Flagging Quests vs Finding Quests

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Thesis (TL,DR): If we could complete quests and get rewards from them without having them flagged, Questing (in terms of WoW) would be optional, and Exploration would be King.


I'm not sure what MMOs do their quests like this. If they have, I haven't heard of it yet. I'm talking about the way the Elder Scrolls RPGs - Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind - handle their quests. Very similar to the way MMO's do them, but I can see one key difference:

Even if you don't have the quest flagged, you can still complete a quest.

Let's say you're out and about, exploring the wilderness for no particular reason, and you happen upon a Beastman camp. You're feeling awesomely awesome and decide to wipe the suckers out. Oh no! Their leader pops out of his hole and suddenly you've got a boss fight on your hands! You didn't plan on this at all. It's a really tough fight, but you pull through because you're awesome at your job. You loot the bodies, poke around the camp for anything cool, and then move on.

In WoW/MMO's/modern quest system (also 2.0/ARR's, to my knowledge), if you do this, you often get nothing of importance, only later to find out that the boss was indeed a quest mob, and there's actually 3-4 quests involved in that camp that you would've completed had you flagged them. Wow! You just wasted your time by exploring and poking your head around without having quests flagged! You feel really bummed and realize that you should just quest from now on, or you might miss out on some cool stuff. You never go out exploring again, (unless it's achievement related.)

In Skyrim/Oblivion/Morrowind's quest system, if you were to do something like this, you get the loot and clear the quests in question regardless - you just don't know it yet. Only when you head in to town and talk around do you realize, "Oh hey, that boss you want me to kill? Already did that. Reward please." You feel pretty awesome about this happy accident. You endeavor to go exploring more often. Who knows what you might end up finding?

Were FFXIV:ARR to allow for this, IMO, the whole necessity of simply doing quests in succession would fall apart. Questing would become optional. Players could go and do what they wanted, and if they needed some direction, THEN they would grab quests. But trekking out into the wild blue yonder would be an adventure and just as rewarding.

Or think about it this way. You grab one quest that says to kill 5 squirrels, not knowing that there's also a quest to kill 5 crabs, who happen to be intermingled with the squirrels. No biggie! You're killing both them anyway, so you complete both quests. User-friendly! MAGIC!

And to top it off, doing something like this wouldn't be that difficult to implement. Right?

Why don't MMO's do this? What could be the downside to such a system? (serious question, I can't think of any)

Is there an MMO that does already? How does it play?

I think that be pretty but to do they have to add a system or redo all the quest to make work. Maybe they can find a loop hole to make this idea work but i just don't see it happening anytime soon. Most of quest in ARR are mobs that spawn from tree and such by the look of the low level one.

Let's hope they add this idea seem pretty cool and be pretty awesome going in a dungeon and you still can turn in the quest without flagging it.

I don't really like it.
What's important in quests is the story behind it, not the reward.
Sure, your way you'd get the reward for something you did without knowing it had to be done, but you never actually experience the story behind it.
Looking at it from a logical side:
Why would anyone reward you for killing that boss?
If you have the quest flagged, it means you are the "chosen" one to go and kill the beast.
If you return, people have a reason to reward you.
But why should they reward you for killing it if they haven't even asked you to kill it in the first place?


What I'd actually DO like is having to poke around to find quests.
As in no signs above the head, no "search quests" option in the questlog. But I'm not seriously gonna propose that because I know most people hate it :)

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Originally Posted by Atoli

I don't really like it.
What's important in quests is the story behind it, not the reward.
Sure, your way you'd get the reward for something you did without knowing it had to be done, but you never actually experience the story behind it.
Looking at it from a logical side:
Why would anyone reward you for killing that boss?
If you have the quest flagged, it means you are the "chosen" one to go and kill the beast.
If you return, people have a reason to reward you.
But why should they reward you for killing it if they haven't even asked you to kill it in the first place?


What I'd actually DO like is having to poke around to find quests.
As in no signs above the head, no "search quests" option in the questlog. But I'm not seriously gonna propose that because I know most people hate it :)

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That's a valid point.

But I feel that if it's done right, there could still be story. It'd just be a little bit more anti-climactic on your end.

Wife: "OH WOE IS ME! My husband was killed by the Ukgingthar! A foul spider-like creature with porous skin and oozing nostrils! (Beware its paralyzing kneecaps!). WHO will help me and avenge my husbands death??"

Option 1 (Did not kill):
Me: "YES! I will go do it for a damsel in distress, ANY DAY! Now stop crying, fair buxom lady!" *dashes out*

Option 2 (Already killed):
Me: "Oh, Ukin-magoozin-fart? I killed it on my way here. He was kinda in the way."

Wife: "BRAVE SOUL! YOU HAVE DONE ME A GREAT SERVICE! MY HUSBAND MAY REST IN PEACE, AND SO WILL I!"

I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing.

And I do think some quests should require that you flag them first. Particularly the important ones. But it's the run-of-the-mill quests I'm referring to.

At first i thought this was another thread complaining about NPCs having the orange (!) on top of them LIKE IF 1.0 DIDN'T DO THAT BUT INSTEAD WAS A WHITE CLOUD!!!...anyways i guess this could work

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Originally Posted by Warlock

LIKE IF 1.0 DIDN'T DO THAT

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When 1.0 started, it had no such clouds actually :3
They were put in much later, like patch 1.19, because people complained they couldn't find quests without it ;)

On-Topic:
I thought you meant for real quests, OP.
I wouldn't mind it for 'normal' quests, like someone sending you to gather 12 marmot fur and you can be like "yeah ehm..I already have them." But I'd absolutely hate it for quests involving a real story.

It would perhaps make repeatable daily quests (should ever such a thing be inflicted on this poor game) not viable. Which is a good thing.

And yes, I agree strongly with your idea Denmo. It's not irregular that you end up at a quest hub, do a ton of quests, return and hand them in, only for one of the follow-on quests to send you back out to where you had just been to kill some things that you had just killed for someone else. I'm looking at you Alpha, but this happens in most questy MMOs.

another way could also be that items that you happen to find while exploration can trigger quests.

like in the OP scenario you get some document (rare/ex) after killing the boss containing references to a quest.

That'd be a pretty good idea for the simple and shallow exp. quests, I guess. I like it.

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Originally Posted by Phe

another way could also be that items that you happen to find while exploration can trigger quests.

like in the OP scenario you get some document (rare/ex) after killing the boss containing references to a quest.

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This would be pretty cool, too, but people would then cry for the exact item and the location of said boss to be pointed out for them in obvious fashion (gigantic golden markers, anyone?), completely defeating the purpose of your idea. :/

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Originally Posted by Klefth

That'd be a pretty good idea for the simple and shallow exp. quests, I guess. I like it.



This would be pretty cool, too, but people would then cry for the exact item and the location of said boss to be pointed out for them in obvious fashion (gigantic golden markers, anyone?), completely defeating the purpose of your idea. :/

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could also be a random drop. escpecially in areas that are not so frequently visited.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

It would perhaps make repeatable daily quests (should ever such a thing be inflicted on this poor game) not viable. Which is a good thing.

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Those repeatable daily quests were already in 1.x. They were called "Grand Company supply & provisions missions".

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Originally Posted by Phe

could also be a random drop. escpecially in areas that are not so frequently visited.

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Kinda like some of XI's pop items, maybe? That'd be cool.

This idea adds a convenience and increases the likliehood that I will explore without chaining myself to following the quest structure. I would love this idea for the sole purpose of being to just go out and explore to my limits while the whole time thinking that I will probably be rewarded for this, rather than feeling like I have to pay for exploring by not picking up quests and being told what to do and where to go.

Alas traditional MMO quests should be scrapped entirely in favor of using those resources for more unique missions that FFXI was known for.

All you need to do to implement this idea is change how quest conditions are satified. It's actually a fairly easy thing to do, no need to overcomplicate things by requiring items for all quests. They won't do it though, too out of the box for them most likely.

Interesting idea. I'm fine with either way. I'd most likely pick up the quest first either way. The joy of exploring is the only reward I need to get me to explore. I don't need potential quest rewards to get me to check some place out.

I like your idea a lot actually. I hate quest based leveling, but getting credit for something I happened to do would be great. Of course this won't really work for every quest, but I think it would make the Kill this, Find this, non-story Boss fight quests better.

The biggest problem I could see, is having to make secondary quest starts for ever quest this works with.

For Kill Quests, we would need something to the effect of, "There seems to be an abnormally large amount of these, if no one thins out the crowd, it could cause problems for nearby towns. After finishing report to the town official."

This is something Lord of the Rings Online has recently introduced with their latest expansion pack. It is a great way to cut out the constant travel in and out of town brought on by quest leveling and does worlds to extend time in the field. The one major draw back is that is severely inhibits Story-lines.

I think the effective fix would to always have a followup quest waiting at the NPC. "Yes, we had noticed the over bearing number of enemies. Would you mind exploring this place to try and find the source of the problem?"

Find quests are the easiest one. The elder scrolls method of "This looks interesting maybe someone knows something about it."

I, personally, would insist that this kind of quest require you to seek out an NPC to identify it and point you to the person who is interested in the item. "This odd flower seems interesting, maybe someone at the botanists guild knows something about it."

Boss quests are a little more complicated. The game would need a way to track your kill without having the quest ready. I think this could be solved using the Achievement systems base functionality. I'm not saying every boss should have an achievement, but that there could be an invisible tracking system that registers to your character that you have killed this enemy.

When you happen across the Quest NPC, instead of the normal, "This guy is causing trouble go take care of it.", you get, "So your the one who took care of that guy. I can't thank you enough. This town will be forever grateful."

As I said before though, there are some quests this cannot work with. NPC escorts of course can't have this kind of auto-start.

The other thing that comes to mind is quests that involve an NPC asking you to examine locations. I don't think you should be able to go to these locations in advance. If for no other reason, because your character does not know what he's looking for. It just does not feel right that you could just happen to notice every thing that every one would be interested in. An Item is one thing, its peculiar, you can put it in your inventory. But exploring some statue, sure you can look at it, but you don't really know what details about it would be relevant to another person.

All that said, I agree with your idea, but SE would have to put in the effort to not allow it to impact the quality of their quests.

It's really a great idea! However it should never be done with obtainable items (which go into inventory), cause i don't wanna go like: can't sell this or that, maybe it's for a quest...
But when we can do quests inbefore, it should also be possible to fail quests before accepting them. Like "go kill boss monster x, but don't kill y or activate trigger z" so if you did x, y and z you can't complete the quest and have to reset it. That's the best idea ever :D

One thing I think you guys might be missing here is the programing side of this. In order to implement such a thing you would need some sort of tracking system that tracks everything you kill. The current system relies on "flagging" (or triggering the event scenario) then following its required guidelines.

Your proposal suggests a system in which everything you kill is tallied up and stored within the questing log and then as you speak to an NPC the quest is removed from the list. So in theory when you start the game all quests must be in the triggered mode, and you would just claim the reward as you spoke to the NPC. This is actually quite difficult because your character would be carrying an overabundance of data. This is not possible with the current system (carrying too much data) because certain quests require completion of other quests.

(I say this because I know some of you might be thinking well, what if I went out and flagged all the quests I could possibly muster.)

To my knowledge I even recall reading something where it says you can only carry a max of 5 quests at a given time? Or maybe it only shows you have 5 quests at any given time? The reason for these types of things is to cut back on lag, one of the main reasons FFXIV even needed to be "Reborn" in the first place. (Server lag)

(I just also would like to say I agree finding stuff on your own is fun and rewarding, if there truly was a way to make a game rewarding to adventure yet also didnt leave people in the complete dark as to what to do, then we would have a great game indeed. Problem, like i mentioned, is the limitation of cost/equipment to allow gaming companies to produce a cost effective game, that runs smoothly.)

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

One thing I think you guys might be missing here is the programing side of this. In order to implement such a think you would need some sort of tracking system that tracks everything you kill. The current system relies on "flagging" (or triggering the event scenario) then following its required guidelines.

Your proposal suggests a system in which everything you kill is tallied up and stored within the questing log and then as you speak to an NPC the quest is removed from the list. So in theory when you start the game all quests must be in the triggered mode, and you would just claim the reward as you spoke to the NPC. This is actually quite difficult because your character would be carrying an overabundance of data. This is not possible with the current system (carrying too much data) because certain quests require completion of other quests.

(I say this because I know some of you might be thinking well, what if I went out and flagged all the quests I could possibly muster.)

To my knowledge I even recall reading something where it says you can only carry a max of 5 quests at a given time? Or maybe it only shows you have 5 quests at any given time? The reason for these types of things is to cut back on lag, one of the main reasons FFXIV even needed to be "Reborn" in the first place. (Server lag)

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That's where one of the suggestions made in this thread would come in: items. Make this sort of quests tied with certain specific items that you might encounter here or there while killing stuff somewhere. Kinda like when you were killing stuff somewhere in XI and you got an odd ra/ex item that could later on be used for a quest, for example.

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Originally Posted by Klefth

That's where one of the suggestions made in this thread would come in: items. Make this sort of quests tied with certain specific items that you might encounter here or there while killing stuff somewhere. Kinda like when you were killing stuff somewhere in XI and you got an odd ra/ex item that could later on be used for a quest, for example.

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Very true, but I played FFXI, and if you ran out of inventory room (which happened 100% of the time) you would have to drop an item you received. Thus leading to you having to do the very thing you just did to obtain the item in the first place. Which leads us back to the limitation of the amount of data a character can carry around :/

I actually love Op's idea. In another MMO that I have been using for my withdraws... I would explore a given area and complete the whole place and then come back and the next quest was to complete the whole thing -.- So i have to redo it. It annoyed me to no tomorrow. I love exploring, and cant stop myself from doing it... It would be nice to be able to explore an area and not have to go back later just because you found out there was actually a quest for that. I do understand the time it would take to program it too... But it would be a great feature to have to the game.

Ah another thought RQ

I was just thinking about Bahamuts Labyrinth, and if its done right it possibly could satisfy the adventurers appetite.

What people get out of exploring is the reward and the finding of wonderous places to look at.

The labyrinth could have multiple corners and turns, almost like a maze, but not a place you could get "lost" in. While exploring the labyrinth you could find chests, some could hold something pitiful such as 100 gil, or maybe a animal skin. While other chests could hold much grander items and gil such as maybe 1-5k gil, and maybe half a stack of a rare crafting item, or maybe even a great item such as a rare untradeable piece of gear. These chests might require a full party to get to and would be difficult.

You could also possibly find deep within the cavern a very nice place, such as a waterfall or some other nice looking place to view. Maybe really go all out, and make it a sanctuary? It could include maybe a special Moogle shop that sells items at a discounted price? Something like in FFXII, the Baknamy Merchant in the Nechrohol of Nabudis :D

Additional notes: The chests could appear at random places and once obtained they disappear until a specified amount of time (time would be in relation to the balancing system decided by SE.) They have a percentage of how often they can appear in certain rotation. For instance: Chest A could appear behind the powerful monsters and contain the best items 99% of the time, but 1% of the time it could appear in the complete open or the sanctuary. They could either have set locations in which they appear or have an area percentage. (all relation to lag prevention and balancing per SE.)

^ could also solve this issue?

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

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I do like how they did that with most TES games, and wouldn't mind seeing it happen in the MMO world. Tho it would only work with the ones where enemies have items of known/unknown importance on their person that dont require special entry into the area they happen to be in.

I am wondering if TESO will have the same setup as its single player priors.