[Suggestion] The "Guard" skill.

I think the Guard skill should be removed as the normal sorce of making your shield do it's job. Instead, your shield should automatically block. determined by its Blocking value and if you are wearing the optimal rank shield. In addition, Deflection, Aegis Boon, and Outmaneuver should be switched to set times instead of dependent on the shield wield rate and if you have self-preservation equipped or not, Altered by if your shield is the proper rank. Given that, Self-preservation can be changed to increase shield blocking rate instead of the duration your shield arm is kept up.

I actually like how the guard skill works. If that was the case, people would be spamming Phalanx more than they already do.

On another note with auto-attack being implemented, we don't know how shields are going to play sooooo we have to wait and see.

I wouldnt mind Guards current application if it didnt take stamina and didnt stop your movement whenever your raise it or it lowers...

Either way, as it is, I spam Phalanx all the time anyways lol. Theres not much of time i leave my guard down.

I agree that guard should also be automated because when you're getting pounded as a tank you don't have time to worry about wheather or not your shield is up while trying to use Cures and Aegis Boon to try to stay alive so your party doesn't wipe.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I wouldnt mind Guards current application if it didnt take stamina and didnt stop your movement whenever your raise it or it lowers...

Either way, as it is, I spam Phalanx all the time anyways lol. Theres not much of time i leave my guard down.

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True I did spam it, we will just have to wait and see with auto-attack being implemented.
Personally I like to use guard every so often, and if you have it up, your attack should be reduced while it is. Seems right I guess? Just stating my opinions and mindless suggestions is all lol.

A lot (if not all) of the current battle mechanics still revolve around the battle system that they had in Alpha.

With the combat revamp, I do hope they take into account situational skills, and triggered responses.

I would like to see "Guard" become a more passive type ability and put more focus on actual shield skills than worrying about keeping your shield arm up. Maybe rework it so that if you "auto block" like Reika suggested, that "Guard" increases your change to block at the cost of movement speed, or even "Root" you into place while it is active.

While all we can do is speculate or express wishes of the new system, we should continue to do so to give the devs as many ideas as possible. Not only for immediate system changes, but things that can be implemented over time. Or even mechanics for new classes.

But I agree with Reika, Shield blocking should be automated so we can focus on the excitement of battle, instead of the micromanaging of defensive abilities.

/agreed

Block needs to be passive, the animation(s) really screws the current situation up.

Agree, hopefully when they go to auto attack the shield will auto block based on chance/block rating.

The main reason for automating guard is....

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I agree that guard should also be automated because when you're getting pounded as a tank you don't have time to worry about wheather or not your shield is up while trying to use Cures and Aegis Boon to try to stay alive so your party doesn't wipe.

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I agree with block being automated as well, I hate the fact that you just stop mid battle and just hold your shield up.

I think auto-guard could be implemented like steadfast and activate while you stand still. Self preservation could still boost duration of shield skills and they could even make a trait like Enduring march for it.

I strongly disagree. The use of guard plays a lot in the tactical stamina management that's part of tanking, and should be kept as it is.
I feel it's an actual sizable improvement over tanking in other games.
We're already getting autoattack, how many automation do you want in this game? Autoprovoke comes next?

Manual guard increases the need of tanking awareness, makes the tank think more about the skills he uses, and turns tanking more into an active job than just being a meat shield that stands there blocking blows just for the fact that he's holding a shield in a hand.
It's one of the best combat mechanics of the game and should definitely not be removed just because some are lazy or can't administer their stamina correctly.

Ultimately:
Manual guard -> Based on skill
Auto guard -> Based on luck

Skill -> Good
Luck -> Bad

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Originally Posted by Reika

I think the Guard skill should be removed as the normal sorce of making your shield do it's job. Instead, your shield should automatically block. determined by its Blocking value and if you are wearing the optimal rank shield. In addition, Deflection, Aegis Boon, and Outmaneuver should be switched to set times instead of dependent on the shield wield rate and if you have self-preservation equipped or not, Altered by if your shield is the proper rank. Given that, Self-preservation can be changed to increase shield blocking rate instead of the duration your shield arm is kept up.

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I disagree with having shields being automated and passive, I believe it actually adds to the gladiator's gameplay, and strengths. The stamina investment system for blocking is well done, and to get the most pay off from it, through both the free phalanx weapon skill and actually blocking attacks, you have to keep hate on yourself, which is stamina intensive once they fix the silly no-stamina self-buff hate gain. I don't believe it needs to have any disadvantages to using the shield either, like the proposed "attack down" in this thread. You are already putting stamina into this, guard isn't very much but the special boons are, you are missing out on Heavy Stabs or provokes, or anything else that's more effective. It's called a trade off, and is part of playing the role of a tank. You do the defensive stuff, stamina wise, so others can cast freely or do damage as fast as they can. If the gladiator isn't tanking, the shield isn't being utilized and the stamina is going into attack buffs, weapon skills, and other attacks.

However, I do agree that the special boon abilities are a bit too strong to be based on wield rate, as 19 wield rate shields can get 100% up-time on deflection and aegis boon, in rotation. Of course these shields can miss blocks, but with the blocking stat able to be raised through high quality shields, and the cures in the game being so powerful while monster attacks are so weak, it feels a bit off.

A flat wield rate of 10, modified by self-preservation, would be nice I think. This is the lowest standard wield rate, and in line with what gladiators should be wearing. Scutums can get a rotation of 15 seconds aegis boon, 15 seconds of deflection, and 15 seconds of sentinel mitigation (the ability, not the shield class), and all of these are 1:00 cooldowns. You can rotate these infinitely with only 15 seconds of actual "guard" time, but it's a lot of stamina, if phalanx weren't free you wouldn't be able to do much. The 15 seconds of guard time is covered by the massive healing ability of cure and sacrifice, which is where I think the problem is, not the shielding mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Freedan

I agree that guard should also be automated because when you're getting pounded as a tank you don't have time to worry about wheather or not your shield is up while trying to use Cures and Aegis Boon to try to stay alive so your party doesn't wipe.

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What exactly in this game is pounding on you? Why would you rather something be based on chance instead of paying attention and playing properly? You know the best way to stop being "pounded on"? Raising your shield. This game plays very slowly, so I have no idea how you are scrambling for time to think.

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Originally Posted by ChiefCurrahee

But I agree with Reika, Shield blocking should be automated so we can focus on the excitement of battle, instead of the micromanaging of defensive abilities.

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Maybe you shouldn't be playing a tank then. Don't neuter the only actually well done class mechanic because you don't want to think to perform your role.

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Originally Posted by Crowley

/agreed
Block needs to be passive, the animation(s) really screws the current situation up.

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I'll just say that I disagree again, but I completely agree about the animations in every way. Trying to move, and the shield falls, you stumble. Aegis boon doesn't show enemy attacks, and the number displays are very delayed. When you've just blocked an attack, move back into idle stance, then pop suddenly back into the guarded stance. All of it is very annoying and I do hope they get those fixed sometime.

It should be automatically blocked. It's a pain to manually trigger it.

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Originally Posted by Reika

I think the Guard skill should be removed as the normal sorce of making your shield do it's job. Instead, your shield should automatically block. determined by its Blocking value and if you are wearing the optimal rank shield. In addition, Deflection, Aegis Boon, and Outmaneuver should be switched to set times instead of dependent on the shield wield rate and if you have self-preservation equipped or not, Altered by if your shield is the proper rank. Given that, Self-preservation can be changed to increase shield blocking rate instead of the duration your shield arm is kept up.

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I hope that is the "auto-attack" function for the shield when auto-attack is implemented

Agree with TC. Guarding is something you should do automatically with a shield, because otherwise what exactly are you holding the shield for? Hell even with it just hanging on your arm, fighting random animals you would naturally block some hits just incidentally. It's flow breaking to have to completely stop to raise your arm about 6 inches (or worse, when guard goes down and you stop mid-sprint to lower your arm about six inches). With auto-attack coming, it's just natural for auto-guard to be in there as well.

I'm a tank in all games I play. In general, I've noticed the games with the best tanking mechanics focus more on holding hate rather than trying to keep yourself alive. The tank should be tough as a matter of course, the skill is supposed to come in keeping the enemy off of other party members. Keeping you alive? That's the healer's job, not yours. Not to say there should be no active damage mitigation abilities, that's just silly, but having to manually raise your shield arm is getting close to having to press a button to blink.

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Originally Posted by shal_zee

It should be automatically blocked. It's a pain to manually trigger it.

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What else is a pain? Provoking? Self healing? Walking to the mob? Playing the game at all?

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Originally Posted by OJtheLIONKing

I'm a tank in all games I play. In general, I've noticed the games with the best tanking mechanics focus more on holding hate rather than trying to keep yourself alive. The tank should be tough as a matter of course, the skill is supposed to come in keeping the enemy off of other party members. Keeping you alive? That's the healer's job, not yours. Not to say there should be no active damage mitigation abilities, that's just silly, but having to manually raise your shield arm is getting close to having to press a button to blink.

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Seriously now? That's quite funny. Have you ever actually tried a sword/shield fight? because NO enemy will just randomly slam his weapon against your shield for the simple fact that it's there. They will intentionally try to attack uncovered parts of your body, and you will need to make a conscious effort to move your shield to intercept their strikes.
Also, holding a shield in a guard position continuously IS a fatiguing effort and perfectly fits the stamina mechanism, not to mention logic.

Aggro control alone in ALL games is extremely simple. There are only a certain number of skills they can implement to control aggro, and for sure they cannot give you 20 provokes.
There's no game out there in which there are more tanking skills that focus on holding hate than to keeping yourself alive, and while a big part of the tanking job is holding aggro, keeping oneself alive and making the healer's job easy is another big part. Removing that tanking becomes just a matter of 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2, which is extremely dull.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

What else is a pain? Provoking? Self healing? Walking to the mob? Playing the game at all?

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Thank you! I mean what's the point in tanking if you can't pick up your own shield when you want to? I never hated putting up my shield. Like ABRIEAL said, we are already getting auto-attack, I'd like to play the rest of the game as is

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I strongly disagree. The use of guard plays a lot in the tactical stamina management that's part of tanking, and should be kept as it is.
I feel it's an actual sizable improvement over tanking in other games.
We're already getting autoattack, how many automation do you want in this game? Autoprovoke comes next?

Manual guard increases the need of tanking awareness, makes the tank think more about the skills he uses, and turns tanking more into an active job than just being a meat shield that stands there blocking blows just for the fact that he's holding a shield in a hand.
It's one of the best combat mechanics of the game and should definitely not be removed just because some are lazy or can't administer their stamina correctly.

Ultimately:
Manual guard -> Based on skill
Auto guard -> Based on luck

Skill -> Good
Luck -> Bad

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Actually I DONT want auto attack. I guess you never read all my posts in the auto attack related threads.

Manual guard isnt based entiredly on skill either. The shields blocking value will determine the rate you block with it. A shiled like bladed lanturn shield you have only 70 blocking, while a scutum you have 99 blocking. you could very well not block an attack while your guard is up. You raise your shield with a Vintage Kite Shield or a Scutum, you will pretty much block every single attack anyways. It is actually a waste of stamina to have to raise your shield when it should be in front of you already, have to stop to do that, and have to stop when the shield arm fails. I stand by my suggestion.

You could very well argue "Why is parry and evade automated, why aren't they like guard?" They are based on your evade and weapon parry + the various skills you can use to increase them. Why is guard different?
Why don't they they make a basic skill for Parry and Evade that takes stamina to use, stops you while you ready it, and only has a certain duration, and you 100% will not parry unless you use them? The other defensive skills are already automated.

Another thing I like to add to my suggestion, is make enemy special skills melee skills blockable and parryable, and physical damage ranged attacks. Right now they can only be evaded or miss (barely).

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Originally Posted by Reika

Manual guard isnt based entiredly on skill either.

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Manual guard is majorly based on skill. Automatic involves no skill whatsoever.

To guard manually effectively you have to administer your stamina and master your timing, and that requires skill. Blocking strikes just because the shield is there requires nothing else than luck.

Removing a skill-based mechanic from the game to replace it with pure luck = bad.

Did you read the rest of it, or did you stop there....

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Originally Posted by Reika

Did you read the rest of it, or did you stop there....

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Still though.. nonetheless people will go for the same type of shield with all the same effects. I'd rather see people use skill to block incoming damage from a mob or something. You could have the chance to NOT block a mobs big attack...
OR you can have your shield up and reduce some or most of the damage without chance

This would be pretty nice. I agree I dont particularly like the guard skill. Specially that it stops your movement in your tracks.

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Originally Posted by Hitoriki

This would be pretty nice. I agree I dont particularly like the guard skill. Specially that it stops your movement in your tracks.

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realistically, isn't it kind of hard to run and keep yourself positioned for a frontal blow with your shield up?

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Still though.. nonetheless people will go for the same type of shield with all the same effects. I'd rather see people use skill to block incoming damage from a mob or something. You could have the chance to NOT block a mobs big attack...
OR you can have your shield up and reduce some or most of the damage without chance

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Problem with that is you cant block Specials or ranged attacks. just basic physical melee attacks.