Before any of you think this is a troll thread, or that I am complaining about something.. That is way far from the main idea. The point of this thread is to see how far making this a Fan Service MMORPG can go, versus how original it should be.
While each numbered Final Fantasy title carries over a few aspects from the earlier games, you can still consider it to be almost completely original. Now, how far should originality go with FFXIV? With the current version 1.0, originality has been tried and failed, but should that be a reason to steer clear from originality, or from most of it?
I am glad that this being a fan service MMO, it will feel like a Final Fantasy game, however, I am in hopes that it has a very strong balance between being too much like Final Fantasy ??? and not enough originality. What are your thoughts?
Fan Service vs Originality
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10-21-2012, 03:17 AMNuruFan Service vs Originality
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10-21-2012, 03:40 AMHoly_Dragoon
keep the original story idea that was in here from day 1. I've been wanting to know more for SO long now. It feels like an incomplete FF story. Not that I have disliked the Dalamud story, far from it!! I just really want to see where this Echo Gifted | Beastmen | Empire triangle goes.
The primals were so important early on, I feel that story has taken a back seat during Dalamud. -
10-21-2012, 04:01 AMNuru
As far as primals go, they are tied to Dalamud from the Meteor story. So Part fo the Meteor story is connected to the game's original storyline. The echo seems to be an ability we have never learned about, as far as how our characters have obtained that ability or why we have it. I'd like to know more about that myself.
In 2.0, they are keeping these NPCs, especially Minfilia, who is tied directly to the organization that connects you with a Path Companion. She also knows about your ability of the echo, so perhaps in 2.0 we should be getting some kind of continuation with that storyline. -
10-21-2012, 05:14 AMNoctisUmbra
It's not about fan service. Its about meeting a standard and playing it safe with the fundamentals before adding more creative ideas. The game hasn't launched yet. First it needs to have a successful launch that isn't missing basic, fundamental features. Then they can get creative.
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10-21-2012, 06:26 AMindira
they already said there focus is fan service. making old FF stuff fit in FFXIV
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10-21-2012, 06:46 AMHiruke
I don't think I'm really concerned about originality vs. borrowing from previous games, so much as I am just doing things that are "good". Your mileage is obviously going to vary, but I'm personally not excited about stuff like chocobos wearing WHM outfits, or people riding ahrimans. I don't think either of those things look good, but clearly they are moving forward on them because they think a decent enough chunk of players would want those things (and probably disagree with me that they look hideous).
I'd rather they focus on really awesome stuff than pandering to folks that want to ride everything from buffalo to Van Darnus. Magitek armor mounts would obviously be cool. I'd even be excited to ride around in giant robot mandragora. But something about riding around on ahriman seems silly and eerily out of place. What's next, riding on goblin rockets or motorcycles? I fear vanity slots for similar reasons, but I can't get too worked up because so far in FF MMOs you always look hideously stupid when wearing optimal gear.
Bottom line, I don't care what they do as long as they do it awesome. Nearly anything could be great if done properly. If they just resort to a bunch of cheap pandering that doesn't come off well, I'd be much less interested. -
10-21-2012, 08:05 AMZezlar
Final Fantasy XI was heavily based on fan service as well. They just need to find a happy medium where they don't go too far into the extreme.
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10-21-2012, 08:35 AMJaimie
See this list:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/s...pe/sOrder/desc
scroll down
keep scrolling
keep scrolling
there it is FFXIV -
10-21-2012, 09:22 AMBabydoll
I think it will be fine. I seriously can't see SE putting this stuff in the game EXACTLY how it used to be. I'm sure Yoshida and the team will give each thing a new twist. I can't picture crystal tower being 100% exactly the same as it was in FF3.
Also mind you..this is a Final Fantasy title. It only makes sense to put stuff in it from past FF's. In all the other FF's that was done as well. Returning familiar mobs, used the same avatars, magic spells...but it was not a clone or unoriginal LOL Which is why FF was so great.
Are you tryin to say because each FF had malboros, iron giants and floating eyes in the final dungeons that they were unoriginal??? Because each FF had the same spells...I guess those were all unoriginal too. At this rate they might as well remove cure, fire, lightning, etc...I mean...those are fan service stuff right? :P Jobs too. Better get rid of those lol.
I understand that not each FF had the same area in it...so that is a new thing. But meh..FF are known for reusing things and just making them newer and better. Wait and see...then judge =P Seems like every thread I am seeing now on here is people gettin ahead of themselves >.< Wait until we beta test to critique! It will actually be useful then (Hopefully!) -
10-21-2012, 12:51 PMRampage
I really like where the game is headed right now, its like a FFVII FFIV mix when you think about it. the materia / magitek lines are easy to blur in a good way. Both those games had recurring themes of using primal / esper / mako / whaterver life force leeching power. And the story can make sense since its the same recurring theme.
Magitek armor would be awesome fodder for having special sections in instances where you have to ride them and do different things. Although im hoping they will be additional classes / jobs to it, like a puppeteer where youswitch out parts and stuff, except you are in it!
You can think of it as fanservice, but really its just a way of dressing up game mechanics in a way that makes people think FF. anyway as long as its fun, who cares? -
10-21-2012, 02:22 PMShurrikhan
Would the question then be whether there is an an actual original concept available to FFXIV that could include these fan service pieces as to not seem out of place? I do honestly think that can be done, though it seems more trouble than it'd be worth.
What annoys me about this trend is that each of these pieces were meant to fit within the whole of another game, one whose world usually largely followed the sub-themes and overlying concepts of that particular game. These more or less organic connections of the components to the larger story is what, in my opinion at least, made Final Fantasy the positive description it's playing on here. To rip pieces out of old games and call that market-selection "Final Fantasy" is as close to the opposite as I can imagine.
That said, it will likely sell based on familiarity, much like a FF community site would sell if it merely offered addictive qualities of teamwork and progression in a world that allows you to play out (a few among) your topics of nostalgia.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Tangential ----- Please don't tire yourself reading this unless you enjoy developmental strategy comparisons.
As it stands, Eorzea is a part of the world that plays at the mercy of gods as if children, never growing altogether tall or wise enough in their civilizations in time to avoid their destined falls, and all the while sustaining its magic based on the imbalance between its periods. The only ones who forsee these dangers, if only due to extended hindsight, are people not tied into petty liegences, and often also not tied to their own experiences alone -- through Echo. We still don't know the purpose for this. A world within a larger world, like a pendulum in some sort of larger machine, and people now within people -- walkers of the path of Twelve. What of the danger, as the Eorzeas see it, or the impurity in the view of the Garleans, of the Primals?
As it stands, we have plenty of plot paths to pick up from. The lack of such progression has left 1.x feeling almost like a slice-of-life story, not that that's especially a bad thing. But in Yoshi's push for more a more at-hands and pursuant game feel, I'd have thought the greater plot paths are the first thing he'd start with.
Yes, a lack of game industry standards hurts the game by simple comparison. That said, rather than carbon-copying first and editing later as sight expands, in the long run I think it serves a game better to know it's actual wanted extents and necessary breadth. But, the project is short on time; general rules cannot possibly absorb that condition completely.
Comparisons of Implementation:
Alright, this going to be a bit random, but... let's take when materia was added. It was put in place in order to grant additional use to crafter classes and act as a post-gear 'customizable stats' feature equable to jewelcrafting (WoW) or similar socket systems. In that sense we can call it a function-based copy. That said, this isn't meant especially to critique--wait a moment and you'll see.
Alternatively, assuming still no original ideas, we could have made a feature-based copy of FFVII materia, impairing much more visible use for the system than mere stats alone. However, try picturing this sort of materia, and the processes surrounding its acquisition. I'm sure that, given that we are taking a feature here, and the translation into actual function is still ambiguous, it could go many ways. Many of those could have been more interesting with a greater addition to the game's overall feeling than the system we received.
But now let's take a concept-based copy. Just for example, let's take Final Fantasy VIII, where power could be had through the use of Guardian Forces (essentially Aeons/Eidolans/Primals, though there are distinct differences between these archetypal renditions). With one's life experiences, memories, fading into the consciousness of the GF instead, you are, in balance, able to attach magic to things usually mundane, empowering yourself and your actions. Trade the face of the hero, the story of the hero, for the power of a hero.
That is probably a slightly over-smitten interpretation of the FFVIII archetype concept, but my point here is what thinking based on concept can do. It's general, it's unfixed, broad, and invigorating to the game when well-implemented.
None of these three examples would really be "true" to FFXIV. Something that would be would use the idea of the primals, of a sort of rag-tag set of nations, Echo, the primals, and maybe even some of the slice-of-life feel from before as background to a new impact where Dalamud and the Twelve both send this little world's inhabitants running.
TL;DR:
The game shouldn't feel like a solid core with no wheels. Or, perhaps a better metaphor -- development shouldn't work towards making a solid framework for a high-preforming car before considering whether their vehicle ought to fly.
A game that can make crafters and gatherers feel just as much a part of the adventurer world as combatants, a character feel uniquely legend based on archetypal parts (job abilities, etc), a world where the community, story, and the world itself intersect in something far greater than the sum -- none of these targets will likely be reached from individual pursuit.
Crafter and gatherer identity likely won't come just from making some infinitely more advanced node or synthesis system, or even going further than either system. It will likely have more to do with the world, and a general progression more akin to a life-pursuit of your character.
Whatever it is, it'll come from something bigger. And that something, core to the game, will take care of its own as long as there is continued competence and ingenuity, with foresight into tertiary implementation to avoid throwing off players.
Please don't try to compare this with Tanaka's vision. If this was his methodology, it would appear that he never got close to the first step, unless of course that quaint, almost slice-of-life communal feel of early 1.x, once rounded out, was his goal. -
10-21-2012, 07:01 PMbobbygunz
Originality will always be better than fanservice. Im assuming SE will be reasonable and only include fan service elements where it remains in context with the game world, but at the same time, it kind of seems like they're just using it as a crutch so they can get away with making a crappy game again.
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10-21-2012, 11:31 PMRoxyLalondeI think it will be fine mainly because the elements for those additions are already in the game... gambling and card games and games in general already exist in eorzea as you can see from Uldah's story line. Plus the platinum mirage is pretty much a rich man's golden saucer. Magitek is visible with the garleans. I think it's becoming less of a crutch then when they first thought it up and becoming more of an immersible experience. They are adding in the details that make a world unique.Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbygunz
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10-21-2012, 11:50 PMxXHalloweenTrixXx
Fan Service elements would definitely attract other players (which is their aim).
But I dislike that this mmo will be known as a "fan service mmorpg" it makes it seem like the game will be a bit cheesy (Not saying that it will). Like for instance... Fan service anime... I hate those as it lack any proper story than simply to please the eyes for the moment, then it becomes stale and irritating after a while.
But I know SE would somehow make these elements their own and attach the proper lore as to why it came to be into the world. -
10-22-2012, 12:08 AMYrusama
I think in terms of fan service, Yoshi-P is mostly showing us the big guns in terms of concept art and screenshots. These are things like Dragoon, Titan, Crystals, Chocobos, etc. He's also shown us a revamped version of the Yellow Dragon from IV, as well as Demon Wall from various games (starting from IV). I'm sure once the game is actually in motion we'll start to see more of the original ideas.
I do remember hearing he's interested in concluding 1.0's original story. -
10-22-2012, 12:13 AMBabydoll
Yeah Molly brings up a good point. People have been asking for fan service for a long time now! Now that SE finally listens, people complain about it? >.>
I look forward to seeing the fan service stuff in the game...if done correctly it could turn out epic :) I still am hoping for Gilgamesh to make a real appearance with the battle on the big bridge..with his theme song haha -
10-22-2012, 12:21 AMMolly_MillionsIn addition, I think the best type of game to do that with is an MMO, if for no other reason that we can share the joy in real-time with other FF fans. Honestly, what could be better for a fan of the series?Quote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
Crystal Tower, (hopefully) Tetra Master-like card game, Golden Saucer, Magitek Armor, Materia, Epic Sommons, Chocobo Raising, these are all things that make the FF series great. I'll be overjoyed to see them all in a single game. -
10-22-2012, 12:29 AMStarlordI agree with all your points Molly, but this one made me giggle a little :D, I love the way it spelled! I Sommon thee! =). Anyways, I agree Molly that If any place a Fan service title should be in an MMO where everyone can share the joy of us being fans together! :D.Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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10-22-2012, 12:33 AMBowenOn it! (o_o)7Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaimie
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10-22-2012, 12:57 AMMolly_MillionsPerfect example where a few things were brought over, but not all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruisu
One thing I didn't mention was steller graphics. That's something the FF series has been known for, and was arguably lacking from IX. Materia was also lacking from IX. Yeah it was a bit of a fan service title, but I don't think it went far enough. Personally, it was my least favorite of the series. The one thing it really had going for it was Tetra Master.
lol, no spell check on this pc. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Starlord
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10-22-2012, 01:00 AMIBloodmoonI don't know when it happened, but I find myself liking Molly's post even before I read them now. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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10-22-2012, 01:10 AMMolly_Millionslol so you're the one that likes my posts before i can even refresh the page! :PQuote:
Originally Posted by IBloodmoon
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10-22-2012, 01:57 AMMolly_MillionsWhat does any of this have to do with FFXIV being a fan service title? So what if internet voting can or cannot be manipulated? So what if the destructoid award was rigged because of a flawed voting system? What does that have to do with this thread?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
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10-22-2012, 02:13 AMIngolfIt took more from VI and lower than the recent FF's. It was fanservice, but for the earlier titles (and a great game at that) It did take some very loose references from VII and VIII (Ending credits, and weapon shop dialogue) but there was a metric fuckton taken from the older titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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10-22-2012, 02:18 AMMolly_MillionsThat's a fair arguement, but you also have to consider that there is quite a bit of the current fanbase that never played those earlier games, or that came on board after the launch of VII. For those people, IX was not a fan service game. So I'd say that those fans could use a fan service title of thier own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingolf
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10-22-2012, 02:19 AMIngolfI agree. XIV being a fanservice title excites me greatly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Molly_Millions
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10-22-2012, 02:25 AMJynx
Meh, as long as they keep their own twist on the fanservice content I don't really care about seeing FF references everywhere I look.
It's really been a mainstay of the series to have tons of references to older games in the series, usually just in names and certain areas but in a MMO you get alot more play with how you introduce older game references.
Make the gambling arena the Golden Saucer? Sounds good to me.
Adding a Red XIII mount? Not so good to me...
It will all fall down to how it's implemented, and if it's in good taste or not. -
10-22-2012, 03:00 AMVeltaine
ive actually been spending time with the older games just to get a sampling of all the potential goodies this game may have to offer later in its life :)
although the one i started playing (FF2) makes me wanna stab my face over and over again with a crystal
(teehee)
keep it coming XIV lets make nostalgia with the newest MMO.. :D -
10-22-2012, 03:08 AMZantetsuken
re:OP
If the fan-service elements are seamlessly integrated into the lore of FFXIV, there won't be a problem with it.
Final Fantasy IX was definitely a fan-service title, and yet people don't really remember it that way.
That really was a terrible title. I was severely disappointed by FFXIII, but I'd even play that several times again over FFII.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veltaine
It's surprising really, because FFI and FFIII were fantastic. -
10-22-2012, 10:18 PMWarlock
I have only played 3 FF titles FFX,FFXI and FFXIV so i'm not been fan serviced everything they add in game that wasn't in FF11 will be new to me and exciting xD
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10-22-2012, 11:22 PMTonkra
Leviathan, shiva and ifrit, carbuncle are going to be in it.
WTF fanservice! -
10-22-2012, 11:25 PMStarlordYa Fanservice has been in all the FF game then, Chocobos.Moogles,Airships,Summons! Fanservice!! I call Fanservice!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonkra
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10-23-2012, 12:55 AMJaimie
Late Breaking News
Spoilers ahead.
Gaus Van Darnus is actually Sephiroth in disguise.
Cloud and company are in 2.0 (in HD 3D glory of course) to stop meteor.
2.0 is saved, and will sell millions of copies in the first week. -
10-23-2012, 01:04 AMShougun3D just for Cloud's hair right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaimie
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10-23-2012, 01:30 AMRoxyLalondeDon't forget Atomos will suddenly turn into a ressurected AerithQuote:
Originally Posted by Jaimie
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10-23-2012, 01:33 AMJaimie
Getting a Gold Chocobo is gonna be my first priority. Then I'm off to explore the crashed airship wrapped by a dragon in Mor Dhona.
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10-23-2012, 02:31 AMOrophin
I don't mind concepts from other games being brought into FF14, but they need to actually be introduced into the game's lore somehow. Crystal Tower is purportedly being shot down out of Dalamud, so that's fine. Golden Saucer and everything else needs to have a reason for being in the world of Hydaelyn and simply not some clone from a former FF title being thrown into FF14 just because.
Also, I don't want to see main characters from the other games appearing. Staples such as Cid (who is already in the game) and Gilgamesh (whether it be story NPC or monster) are fine though. I don't want to see Cloud or Sephiroth or any of the other characters though. INDIRECT REFERENCES to a former character I feel is ok though. (like the text from a guy asking what you name was "Sephiross? XxSephirothxX?" etc) Making a reference in a quest to "Some spikey haired warrior came through here recently..." is ok. I just don't want to see their names or models. This game needs to stand apart from the other FFs somehow.