Truely separating class from job - an overhaul (again).

Even though they did an overhaul to all classes in order to create jobs, I believe much of the overhaul was overdone and uneccisary. Classes only needed to be tuned and balanced to suit their roles, while the jobs would be completely different from the classes and suit their own roles. After their overhaul, classes pretty much became useless once you had the job for it. Their idea of classes being for solo died swiftly as people including me found that the job was much much better for soloing than the class.

I believe another overhaul is needed to achieve true separation of class and job. One of the major flaws is that a job learns only a measly 5 extra skills/spells which was suspost to define it. It doesn't do the trick, at all. All it does is change the class into an advanced class. The job can still use everything the class could, with only less cross class skills - which didn't effect the jobs ability to still do what the class could do + more.

The Idea of my overhaul is to add onto the spells/skills learned through the job quests as level up skills, and start the jobs out at level 20 instead of 30. I will use the THM for the first example. (I dont kn[

THMs is mostly reverted back to before the class overhaul (pre-elemental spells). Zam thankfully still has a list of their old skills: http://www.zam.com/wiki/Thaumaturge_%28FFXIV%29 Some modifications to it are to be made (to get rid of some of II's and III's, add more traits, and rebalance to fit its lore and not be OP as it use to be)

• lvl1 : Banish and Scourge - scales potency and increases MP costs with level (as with all spells)
• lvl4 : Sacrifice single target (Slightly higher MP cost with HP cost for the extra regen effect)
• lvl6 : Trait - increase Aattack Macc
• lvl8 : Poison
• lvl10: Resurrect
• lvl12: Trait - increase Enfeeble Macc
• lvl14: Slow
• lvl16: Bio and Dia
• lvl18: Trait - Increase duration of poison
• lvl20: Attribute Drains

None of these has to be exactly as listed, but would be a start. At lvl 20 player will be able to unlock the BLM job to attatch to thm. This time, the BLM will have spells, abilities and traits avaliable at level up, the ones that were quested for can remain quested for.


BLM at 20 loses the ability to use the attribute drains, sacrifice, resurrect, scourge/banish and gains its first spell Fire:

• lvl20: Fire and Fira (fira is the aoe version)
• lvl21: Blizard and Blizara
• lvl22: Thunder and thundara(potencies equal! and all unusable as thm)
• lvl24: Trait - increase Attack Mpotency (BLM only)
• lvl26: Ability - Increase Attack M Crit rate until getting a critical
• lvl28: Sleep
• lvl30: Trait increase Att M Crit rate

Etc Etc


Meanwhile THM will be learing these:

• lvl22 Sacriga (or sacrifice II)
• lvl24 Trait - Decrease HP cost of sacrifice (not II)
• lvl26 Banishga and Scourga (Aoe versions)
• lvl28 Gravity
• lvl30 Drain

So on and on. This way, class and job get truely separated and dont become useless in the name of jobs, and creates 8 more playstyle choices for a total of 16.

And I know, it would be a big overhaul. But SE is perfectly capable of big overhauls, and I think this will be for the best. And yes, it will take 'time' lol. I would rather they take the time to make this system work rather than handing us another steaming pile of crap where they might as well delete classes.

boring topic is boring. Also, this "overhaul", as you know, effectively double the number of classes. While it seems a good thing, they'll also double the time testing new content before releasing, and for what ?

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

boring topic is boring. Also, this "overhaul", as you know, effectively double the number of classes. While it seems a good thing, they'll also double the time testing new content before releasing, and for what ?

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For what is obvious, for classes to not be useless. I thought I made that clear.

i would say let talk arr before say if classes suck or not :||

I don't believe in waiting to see if its broken or not. People are still making these threads 'in case' they didn't think of the ideas yet. They could very well have the same bad idea system they brought about with the first class reform in order to introduce jobs.

Worth bearing in mind, that although at close of 1.0, jobs only added 5 abilities to the class, consider that the devs will have planned out character progression to level 99 (or whatever they've decided the game will eventually cap at).

If we get a +10 level cap raise every year or two, with another five abilities for each job, and three new jobs every year or two, that's a ton of new abilities and options coming in the future.

I imagine that classes will continue to be used twofold; as gateway to unlock one or more jobs and as a stronger solo option.

Personally, I would prefer the class specialization you've talked about to instead be a different job (eg from THM, both BLM and NEC), but that whole job progression thing is a discussion for elsewhere. I can see your point for wanting the base class to fulfil the role rather than adding more jobs, I just prefer the thought of more jobs. :)

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

boring topic is boring. Also, this "overhaul", as you know, effectively double the number of classes. While it seems a good thing, they'll also double the time testing new content before releasing, and for what ?

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Thank god for the Internet right ?! I mean, in real life if someone said the first part of your statement in a conversation you would get punched in the mouth for being an a-hole. But not on the forums, am I right !?

Ahhhh the Internet , housing cowards since 1969.

I like your ideas op, they help flesh out a system that needs it without ruining either class nor job. Don't listen to Joan Rivers up here. She just doesn't know how to act in public anymore

I'm reserving judgment until beta, but if their class and job overhauls are at what level you get abilities and how said abilities were re-worked, I'm not really going to be impressed. I'm still a huge proponent of how classes and jobs need to be separate enough identities that you would want to pick one over the other for specific situations, and all I'm seeing so far is how classes will probably be useful in PvP and that's about it.

I'm Kinda reserving judgement till beta but i have one comment.

With the op's examples of skills and progression it really doesnt work out any differently than totally detaching jobs from the armory system alltogether. you just just as easily have a seperate skill set from 1-20 as you do 20+

the advantage of seperating them entirely though means you have infinitely more diversity because each and every job can be built on a totally blank frame. where by keeping them connected a black mage will still be built on a thaumatage frame and thus be restricted to thaumatage mechanics of a sort.

Plus in the ops example everything that follows the thm path could pretty easily fit a red mage job frame.
in which case my arguement would be that it would be simply better to have 2 totally seperate jobs. blm and rdm, both independant from the other than to try and branch them both out from one frame

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Originally Posted by Reika

I don't believe in waiting to see if its broken or not.

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Agreed.
I believe in forming an opinion without seeing anything of solid facts of what is really going on.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'm Kinda reserving judgement till beta but i have one comment.

With the op's examples of skills and progression it really doesnt work out any differently than totally detaching jobs from the armory system alltogether. you just just as easily have a seperate skill set from 1-20 as you do 20+

the advantage of seperating them entirely though means you have infinitely more diversity because each and every job can be built on a totally blank frame. where by keeping them connected a black mage will still be built on a thaumatage frame and thus be restricted to thaumatage mechanics of a sort.

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Not neccicarily. The thaumaturge wont have the attack M potency increases, but instead will have debuff acc incteases and changes to its heals and ressurect. If you were a lvl50 Thm under this system and you equpped the soul of the black mage, your role would change entirely. I used THM as my main example because I would like THM to go back to being a healer class, tho not OP like it was in the beginning, and for BLM to be the DD 'class' not playing at all like you would a THM.

THM lore (and still as depicted on the ARR website) is debuffing with curses. BLM lore (also on ARR website) is weilding destructive magic. THM shouldnt be the destroyer, and BLM shouldnt be the curser, they should be different completely.

But yes, I know what your saying. I did before and still do believe the jobs should have leveled up independent of the classes, from 1-50, and thus be completely different than that which unlocks it. But, Its already too late for that lest they remove all current players jobs, and make us all unlock lvl1 jobs again. I however would not be against that at all.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'm Kinda reserving judgement till beta but i have one comment.

With the op's examples of skills and progression it really doesnt work out any differently than totally detaching jobs from the armory system alltogether. you just just as easily have a seperate skill set from 1-20 as you do 20+

the advantage of seperating them entirely though means you have infinitely more diversity because each and every job can be built on a totally blank frame. where by keeping them connected a black mage will still be built on a thaumatage frame and thus be restricted to thaumatage mechanics of a sort.

Plus in the ops example everything that follows the thm path could pretty easily fit a red mage job frame.
in which case my arguement would be that it would be simply better to have 2 totally seperate jobs. blm and rdm, both independant from the other than to try and branch them both out from one frame

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My idea is that if you really want to separate the two, do it at level 30 when you get the job. This could also help with them making multiple jobs off one class in the future if they ever want to go that route.

In the case of Gladiator, everything goes as normal until level 30, where after then, Gladiator starts gaining skills specific to its class and Paladin gets its own abilities. The whole job gets 5 abilities and the rest of its class's abilities wasn't too impressive IMO, but I guess it was the best they could do for a quick fix. I'm really curious to see where classes and jobs go in beta.

I have been thinking about this topic a bit over the past month or two. I have come to the conclusion that it would be wiser to focus on figuring out how to branch a class into two or three jobs without essentially making two or three identical jobs. The end result is not too dissimilar from what the OP proposes. The difference, however, is that the class/job dynamic would be closer to what it is now.

Using the THM example, if a THM was rebuilt such that it had its old debuff mechanics as well as its newer nuking mechanics, then the jobs would be built such that the soul of the Black Mage allows access to only the nuking mechanics of the THM, while the soul of the ... (Necromancer?) would allow access to only the debuff mechanics of the THM. There would likely be exceptions to this rule, and possibly a few spells or abilities only accessible to THM and/or other classes.

As such, what we have is a class that can play different ways, however the player wishes. From that we have multiple jobs that are unique, well-defined, and focused, designed to hone one aspect of the base class at the cost of another. That's how I feel about classes and jobs. Classes should have an array of play styles, while jobs act as the role-defining mechanic they were originally meant to be.

Why....?

Let the DEVs do their job. All we do is give them feedback.

No more overhauling the job/class system, it's fine!

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Originally Posted by PSxpert2011

Why....?

Let the DEVs do their job. All we do is give them feedback.

No more overhauling the job/class system, it's fine!

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No its not :/

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

Personally, I would prefer the class specialization you've talked about to instead be a different job (eg from THM, both BLM and NEC), but that whole job progression thing is a discussion for elsewhere. I can see your point for wanting the base class to fulfil the role rather than adding more jobs, I just prefer the thought of more jobs. :)

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I'm always surprised how many people I see advocating this idea. While it looks nice on the surface, I can't see it working fairly without a complete overhaul of the way classes and jobs are currently set up. To follow your example, let's say I'm a level 50 BLM but have never touched NEC. Now I go and unlock it and all of a sudden I'm a top level Necromancer. Why is that a problem? Other than the fact that the two jobs would be strikingly similar, balancing issues between classes.

Continuing with the example, we now have two full-fledged jobs stemming from Thaumaturge and tied in levels. That means that leveling THM is more worthwhile than leveling, say... ARC. How do we fix that? Well, now let's make ARC split into two paths too. BRD and... I dunno, RNG. Now we're in a situation where in order to make each class tree equally useful they need to think up two jobs for each class they add. People are already worried that the armory system limits the introduction of new jobs because they have to think up a new class for each one... and while the suggestion you gave is often cited as a fix, I think it compounds the problem. Think of SMN. What on earth could be its partner job? Arcanist really can't go into anything other than Summoner because it uses Carbuncle.

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Bah, I guess that wasn't really the point of OP's thread, so I'll try to be brief in getting back to what I wanted to say:
I like the current system. I think it works BECAUSE classes are comparatively weak. And while I agree there needs to be more distinction between jobs and classes, anything added to the class will also be added to the job, so it wouldn't accomplish that. I'm against the class having abilities the job won't inherit (other than cross-class). I like to think of classes as the level of expertise any normal person can achieve through hardwork (NPCs in the guilds), while jobs are only the few special, "gifted" elite (us players). Of course jobs are stronger.

That being said, I'm categorically in favor of added abilities, especially spells for mages. The number of different spells we have access to at the moment is depressing.

On a side note, I -NEVER- equipped my soul crystal while soloing as a Gladiator.

The Idea of classes was from the beginning as said by square, developed to carry multiple jobs. Eventually all the classes will start getting new jobs so they don't have to keep creating more classes for each new job they make. This of course is way down the road. So separating them like this would defeat the initial purpose of them. Because if they were separated they would just be called jobs again.

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Originally Posted by Xeia

I'm always surprised how many people I see advocating this idea. While it looks nice on the surface, I can't see it working fairly without a complete overhaul of the way classes and jobs are currently set up. To follow your example, let's say I'm a level 50 BLM but have never touched NEC. Now I go and unlock it and all of a sudden I'm a top level Necromancer. Why is that a problem? Other than the fact that the two jobs would be strikingly similar, balancing issues between classes.

Continuing with the example, we now have two full-fledged jobs stemming from Thaumaturge and tied in levels. That means that leveling THM is more worthwhile than leveling, say... ARC. How do we fix that? Well, now let's make ARC split into two paths too. BRD and... I dunno, RNG. Now we're in a situation where in order to make each class tree equally useful they need to think up two jobs for each class they add. People are already worried that the armory system limits the introduction of new jobs because they have to think up a new class for each one... and while the suggestion you gave is often cited as a fix, I think it compounds the problem. Think of SMN. What on earth could be its partner job? Arcanist really can't go into anything other than Summoner because it uses Carbuncle.

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Yup that was one of my points. on top of that though if you consider that later down the line every class has a new job added. then all of those new jobs are instantly max level. which ultimately seems likely to make levelling for newer players harder and harder. jun 2014 patch 2.x - we've added 8 new jobs (one per class) and everyone has them at max level almost immediately.

just doesnt really seem to make sense that way.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Thank god for the Internet right ?! I mean, in real life if someone said the first part of your statement in a conversation you would get punched in the mouth for being an a-hole. But not on the forums, am I right !?

Ahhhh the Internet , housing cowards since 1969.

I like your ideas op, they help flesh out a system that needs it without ruining either class nor job. Don't listen to Joan Rivers up here. She just doesn't know how to act in public anymore

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lmao, so true.

Not to mention just plain sounding geeky.

Way too much work at this point, and I think it would be better to just release new classes and jobs, probably take the same amount of time too.

Either get of jobs or get rid of classes...that will end all of the speculations.

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Originally Posted by Reika

For what is obvious, for classes to not be useless. I thought I made that clear.

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I don't understand the logic here the job is the class the class is the job :) so i don't see the point of separating the class. If i remember right the point of the class is for solo players and the job system is for partying.

So yes class is pretty much useless for full party base stuff but not for soloing / low manning so i don't see the point and they never going to do it. You said to someone else on here that the system is not fine will if it was not then i don't think SE would keep using it.

We playing there game not our game if you dislike this system then go play a wow-clone where you have to do a tree system. I don't see the issue here at all the job is the class the class is the job.

One is for soloing and the other is for partying so what the big deal? you just adding a dam stone to your class that give you 5 more spell big deal overall it still a class using the same dam spell you use you just now limit to only using 3 class vs the old system where it was use them all.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

You said to someone else on here that the system is not fine will if it was not then i don't think SE would keep using it.

We playing there game not our game if you dislike this system then go play a wow-clone where you have to do a tree system.

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God, I'm so sick of this. Whether I agree with the OP or not is irrelevant at this point.

Yes, SE will continue to use a bad system (perhaps without even KNOWING it's bad), if none of their players voice any objection to it. Reika did not throw a fit. She did not swear at the dev team. She has not demanded changes and threatened to quit over it. She has stated her opinion in an easy-to-follow manner, complete with examples, in a place where other players can see it and either agree with it, tweak it, or explain why they don't like it. This is exactly the type of feedback that makes a game. Don't tell her to go play another game because you don't like her opinion. Try instead posting something in favor of the current system that isn't "it's what we have, so it must be the absolute best way it possibly can be."

I'd much rather the players who can't write a respectful post leave XIV for WoW than those who post useful feedback for the devs.

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Originally Posted by Xeia

Whether I agree with the OP or not, can't really ignore this.

Yes, SE will continue to use a system, regardless of how awful (without even KNOWING it's awful), if none of their players voice any objection to it. Reika did not throw a fit. She did not swear at the dev team. She has not demanded changes and threatened to quit over it. She has stated her opinion in an easy-to-follow manner, complete with examples, in a place where other players can see it and either agree with it, tweak it, or explain why they don't like it. This is exactly the type of feedback that makes a game. Try instead posting something in favor of the current system that isn't "it's what we have, so it must be the absolute best way it possibly can be."

I'd much rather the players who can't write a respectful post leave XIV for WoW than those who post useful feedback for the devs.

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The problem is the person want to cut the class from the job when it's not even needed. A job would be noting without the class it just be 5 spells and AF and Relic weps. You have pretty end up with clones of the class two of everything that does not sound like a great idea.

Yoshi-p said the point of class is for people who want to solo and low man stuff. With Class you can use any spell and a lancer can back up heal without issue. The job was for party and making the class a lock role that what everyone was asking for 1year ago oh everyone can be anything we want jobs like FFXI where a white mage is the main healer and PLD is a tank. So yoshi-p made the job system and it working out just fine i don't see any issue with it.

I wish they just took off the class system all together so people wont make topic like this. Because it seem people are still confuse what is a class and what is a job.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

So yes class is pretty much useless for full party base stuff but not for soloing / low manning.

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Just to be brief. Classes were also "pretty much useless" for soloing / low man. Thats a fairly accurate reason behind why tbey were almost never used in 1.0. There are dozens of examples of why jobs solod/lowmand better than classes in 1.0
thats why this subject keeps coming up.

If ARR sees the same trends between class/job that 1.0 did then it'll still be a huge problem and classes will still never be used.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

The problem is the person want to cut the class from the job when it's not even needed. A job would be noting without the class it just be 5 spells and AF and Relic weps. You have pretty end up with clones of the class two of everything that does not sound like a great idea.

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Many would say that is exactly what the problem is. A class and its job are pretty much identical. for the most part a job can do everything its respective class can do and more.

Sure a warrior can't cure or stoneskin or invigorate. but throughout 1.0 the simple fact was it just didnt need to. what it lost in defense it more than made up for in offence. and every job was pretty much the same

im holding out again to see how it gooes in ARR really.

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Originally Posted by Xeia

I'm always surprised how many people I see advocating this idea. While it looks nice on the surface, I can't see it working fairly without a complete overhaul of the way classes and jobs are currently set up. To follow your example, let's say I'm a level 50 BLM but have never touched NEC. Now I go and unlock it and all of a sudden I'm a top level Necromancer. Why is that a problem? Other than the fact that the two jobs would be strikingly similar, balancing issues between classes.

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From 1.0, there's questing to unlock the class which involves a pre-req of having advanced with a different class. This adds flavour and reason as to why you've attempted that specialization. There's then a series of quests and group battles to unlock the abilities and gain the AF, so whereas you may be a lv. 50 Necromancer, you'd not be as nearly top-level as you would be after investing the time to complete the additional content keyed to the job.

I honestly do expect that this is what we'll see in future. There has been a stated desire to reduce time spent levelling (ie multiple jobs) for a focus on end-game content. And yes, I do suppose the partner job for BRD will be RNG, SMN will have a parity with... PUP..? MECHACARBUNCLE!!!

I do hope classes remain the forte of the single-player experience (due to cross-class skills) so they remain relevant throughout the ARR experience.

I disagree with the thought of classes being made to be weaker than jobs intentionally. The team was rushed, had very little to work with, and way too many client limitations. Jobs were introduced with their names as they are mainly because people wanted that nostalgia. There is nothing wrong with classes being separate entities. One limitation being the ability to even add more classes, or new things to level up. Which I feel is why we have class-job locking in the first place. I was always against not having to level up the job separately from lvl 1 after you unlock it. With ARR's lack of or reduced limitations on what they can do, they can make things right.

The idea of More than one job branching off of current classes only means there will be little to nothing to level up in coming expansions, and in order for it to not be broken and/or stupid, they would have to overhaul every class to preform different skills than jobs anyways, or else every job is going to be the same thing with different names if it comes from the same class. Such as DRK also coming from GLD will be a take UNLESS they overhaul glad to not be an extreme tank by itself, but only change to extreme tank if you are on PLD, and be something else if you are on DRK. But then they would have to follow my above example anyways in order to achieve that. The class would have to be different than the job. The Idea of branching more than one job from each class also ensures that there will be little to nothing to level up once a new job is announced. I for one do not want to be instanta lvl50 at expansion time, and don't even have to play that new job in order to lvl cap it.

There also no reason to assume that classes cant or shouldn't take on party roles. Class and job are just names. We call WHM, WAR, and the others JOBS because other FF titles they were part of a JOB system, and after the class reforms, classes took on party roles WITHOUT the presence of jobs. But remember that none of those other titles had more than one CLASS beyond squire if you would call that a class or 'that player'. It was always one thing until they got a job crystal or lvled up enough to become a different job. FFXIV's classes could be made to have roles of their own, however their roles should not be Identical to the jobs that branch off of them.

So if you look at it from a logical perspective, there are no jobs in FFXIV, only classes and advanced classes. With a reform to separate the class from job, there will no longer be 8 classes and 8 advanced classes, but 16 classes to use in a party. Each and every one could be balanced to be able to solo, as they all already are, but not be the same like they are now, and still have their own roles in Parties and raids.


This is not about going back to being able to cross class every ability and be a god. This is about helping classes have more usability besides these rare solo cases. Yes overhauls take time. Unfortunantly they will inevitably have to overhaul classes and jobs multiple times as they add new classes, new jobs, and new content. Especialy if they plan to branch more than one job off of one class. Overhauling will be needed. Else, what can the next JOB to branch off of THM be but another BLM without the ancient magic that uses the exact same weaponry? Ancient magic is not what makes the BLM, its all the other fire/ice/lightning/other elemental magic - which is learned by the THM under this poor system, not the BLM - that makes the BLM.

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Originally Posted by Allistar

Either get of jobs or get rid of classes...that will end all of the speculations.

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Can we give up on making this suggestion?

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Originally Posted by Reika

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I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

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Thats a pretty good way of putting it. it's kinda what i was trying to say below but not quite worded so well :P

But yeah the further you try and push classes/ jobs into different roles / styles the more you lose any reason to connect them at all

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'm Kinda reserving judgement till beta but i have one comment.

With the op's examples of skills and progression it really doesnt work out any differently than totally detaching jobs from the armory system alltogether. you just just as easily have a seperate skill set from 1-20 as you do 20+

the advantage of seperating them entirely though means you have infinitely more diversity because each and every job can be built on a totally blank frame. where by keeping them connected a black mage will still be built on a thaumatage frame and thus be restricted to thaumatage mechanics of a sort.

Plus in the ops example everything that follows the thm path could pretty easily fit a red mage job frame.
in which case my arguement would be that it would be simply better to have 2 totally seperate jobs. blm and rdm, both independant from the other than to try and branch them both out from one frame

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Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.

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I would say the answer would be to make gaining job abilities/traits/etc something you have to invest time into. Something more substantial than a questline. Say at 30 gladiator you unlock Paladin and level to 50. You unlock everything on Paladin as your leveling but at the end of it you then want to play Dark Knight. Rather than everything being given to you in a few quests you have to do the same/similar amount of work into unlocking Dark Knight's skills as you did Paladin's. For example a merit point like system for paying for abilities etc.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

I feel as strongly as you do on this topic. However, I see things a little differently. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I see the solution differently. You suggest that the class be redefined such that it has little to no resemblance to its job. Is that accurate? My issue with that notion is that it ultimately renders the class/job (or class/advanced class) dynamic useless. Whether it's a JOB or an Advanced Class, it's related to the base class. If the class and job share almost no similarities, even to the point of having different roles, then that relationship ceases to exist, as does the need to have a relationship between them.

If, however, the class is redefined such that it can choose from two or more roles, or even a hybrid role, then the door is opened for the multiple jobs per class dynamic. If, for example, the Gladiator is rebuilt such that it can be a good tank, or a good dps, or even do a decent job at both, then we can define the jobs (PLD and DRK, per se) such that the Paladin enhances (and is limited to) the Gladiator's tankability at the cost of it's ability to dps. The opposite would be true for the Dark Knight. Now, what we end up with is one class that can play different roles, and two jobs that play completely differently from each other, even if they share some skills.

The only drawback to this is the "instant 50" problem. I completely understand why people wouldn't like this, but when the alternative is being forced to level from 1 again, I'll accept being lv 50, mainly since it draws on the base class for much of its skills and it doesn't make sense to suddenly not know them anymore. I wish I had a better solution for it, but I do not.

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My thoughts are however that the class and the job should very well be different. There shouldn't be advanced classes, there should be this class and then that class. They might as well just eliminate classes all together and keep the advanced classes if they keep up with the current system. The system is going to need that major overhaul whether we like it or not in order to not be utterly stupid. With the current system, GLD -> PLD or GLD -> DRK will both = tank. They wouldn't have different roles if they were both attached to gladiator. The skill set of gladiator determines this. 5 measly skills added to DRK that try to focus on damage would just make it a garbage tank. They would have to majorly overhaul gladiator in order for it to change accordingly, or just not use gladiator at all. The same holds for all the classes. I think the one that can get away with not changing is archer, since all but 1 of the songs come from the BRD class quests. The rest, the 'JOB' is mostly defined by the class skills, and not really the 5 measly skills they thought would define them. This is why it all needs to change. The class cant be the same as the job or there cant be any class -> multi-job system.

And yes there is the insta-50 think that I and (idk how many) others wouldn't want. While they are better off adding a new class for each and every new job, classes still cant be too similar to the job or else the class will continue to be totally worthless.

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Originally Posted by Alaltus

I would say the answer would be to make gaining job abilities/traits/etc something you have to invest time into. Something more substantial than a questline. Say at 30 gladiator you unlock Paladin and level to 50. You unlock everything on Paladin as your leveling but at the end of it you then want to play Dark Knight. Rather than everything being given to you in a few quests you have to do the same/similar amount of work into unlocking Dark Knight's skills as you did Paladin's. For example a merit point like system for paying for abilities etc.

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That's actually a pretty good idea. I like it.

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Originally Posted by Reika

My thoughts are however that the class and the job should very well be different. There shouldn't be advanced classes, there should be this class and then that class. They might as well just eliminate classes all together and keep the advanced classes if they keep up with the current system. The system is going to need that major overhaul whether we like it or not in order to not be utterly stupid. With the current system, GLD -> PLD or GLD -> DRK will both = tank. They wouldn't have different roles if they were both attached to gladiator. The skill set of gladiator determines this. 5 measly skills added to DRK that try to focus on damage would just make it a garbage tank. They would have to majorly overhaul gladiator in order for it to change accordingly, or just not use gladiator at all. The same holds for all the classes. I think the one that can get away with not changing is archer, since all but 1 of the songs come from the BRD class quests. The rest, the 'JOB' is mostly defined by the class skills, and not really the 5 measly skills they thought would define them. This is why it all needs to change. The class cant be the same as the job or there cant be any class -> multi-job system.

And yes there is the insta-50 think that I and (idk how many) others wouldn't want. While they are better off adding a new class for each and every new job, classes still cant be too similar to the job or else the class will continue to be totally worthless.

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You effectively nailed why multiple jobs per class wouldn't work in the 1.0 system. I completely agree. The last thing I want to see is a garbage DRK tank. It appears the only real options are:

1. Leave it as is (1 class, 1 job)
2. Multiple jobs per class (requiring another class overhaul to make it work)
3. Completely separate classes and jobs (effectively eliminating one or the other, also requiring an overhaul)

They all have merits and drawbacks, and the community as a whole will probably never agree on which is best. That's why I believe SE will opt to not change anything. Like you, I wouldn't agree with that move, but I doubt it'll stop me from playing. If I must level an entirely different class just so I can play a Dark Knight, so be it.

This thread at this moment is the equivalent to me making a thread saying DRG does too much damage and should be nerfed. The problem with this is I do not know how much damage DRG does because I have not seen or played DRG in the 2.0 version. Just like how the OP said that classes are bad. Yeah they were pretty bad in 1.0, but abilities and traits are going to be changed in 2.0 to accommodate for the new battle system. As already stated in this thread, before an overhaul should even be considered we should see how classes play out in 2.0.

Jobs were and always are meant to excel in each respective role while being restricted in other aspects. The concept of a class is to have more customization for solo play.

Why would you ever want a Paladin and a Dark Knight to stem from the same class? Why does that seem to be a go-to example? Forget their FF lore for a second -- in terms of gameplay, they're pretty extreme opposites. I can't think of many skills I'd be happy with them sharing.

I have plenty to say against classing getting more than one job, but that seems to be a second argument. And it's not what OP was getting at.

So here's my suggestion. It's simple enough that it can actually be conceivably done without changing the way anything works:

• Balance the stats between jobs and their respective classes. Jobs should have more specialized bonuses (specialized, not stronger) while classes have a more even spread. But balanced means balanced in terms of application, not that they have a mathematically equal sum. These spread out stats have to actually give the classes some benefit rather than just making them less competent and their job's role.
• Increase the number of job-earned abilities. I'll use 10 as an example here, though the actual number would have to be tweaked to find a good balance.
• Give jobs a small number of free slots to take skills from its two partner-classes. We'll say 5. Jobs retain use of all of their class skills.
• Since jobs have 15 abilities outside what they inherit from their class (10 job abilities, 5 free slots), give classes 15-20 free slots. Again, I don't care about the actual numbers, but just gernally. Give them a bunch. Enough to make up for the fact that job-specific skills are stronger.
• Obviously, classes would need enough abilities that were unique to them and their job in order to stop all classes basically being able to achieve the same or similar ability spread.

Yes, I'm fully aware that that's basically how it's set up right now.. my point is this: The idea that jobs are highly-specialized and incredibly powerful within their specific role, while classes are far more versatile and sport increased flexibility in solo or low-man situations is fine. What is bad about it is simply what everyone's already pointed out -- that isn't how it works.

So why not just push what we have a little further in either direction instead of going crazy with overhauls? I'm very optimistic that, come ARR, we will see a... manifestation of this sentiment, in one form or another. Make jobs even more specialized than they were -- they should stand very distinct from their classes once they're fully developed (through the use of more than a measly 5 unique skills). But actually make classes as versatile as you promised us they are. Hell, in completing the class-specific quest why not award me a bonus when I'm on that class without a soul crystal equipped and without a party?

Make me WANT to solo without my job on, SE.

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Originally Posted by Xeia

Why would you ever want a Paladin and a Dark Knight to stem from the same class? Why does that seem to be a go-to example? Forget their FF lore for a second -- in terms of gameplay, they're pretty extreme opposites. I can't think of many skills I'd be happy with them sharing..

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The original idea way back when. was to give "gladiators" a dps option in a party where a tank is already present / not needed.

it has on occassion even been "loosly" mentioned by devs. so it tends to be a good and common example of the problems with the old system. (i say old as i havent played arr but i do hope there are changes in it)

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Originally Posted by Dzian

...it has on occassion even been "loosly" mentioned by devs. so it tends to be a good and common example of the problems with the old system...

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I can't find the post, but I believe Yoshi-P may have used it in an example. Whether it was him or just a dev, it spoke pretty loudly that the thought is on their minds.

So, instead of bitching about how I think Dark Knight would fit better with Marauder, I decided to consider how it might fit with Gladiator. Then it hit me. What if Gladiator could use both 1-handed and 2-handed swords. They are, in essence, a 'sword user'. Does that necessarily restrict it to 1-handed swords? I can't see why it would.

Including 2-handers into their weaponry, Gladiator branching to Dark Knight suddenly isn't such a stretch. This is given PLD is restricted to 1-handed, and DRK is restricted to 2-handed, and each type of sword has its own weapon skills. We will have to see what SE decides to do.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseLallaise

I can't find the post, but I believe Yoshi-P may have used it in an example. Whether it was him or just a dev, it spoke pretty loudly that the thought is on their minds.

So, instead of bitching about how I think Dark Knight would fit better with Marauder, I decided to consider how it might fit with Gladiator. Then it hit me. What if Gladiator could use both 1-handed and 2-handed swords. They are, in essence, a 'sword user'. Does that necessarily restrict it to 1-handed swords? I can't see why it would.

Including 2-handers into their weaponry, Gladiator branching to Dark Knight suddenly isn't such a stretch. This is given PLD is restricted to 1-handed, and DRK is restricted to 2-handed, and each type of sword has its own weapon skills. We will have to see what SE decides to do.

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You can give GLD a 2h weapon, but that wouldn't change its skillset which has too many shield based abilities, all defensive based abilities, no aoe attacks, and no really powerful weaponskills other than what Dark Knight job skills would have. So you 10 or so abilities become useless with a greatsword equipped and not tanking, 5 cross class skills are lost, and all you gain are 5 abilities. Thats not going to work either - without an overhaul of gladiator.

5 abilities pertaining to the job is what kills any ability to do any of that. Only a Overhaul can make it happen.

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Originally Posted by Reika

You can give GLD a 2h weapon, but that wouldn't change its skillset which has too many shield based abilities, all defensive based abilities, no aoe attacks, and no really powerful weaponskills other than what Dark Knight job skills would have. So you 10 or so abilities become useless with a greatsword equipped and not tanking, 5 cross class skills are lost, and all you gain are 5 abilities. Thats not going to work either - without an overhaul of gladiator.

5 abilities pertaining to the job is what kills any ability to do any of that. Only a Overhaul can make it happen.

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As I've stated before, I totally agree class overhaul would be necessary, and that is an implied fact in my previous comment. Just giving a 2-handed sword to Gladiator implies some kind of overhaul. Just so we're clear, my stance is that the only scenario where class overhaul is not necessary would be if SE continued with the 1 class, 1 job mechanic.