Can we be heroes?

~~I've been thinking about this for several months. I hope you, the reader, will find it interesting and discusion-worthy.

~~Maybe it's just inherent to MMO's in general, but at least for me, the feeling of being a true hero in the game is missing. Certainly there are cut-scenes where you are thanked for your effort and told you've become strong. Also there is gear that can be hard to aquire and looks and functions above the norm. However, after a while, many people have the exact items and they all stand around in Ul'dah looking like an army of copy-pasted characters.

~~In single player rpgs, you are aware at all times that you are the hero. The one who fights the battles, learns the strategies, finds or doesn't finds the best gear, and ultimately defeats whatever evil has decended to vex the world. I certainly don't expect a parade everytime I complete some content, but I wonder if that single-player feeling is something that can be achieved in a MMO at all.

~~Maybe it isn't really the point of an MMO in the first place. These games are meant to be played by social units that hopefully lead to friendships and a sense of comaradery.
When I bought FF11, I had the mistaken idea I'd be standing on some tall hill, with my cape flapping in the wind and all (capes, hah!), and rush down to the aid of any overwhelmed players I saw. Of course the game simply wasn't made like that and I had to face the reality of what the game really was. It bummed me out for a while, and I ended up playing jobs that were unpopular just to stand out a little, but it still wasn't heroic, just stubborn.

~~Watching Lou selflessly sacrifice himself in the "end of an era" video, I saw a hero. I just wonder if any of us can ever aspire to such greatness when we all end up looking the same in the end.

~~The only thing I can think of at the moment that might be equivilant, would be a "Hall of Heroes". It would be a large building with plaques, trophies etc. listing special content and the first people to beat that content. People would be able to walk it's halls and see the names of the first alliance to beat the cyrstal tower for instance. While it's unlikely I myself would ever grace those halls, it might add that extra bit that feels like it's missing.

At any rate, thanks so very much for reading through all of the above, and I hope that some of you will understand what I mean and add your thoughts to the discussion.

No, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ

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Originally Posted by Skullmaker

~~I've been thinking about this for several months.

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Really? Kind of unsettling...

just for one day

It would be nice, but it's ultimately impossible I think.

I actually prefer it when they reference you as a group of heroes, rather than one guy/gal who did something significant. So many other people have done it by that point.

In XIV I actually liked how you weren't solo in CS's you were with your group. I also liked that they said a few adventurers have the gift of the echo or joined the Grand companies.

The reason you can't be a hero in an MMO doesn't have much to do with anything you listed.
You can't become a hero because people outside friends and LS won't congratulate you for killing big bosses and saving the world. Instead they'll just hate you for getting that sweet loot that they don't have and come up with every excuse in the book to make you look like a dungeon dwelling useless waste of nerd life (how wonderful!).

Sucks.

Hall of Heroes.

Yes please.

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Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

Hall of Heroes.

Yes please.

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Just pointing out that we're kind of all zeroes right now. I mean the big nasty dragon did spank us pretty hard. I felt big after beating Ifrit extreme but now hellfire doesn't really seem that scary.

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Originally Posted by Wyyote

Just pointing out that we're kind of all zeroes right now. I mean the big nasty dragon did spank us pretty hard. I felt big after beating Ifrit extreme but now hellfire doesn't really seem that scary.

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I don't think we really fought Bahamut. We were pretty far away from where he emerged after all.

Did you not feel like a hero when you killed Nael?

I felt like a rock star, a hero, even a king. I also didn't feel like it was my efforts alone. I felt like my team were the heroes we should be.

get your ls to beat yoshi dev team in pvp or 1 vs 1 yoshi. in real time event.

Im sure you'll get well known for that.

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Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

Hall of Heroes.

Yes please.

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i dunno they had something like that in warhammer ...big statues with weekly, monthly and lifetime champs or whatever they were. there was a hall of heroes and it was empty and i know i never went in there or read any names for the life or me or gave two pickles. even the ones in areas people run around past i rarely payed it any attention either. but it still had a better chance of being noticed by others if that is the point of this a hall tucked away somewhere you need to enter doesn't do it. all in all i think either is a waste of resources though.

but to feel like a real hero in a mmo like someone said is probably impossible outside of rare things like someone saving the day and being able to finish off a mob solo that a full party wipes on. not sure but i do know i'm all about party play so if it means having to play a solo online mmo i rather not be a hero and just be part of just a group. if your not a reason the group keeps wiping your a hero in my book lol.

No. You will never be heroes, because no matter how awesome you may think you are, generic FMV hero archtype that looks like half the hyur male playerbase will always take the credit.

http://i.imgur.com/TYYS3.jpg

They just need to make you feel like your group (as in the adventurers) have done something grand. The problem is that most MMO's storylines end up making you the destined hero or the one in written about in prophecy.

Don't do that, it's meaningless when there's thousands of people with that story. Make it so you were part of a group that did something grand. The Adventurers of Eorzea will always be remembered. (etc)

I don't think it is possible in a fair way.

Be the first to defeat some content, and your name will be shown, it would be nice, but would it be fair?
People live in different timezones, have jobs etc.

Must someone take a day off just so he is making a change to be a "hero"? Must someone stand up in the middle in the night, just for a change to be a "hero"?

Also new players who started later probably have no change at all to get any change to have such title.

It just doesn't work in a fair way, it will just be who plays on the right time.

Maybe a tournament that you fight alone or with a group against NPC's, and every battle will give you points, how fast you completed every battle, did someone die in the group etc.
Who everyone can do at their own time, and at the end of the week/month, or something the group/person with the highest score will win and get their name shown somewhere, and every 3? months such event will happen, and the list will grow bigger, some may try to get their name more often on the list.

Something like that I could see happen, this way everyone has a fair chance.

one thing i thought of they did have in warhammer ability to be a larger version of yourself that had way more hp and defense in the city raids part. if they can add this to pve rather then pvp i think it might work? like last boss in a pve zone 1 person in the party of 8 becomes super badass but how they not make that random i dunno. pre quests or something lol.

also they did say we will get huge summons to control but that is group hero'ism i would assume when that happens. but i would be very happy when my ls has gained summoning and pulled them out in a battle.

being flag carriers can do the trick but i don't like them in most games they have to do with the linkshell and it's not for the normal player that doesn't sit on vent all day with the leaders. so something server wise that is gotten threw awards might work.

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Originally Posted by NinjaPanda

Did you not feel like a hero when you killed Nael?

I felt like a rock star, a hero, even a king. I also didn't feel like it was my efforts alone. I felt like my team were the heroes we should be.

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This exactly. As a player we were celebrated and held up as saviors after defeating Nael Van Darnus.

I really don't think feeling like a hero is a problem in this game, considering that. If you do something that really counts, you will be recognized for it.

Basically GW2 accomplishes this without making a huge deal. When you perform dynamic events that save a village for instance, anytime you go back through there the NPC's wave directly to you, give you praise and cheers as you run past. They recognize you and sometimes, only after you've managed to build that rapport with them, are you able to access certain things you couldn't have done so otherwise. That sort of thing is the best way to make you feel important in an MMO. Every player can experience it, without truly isolating anyone either.

Now, as for like a personalized thing, they could put a special plaque of some sort within your residence that when you click on it, it'll bring up a menu showing you different titles you've unlocked through various achievements, such as dungeon conquest, slaying certain big creatures, etc. For some it would give them something to strive for to see something physical that announces their own deeds.

The reason I like the way GW2 does this is because it gives the world more 'life' to it, when you run past a group of NPCs that you've helped previously, they acknowledge your presence, rather than just staring out into space because thats what their code is designed for. You do feel like your actions matter and actually influence how the game is, because truthfully, they do. You can either choose to assist a town under seige and rescue them or watch them burn to the ground.

On that same note, I'd actually like it if there was a way to switch sides. I dont forsee it ever happening because the FF games want us to be the good guys, but if in this world there was an option where we could enlist into the Garlean forces as a spy for them and do things to sabatoge war efforts against the various nations to benefit the Empire, so that what you do visit a village they either boo and hiss at you, or sometimes, even attack you to try and ward you off. Sometimes, its fun not always being the good guy.

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Originally Posted by auritribe

No. You will never be heroes, because no matter how awesome you may think you are, generic FMV hero archtype that looks like half the hyur male playerbase will always take the credit.

http://i.imgur.com/TYYS3.jpg

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Don't you mean, me? :cool:

They're going to have PVP ranks and standings. What about that?

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Originally Posted by Rex

They're going to have PVP ranks and standings. What about that?

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Great for those who actually care about PvP for sure, for others who want to stick to PvE something else would be nice. I'm not personally looking for any sort of reaffirmination that I've done anything spectacular in the game, only to do the spectactular thing would be nice in itself. As many, many, many books and movies will tell you. The real heroes are never the one's who get talked about. Many times the real heroes are the one's that no one ever even knows existed.

I don't agree with the OP and here's why. Not that I or anyone cares:

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Originally Posted by Skullmaker

~~I've been thinking about this for several months. I hope you, the reader, will find it interesting and discusion-worthy.

~~Maybe it's just inherent to MMO's in general, but at least for me, the feeling of being a true hero in the game is missing. Certainly there are cut-scenes where you are thanked for your effort and told you've become strong. Also there is gear that can be hard to aquire and looks and functions above the norm. However, after a while, many people have the exact items and they all stand around in Ul'dah looking like an army of copy-pasted characters.

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I still get a bit jealous when I see someone with full Heavy Darklight (even though they look like a trash can) and White Ravens. Not a whole lot. It is a great way to stand out though. It's not really easy to get a consistent group to tackle that content on a regular basis.

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~~In single player rpgs, you are aware at all times that you are the hero. The one who fights the battles, learns the strategies, finds or doesn't finds the best gear, and ultimately defeats whatever evil has decended to vex the world. I certainly don't expect a parade everytime I complete some content, but I wonder if that single-player feeling is something that can be achieved in a MMO at all.

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I vehemently disagree. Actually to the point that I'm not nearly treated as the powerful hero I am enough. In Skyrim I could be General Tullius' second in command. I could be the leader of the Companions. I could have killed Alduin. I could've slain dragons right in front of the city guards of White Run, but they'll still reprimand me for shouting in town or make some snide remark about the hair growing out of my ears even though I'm the Thane. You're always treated like crap no matter what your accomplishment.

In FFVII no one new that you were the rag-tag group that was going to raise hell in the Northern crater and defeat Sephiroth. Kids would call you old man and old men would call you young kid.

I can't actually think of a single player RPG where you are actually treated as a hero. Just my personal experience though.

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~~Maybe it isn't really the point of an MMO in the first place. These games are meant to be played by social units that hopefully lead to friendships and a sense of comaradery.
When I bought FF11, I had the mistaken idea I'd be standing on some tall hill, with my cape flapping in the wind and all (capes, hah!), and rush down to the aid of any overwhelmed players I saw. Of course the game simply wasn't made like that and I had to face the reality of what the game really was. It bummed me out for a while, and I ended up playing jobs that were unpopular just to stand out a little, but it still wasn't heroic, just stubborn.

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I personally remember being in awe of a level 40 Dragoon that was helping me get a skull in Gusgen Mines for my subjob quest. I also remember being incredibly thankful and in awe of high level Red Mages like Avesta soloing gods. I also remember being incredibly appreciative of WHMs in Valkurm Dunes not being Douchebags and helping people with raises. This form of comradery was heroic.

I've personally received a lot of respect from new players in XIV at Camp Skull Valley, just by walking around in my Dragoon AF. I remember doing an Evasive Jump with that neat backflip animation. The player was amazed. Then I switched to WAR. He was astonished and thought I was the cream of the crop. I wasn't, nor am I even close but that guy seemed to think so at the time and it got him to stick with the game.

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~~Watching Lou selflessly sacrifice himself in the "end of an era" video, I saw a hero. I just wonder if any of us can ever aspire to such greatness when we all end up looking the same in the end.

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He died. If you plan on deleting your character and are in good standing with the RP community and can write a touching moment about yourself maybe you can get this kind of treatment. Don't expect to be coming back though as that just cheapens the feeling as it would if SE decides to bring Louisoix back.

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~~The only thing I can think of at the moment that might be equivilant, would be a "Hall of Heroes". It would be a large building with plaques, trophies etc. listing special content and the first people to beat that content. People would be able to walk it's halls and see the names of the first alliance to beat the cyrstal tower for instance. While it's unlikely I myself would ever grace those halls, it might add that extra bit that feels like it's missing.

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We kind of have a similar thing on the Lodestone but I don't think anyone pays attention to it. If there was a place in game to show the GC heroes I could see that being similar. This idea isn't bad either.

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At any rate, thanks so very much for reading through all of the above, and I hope that some of you will understand what I mean and add your thoughts to the discussion.

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While I disagreed with you I didn't think your idea about a Hall of Heroes was all that bad. Everything else though is contradictory to my experiences in nearly 10 years of playing MMOs and nearly 13 playing RPGs.

They are just games though and nothing compared to feeling like a real hero or role model.

You say that you wanted a way in which the game treats you as the hero of Eorzea?

They did.

Here's what you get if you personally finish the quest "To Kill a Raven", which is Darnus easymode:

VICTORY!

I think the 1.0 GC cutscenes did a good job of putting you in the role of 'hero.' I really liked how when you did them it showed you marching off to battle with your group of friends. If they put more of those in 2.0 I'll be happy.

Besides, the cities need a hero but not the one they deserve or something like that.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

Besides, the cities need a hero but not the one they deserve or something like that.

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From this I totally got a flash of the final cutscene involving Hildebrand and Dalamud lol.

Hildebrand: "You mean I am the hero of legend?!"

I think the way to feel more "like a hero" is to make our characters do more in the cutscenes. Yes, the main event should be the fight itself and it won't be to the level of pre-rendered cg movies, but the most our characters do is take out/put away our weapon! =( For example, in "Futures Perfect" why can't our characters join in that epic fight??? Within the main story, your character is the main character after all! Plus, in ARR all main story cutscenes will be voiced. So unless SE records dialogue for every voice type on every race, our characters won't speak while everyone else does (they'll just go "huh?" and "ugh" like right now). To me, that just makes it more important that we actually do stuff in the CS, rather than just stand there like an outside observer.

It would have to be handled differently outside the main story of course, since it's an mmo and no one is the "main character." We already have some stuff like titles, achievements and GC heroes on the lodestone but I think having them in game will help a lot. I believe in ARR titles will appear next to your name? Also perhaps having rankings/GC heroes show in the game by checking the adventurer's guilds/free company houses or an in game newspaper with weekly rankings along with lore articles etc.

~~I must at this point admit I probably shouldn't have posted this, but I'm glad to have gotten so many thoughtful replies. I did forget the giant smile that beating Van Darnus and the CS afterward brought to my face. Maybe it was just the pent-up emotional after-effects of "the end of an era" getting the better of me...or maybe I wanted to talk about something a little deeper than breast-jiggle physics and grass.
~~Perhaps most arguably, there are many ways to be a hero, and I guess I forgot that. Thanks again to everyone who responded.

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Originally Posted by KaMuiSouZou

I think the way to feel more "like a hero" is to make our characters do more in the cutscenes. Yes, the main event should be the fight itself and it won't be to the level of pre-rendered cg movies, but the most our characters do is take out/put away our weapon! =( For example, in "Futures Perfect" why can't our characters join in that epic fight??? Within the main story, your character is the main character after all! Plus, in ARR all main story cutscenes will be voiced. So unless SE records dialogue for every voice type on every race, our characters won't speak while everyone else does (they'll just go "huh?" and "ugh" like right now). To me, that just makes it more important that we actually do stuff in the CS, rather than just stand there like an outside observer.

It would have to be handled differently outside the main story of course, since it's an mmo and no one is the "main character." We already have some stuff like titles, achievements and GC heroes on the lodestone but I think having them in game will help a lot. I believe in ARR titles will appear next to your name? Also perhaps having rankings/GC heroes show in the game by checking the adventurer's guilds/free company houses or an in game newspaper with weekly rankings along with lore articles etc.

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I love the idea of actually having your character fight. It couldn't be that difficult to shoot a scene with 7 pre-recorded possible animations, even less so. BLM and WHM would be almost identical in this regard, so that already brings it down to six.

I'd love to see my character actually fight rather than stand to the side like a dolt. This would do a lot more to help solidify my character as someone worth a damn in the world in which he is portrayed.

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Originally Posted by IloveYouPumpkin

Hall of Heroes.

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http://medievil.wikkii.com/w/images/...4/Gargoyle.png
Welcome to the Hall of Heroes, where the bravest warriors from history spend eternity feasting, singing and arm wrestling! If they think you are worthy enough you may be able to read this in my voice.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

http://medievil.wikkii.com/w/images/...4/Gargoyle.png
Welcome to the Hall of Heroes, where the bravest warriors from history spend eternity feasting, singing and arm wrestling! If they think you are worthy enough you may be able to read this in my voice.

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Hero your health is running low. do you have any potions, or food?

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Originally Posted by Skullmaker

Can we be heroes?

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Yes.





But just for one day.

FFXIV does it a fair load better than other MMO's out there. FFXI was much better though.

I remember playing WOW and I'm an ungodly hero who saved the world X number of times and get ignored by people who know who I am. Great work there bliz :P

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Originally Posted by DubstepNinja

just for one day

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heheh... Well played!

Heroes in the " military veteran" sense? Yes.

Heroes in the something , truly unique, name in history? Only if limited content is introduced. Have a prize for those that content a certain amount f time after release get entered into a list of names to be selected as being entered into the lore as heroes.

Then again, some people choose weird names that don't match with the setting
..

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

You say that you wanted a way in which the game treats you as the hero of Eorzea?

They did.

Here's what you get if you personally finish the quest "To Kill a Raven", which is Darnus easymode:

VICTORY!

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This was the closest SE has ever come to making a player feel like their character was indeed the main protagonist.

I'm all for it and hope they keep heading in this direction.

I suffered 10 years of the likes of Prish, Lion and Tenzen stealing my thunder!

Bowie thinks so.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb...aw5do1_500.gif

I felt after the final cutscene after the van Darnus fight (and the events that built up to it) that my character was someone of significance.

Then I felt like a puny worm when Bahamut broke loose. :x

But nonetheless, I had my moment to shine!

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I felt after the final cutscene after the van Darnus fight (and the events that built up to it) that my character was someone of significance.

Then I felt like a puny worm when Bahamut broke loose. :x

But nonetheless, I had my moment to shine!

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I think even The Twelve felt puny when Bahamut broke loose. So we are in good company.

It is possible to build MMOs that honor the player. People in a town could remember your accomplishment in helping them or being a cad and either praise you or berate you accordingly. NPCs can mention that they heard you killed the dragon that attacked some village. Women could pester male players who have high reps for marriage. And vice versa. (A player could set their preference for potential mates). Some NPCs could follow a "hero" around adoringly. Heros could accumulate supporters and honors. You might even get a statue for some remarkable deed. It isn't impossible. I think Elder Scrolls Online is implementing something like this... they mentioned that some players could eventually become king.

http://www.defunctgames.com/pic/revi...rinnypsp-2.jpg

OP is a Prinny, Dood!