Peer-to-Peer immersive voice communication

This thread is for the devs to see because it's really (and I mean really) technical, but any discussion will be welcomed as well of course.

So I was looking for papers to use as reference for my current work, and I bumped into this one, and as it's more or less recent, (it was presented in ICPADS 2011 conference, in Tainan, Taiwan), I thought maybe the devs didn't knew about it:

Peer-to-Peer Immersive Voice Communication for Massively Multiplayer Online Games (It's a IEEExplore link, so unless you have an account or access from some University you cannot access the full text, but I'm sure Square Enix has plenty of engineers who have IEEE accounts).

So in short, this paper presents a system to include voice chat in MMO's without being a source hog, quoting from the introduction of the paper:

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Text chat is the most common way for players to exchange messages with each other by keyboard typing, which will distract players from the gameplay. With the richer and richer game content media and gameplay styles, voice chat may be a better way of communication.

[...]

Currently, most MMOGs are based on the client/server architecture, which has the inherent limitation on scalability due to the constraint on available network bandwidth and computing resources. In such a case, additional voice transmission will seriously degrade the scalability of the MMOGs. Third-party voice communication software, such
as TeamSpeak, Skype and Ventrilo, may be a transitional solution to meet the needs of voice communication in MMOGs. However, when using these kinds of software programs, users have to manually solicit members of a collaborative team or a special community to form a conversation group. These third-party voice programs lack the mechanism to synchronize with the states of games. When the game state changes, the users have to manually adapt their contact list of the voice communication program to fit the dynamic conditions of the games. Moreover, the
programs are also based on the server/client architecture and thus suffer from the scalability problem.

[...]

In this paper, we propose a peer-to-peer voice communication scheme, called immersive voice communication (IVC), to provide MMOG players with the immersive experience to hear the voice of neighbor players within the area of interest (AOI). For a player, its AOI is the area of a circle centered at it of a fixed radius, and it only interacts with other players within the area. By observing human behavior, we have found that a person usually intentionally ignore the surrounding sound when he/she
focuses on a specific voice. Therefore, a player’s AOI neighbors are classified into two categories: the listener, who focuses on listening to the player, and the overhearer, who just overhears the talk of the player. In is noted that the latter consumes much less bandwidth than the former, which can be utilized to reduce the traffic load. We also develop a relation model for a player to determine which AOI neighbor to listen to according to the criteria such as the distance, orientation, and social relationship among the players. IVC is constructed on the basis of the peer-to-peer (P2P) overlay network. It can be integrated into existing MMOGs to render them with the voice communication ability without causing too much additional loads to them.

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I won't quote more, because the rest is just technical stuff about how they achieve that and some early experimental results that look really promising, if anyone wants more info I'll gladly explain the stuff a bit more deeply, but with those fragments from the introduction I think it will be enough to give the general idea.

Anyway, I would for sure LOVE to see this implemented in FFXIV ARR, but as always, with a toggle on/off option, because we know not everyone is always as polite as they should be, but this would add a lot of immersion and depth on the game.

http://kotaku.com/5720506/its-not-ea...ld-of-warcraft

I know it's not for me and I have no discussion about it because it's what most of you guys want it but I'll be watching this thread...

Interesting info, sounds like neat tech...

but if you look through previous discussions on the topic/Yoshi's quotes you'll realize that even though it's technically possible, they don't want to officially incorporate in-game voice chat for various reasons. they prefer groups/free companies reach an agreement with third party programs if they want to use it

It is interesting, as peer to peer doesn't place much additional strain on the server, and the client terminal normally has a crapton of bandwidth to spare (unless the user is torrenting porn, I guess). Of course it would have to be opt-in, as many don't enjoy the chatter, or to be heard themselves.

It would be especially useful for controller users, as reaching for your keyboard in certain situations is not exactly practical.

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Originally Posted by Zehira

http://kotaku.com/5720506/its-not-ea...ld-of-warcraft

I know it's not for me and I have no discussion about it because it's what most of you guys want it but I'll be watching this thread...

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I don't think this relates much to my original point but I don't think a game should lack features because a minority of the potential customers have a disability. I'm all for adding user friendliness and all for everyone, but in no way cut possible great tech because of a minority, else all visual artists should be doing all their work so color blind people could have the same game experience as everyone else, then everyone else probably wouldn't want to play the game.

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

Interesting info, sounds like neat tech...

but if you look through previous discussions on the topic/Yoshi's quotes you'll realize that even though it's technically possible, they don't want to officially incorporate in-game voice chat for various reasons. they prefer groups/free companies reach an agreement with third party programs if they want to use it

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Well, maybe he didn't knew about this tech, I just posted it because I thought it could be really awesome to have in the game, so the devs see this thread and have one more option to consider for the future.

Reply to OP - I have always been a big fan of the game itself implementing it's own voice chat system, where there could be party chat and/or linkshell chat, obviously being able to turn it on or off. I've heard Yoshi has said no on this due to the multi-language nature of this game. Players that are against it cite that a) it would cause voice chat to be the "norm" and ppl would be bullied into using it, or being ignored. Others say "we have vent/mumble and we don't need it and we'll continue to use vent/mumble anyway." I am not sure what I think anymore, but I would like to have the option. It just sounds like something obvious that should be made part of a modern MMO.

Reply to Zehira - I read the article you linked. My thought is only that I would never have a linkshell like that or join a linkshell like that. There is no way that any linkshell I have ever been a part of (6+ yrs of XI and the last few months of XIV) would ever treat a member like that. We would never treat anyone like that, and accommodations would be made. I don't know if that is the nature of WoW or if that is just one a-hole guild leader.

Here is what he's said about voice chat

It doesn't really matter about the tech, as they could already do it if they wanted...they don't want to officially support it though, partly because of discrimination...also if they added an in-game voice chat people could argue that you "have" to use it for raids and stuff...they want to avoid that kind of logic.

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

Here is what he's said about voice chat

It doesn't really matter about the tech, as they could already do it if they wanted...they don't want to officially support it though, partly because of discrimination...also if they added an in-game voice chat people could argue that you "have" to use it for raids and stuff...they want to avoid that kind of logic.

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I agree with all this and I totally understand it. As a female player, I don't see the difference there, though. Honestly I think we're treated better, and men in general behave better when we're around. :) However, in the end it's the people you choose to surround yourself with. I guess I've just had such a good experience in my FF years that I can't see the amount of negative circumstances that could arise. And maybe the third party programs are better just so you can adjust the volume and/or mute whomever you want.

Well for all the nay people, the idea is not a simple voice chat, but a "area chat", meaning you could listen to other people's conversations and such, like if you were on the street. Provided most people would be civilized and with some sort of configuration options, you could limit the range of it (range in meters and range in if you want it open to all world, just friend list+linkshells+free company+party, just free company + party, etc). This is much more than a simple voice chat, and it wouldn't strain too much SE servers because it's peer-to-peer.

Also for the point about someone making it "mandatory", those people are the same that currently make mumble, teamspeak, ventrilo and other kind of voice chat communication mandatory, so that would not change, and I'd rather have service that adds depth to the overall game, than having to use a third party program.

I know Yoshi's stance on the matter, but that won't change my mind that this would be an incredible experience, even more given the multi-cultiral nature of this game. I'd love to go walking around ul'dah, listening to conversations in japanese, english, french, etc, like if I'm really in some kind of international trading port or something alike (well, the text chat is like that already).

Hell it could even add game elements tied to it, like having to earn some kind of special device (like a bluetooth cellphone, but workign with magic!) to be able to use the voice chat with someone who is not nearby and such, maybe some bosses could interfere with the mechanic, hell I don't know, but it would add a lot of depth to the game.

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Originally Posted by JillyBean

Reply to Zehira - I read the article you linked. My thought is only that I would never have a linkshell like that or join a linkshell like that. There is no way that any linkshell I have ever been a part of (6+ yrs of XI and the last few months of XIV) would ever treat a member like that. We would never treat anyone like that, and accommodations would be made. I don't know if that is the nature of WoW or if that is just one a-hole guild leader.

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I have to agree here, the situation presented in the article here is not the rule it is the exception. Or at least I think it would be in the Final Fantasy community.

In my 12 years of playing various MMOs, I have been a part of many guilds, none of which would have handled the situation like that. However I have also never played WoW, so I can't speak to the nature of their community. Although I can't say that I've heard many good things. :S

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

Interesting info, sounds like neat tech...

but if you look through previous discussions on the topic/Yoshi's quotes you'll realize that even though it's technically possible, they don't want to officially incorporate in-game voice chat for various reasons. they prefer groups/free companies reach an agreement with third party programs if they want to use it

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Ya they said they would have to talk to Sony and waste money to make it work. Also harassment would happen a lot and i remember one of the old dev team saying it would be NA doing a lot to the JP. Or a lot of male doing it to females and i think that one of the reason they said they don't want too beside the cost with sony.

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Originally Posted by JillyBean

Reply to Zehira - I read the article you linked. My thought is only that I would never have a linkshell like that or join a linkshell like that. There is no way that any linkshell I have ever been a part of (6+ yrs of XI and the last few months of XIV) would ever treat a member like that. We would never treat anyone like that, and accommodations would be made. I don't know if that is the nature of WoW or if that is just one a-hole guild leader.

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Thank you for understanding but remember the Final Fantasy community isn't always nice, yes there are many assholes in FFXI whether it's in-game voice or not, they are just mean. If you want to know more about my experience issues with voice chat, I will tell you what. I do miss Phantasy Star Online back on the Dreamcast where they had to use their keyboard, it was totally a blast until SEGA shut it down. Again, I bought PSO for my Xbox and paid Xbox Live and well sadly I was often asked to leave the game room for not using a mic because they didn't like my text bubbles. This is the reason why I do not like Xbox Live because whatever I tried to please myself to play games like Halo games and they often violated me for not talking. Never mind about that.

Thanks to voice chat, my life is very similar to Haruhi Suzumiya (in Middle/High Schools and College) in class with other hearing students. Whoever they are and they never try and talk to me because they still don't know how to help me (indeed, I was lonely.)

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...Hairstyles.gif

Okay, it's over... Now back to the topic. If it's what most of you guys want it then it's fine by me and I will tell you what...

If you come closely to me and voice to me.

I will say, hey there sorry I am deaf. ^^

You will walk away silently.

... -_-

Oh plus, I know my English isn't good but I wanted to thank FFXI for improving my English skill. ^^

Played with many MMO that has VC built in, but always ended up installing a 3rd party TS sw, and that is always because the in game VC is just too basic, and never have enough features to support a small group of people.

Some of the common things one would encounter with an active group of players -
1. Members just chatting for the sake of chatting.
2. Members looking for parties for whatever they need to complete
3. Groups already in a certain raid/instance/battle, that they need total blackout from the outside.

Just the 3 demands above, requires a somewhat advanced TS to handle, hence most groups opts out of the in game VC feature.

In addition, using a 3rd party TS, gives the added bonus of allowing you to communicate in case of a game crash.

jc

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Originally Posted by AttacKat

Played with many MMO that has VC built in, but always ended up installing a 3rd party TS sw, and that is always because the in game VC is just too basic, and never have enough features to support a small group of people.

Some of the common things one would encounter with an active group of players -
1. Members just chatting for the sake of chatting.
2. Members looking for parties for whatever they need to complete
3. Groups already in a certain raid/instance/battle, that they need total blackout from the outside.

Just the 3 demands above, requires a somewhat advanced TS to handle, hence most groups opts out of the in game VC feature.

In addition, using a 3rd party TS, gives the added bonus of allowing you to communicate in case of a game crash.

jc

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Indeed, a third-party program is always better so the FFXIV dev team don't have to waste their time and money to build it and make it better.

there's also that whole aspect of japanese culture that frowns upon what ever rammification comes from integrated voice chat.

I still think they are gonna need to add it its gonna be a huge gap between pc/console players as time goes on if they don't have some type of ingame chat.

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Originally Posted by Firon

I still think they are gonna need to add it its gonna be a huge gap between pc/console players as time goes on if they don't have some type of ingame chat.

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Everyone in this age have a smart phone which there apps you can download vent,ts and even mumble. I know people who use it and it work just as good without issue. Or you can use a laptop i don't see a issue PS3 is really for laying back crafting doing quest it's not going to be the best for Endgame you still can do it but you be very limit later down the road.

That why i think the ps3 is more for casual players who just want to kick back and enjoy the game. FFXI had ps2 and pc and they was not a big gap between pc/ ps2/xbox users at all i play on pc and ps3 without every using a mic. If you find endgame that really make you then smart phone lol or just don't join them there always going to be endgame that don't use it and does as good as the one that does ffxiv had them so i don't see the issue at all.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Everyone in this age have a smart phone which there apps you can download vent,ts and even mumble. I know people who use it and it work just as good without issue. Or you can use a laptop i don't see a issue PS3 is really for laying back crafting doing quest it's not going to be the best for Endgame you still can do it but you be very limit later down the road.

That why i think the ps3 is more for casual players who just want to kick back and enjoy the game. FFXI had ps2 and pc and they was not a big gap between pc/ ps2/xbox users at all i play on pc and ps3 without every using a mic. If you find endgame that really make you then smart phone lol or just don't join them there always going to be endgame that don't use it and does as good as the one that does ffxiv had them so i don't see the issue at all.

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If you think ps3 user are gonna do that you are mistaken why would they wanna use their phone or laptop when 99% of the games that have online has Voice chat built in.

I like the idea of an built in Voice Chat but it would need its own in-game UI similar to Vent with channels and such. Problem is i can see this getting really out of hand without proper management, LS based chat, City chat, global trade channel, I'm just not sure how this would all be mitigated and workable in game.

I think third party VoIP's are the way to go for now because then it is micromanaged by the players involved and not such a massive scale.

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Originally Posted by Firon

If you think ps3 user are gonna do that you are mistaken why would they wanna use their phone or laptop when 99% of the games that have online has Voice chat built in.

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The issue is even if they do build one it going to suck lol people still going to use TS,Vent,Mumble. So if you think PC users going to use the build in one you are very mistaken. Using a smart phone or a laptop seem pretty simple my friend who going to play on PS3 he set up on his smart phone already so we can talk on Mumble.

It just the fact that building a voice chat would cost money and they would have to talk to Sony to find a way how then people just end up never using it like in wow and other games that have it.

If they make a system just like vent,mumble,TS where a linkshell/free company can make a live Channel and have room and such and people can enter without being part of it then i see it working out just fine. But that would cost a lot of money seeing how it pretty much be running there own mumble,ts,vent on the game.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

The issue is even if they do build one it going to suck lol people still going to use TS,Vent,Mumble. So if you think PC users going to use the build in one you are very mistaken. Using a smart phone or a laptop seem pretty simple my friend who going to play on PS3 he set up on his smart phone already so we can talk on Mumble.

It just the fact that building a voice chat would cost money and they would have to talk to Sony to find a way how then people just end up never using it like in wow and other games that have it.

If they make a system just like vent,mumble,TS where a linkshell/free company can make a live Channel and have room and such and people can enter without being part of it then i see it working out just fine. But that would cost a lot of money seeing how it pretty much be running there own mumble,ts,vent on the game.

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Yes because your friend = the whole world. Ps3 players will use in game chat simple as that no one is forcing you, more options is always better.

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Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

I like the idea of an built in Voice Chat but it would need its own in-game UI similar to Vent with channels and such. Problem is i can see this getting really out of hand without proper management, LS based chat, City chat, global trade channel, I'm just not sure how this would all be mitigated and workable in game.

I think third party VoIP's are the way to go for now because then it is micromanaged by the players involved and not such a massive scale.

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Yep.

Love the idea. Would make life easier (built in voice chat) - but it must come featured enough to standalone. Else it was just a waste and everyone will be using other apps with proper features anyways.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

The issue is even if they do build one it going to suck lol people still going to use TS,Vent,Mumble. So if you think PC users going to use the build in one you are very mistaken. Using a smart phone or a laptop seem pretty simple my friend who going to play on PS3 he set up on his smart phone already so we can talk on Mumble.

It just the fact that building a voice chat would cost money and they would have to talk to Sony to find a way how then people just end up never using it like in wow and other games that have it.

If they make a system just like vent,mumble,TS where a linkshell/free company can make a live Channel and have room and such and people can enter without being part of it then i see it working out just fine. But that would cost a lot of money seeing how it pretty much be running there own mumble,ts,vent on the game.

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Pretty much what happened when Blizzard put their own voice chat in WoW. Nobody used it because everyone liked their own voice chat programs Vent, Mumble, Teamspeak. Mainly due to the fact that the high voice quality wasn't there. So now its a dead feature that nobody uses because the players prefer their own programs.

If SE offered their own official ingame voice chat PC players will still opt to use Vent or something similar no doubt.

mmm... Can you imagine all the cross chat you'll get if your comms were open to all in an AOI?

I mean when people walk on top of eachtoher in vent or mumble it's annyoing because info is lost. Now multiple thsi by a factor of like 100 when in a city or other crowded area.

Something is lost between the real world crowded conversations and digital chat. It's too hard to decern 1 conversation from another over voice chat.

THat and you'll get all the annyoing people who drop Fbombs every other word, or the person throwing around racial slurs in your AOI.

I don't think SE wants to police voice comms. I like the idea of voice chat, but only if it's an optional think and used for specific groups of people.