has no clue of what to make civilians do in his mind, which is why the NPCs of the game never really cared about the moon getting closer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yrusama

I watched all the cutscenes after the scene with the Ascian (which indeed has no shadow), but didn't find anything. It might be in one of the guild cutscenes, or at some point before it. Anyway, it's sort of hard to derive tidbits from 1.x since we don't have it anymore.

One thing I've always been curious about: were the Gelmorrans Duskwight Elezen? They lived underground in fear until they learned to communicate with the Elementals. The Elezen were the first race on Eorzea, and the Duskwights lived in caves.

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There was an npc in Black Shroud called Millith Ironheart at Buscaron's Fold, who mentioned they were looking for a hidden city beneath Black Shroud called Geimorra.