Like to see changes for PLD

Hey guys, have not been playing PLD for a super long time but its not hard to see they lack really bad in the tank department.

First off we need and aoe taunt that isn't a 1min/500tp CD, 30sec is ok but 1min is just too much considering how fast parties are.

Second I think we should have a trait that makes it so every ability we doe does 200-300% more enmity then anybody else. Heal, attack, buff, ect.

Third I would maybe like to see flash do a small dot that has pretty good enmity backing it so its not such a joke, 1 arrow and its like I didn't do anything to the mob. Also something else that could work is make it so flash makes it so the mob can only attack you for like 6-10 seconds (like how most taunts in other games work).

Anything else someone wants to add to this list?

I just find PLD probably the hardest class of any game I have ever played to tank with, I don't mind having to work to tank and I don't want 1 attack and afk because I wont lose threat. Just make it so I don't feel so bloody helpless to peel a mob off someone.

Also if any of these changes are in 2.0 let me know =P

I think we're fine single target and the go-to for end-game bosses both for our survivability and enmity generation and don't really need any changes centered around this. I think the biggest problem for the class is the lack of AE damage. We simply need an answer to Steel Cyclone to fill the role of tank in all situations just as Warrior enjoys right now.

Campaign for the return of Circle Blade and Paladin is golden. :P

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Campaign for the return of Circle Blade and Paladin is golden. :P

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It was Circle Slash, but yeah, I agree.

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First off we need and aoe taunt that isn't a 1min/500tp CD

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Flash. 30s, Blinds targets.

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we should have a trait that makes it so every ability we doe does 200-300% more enmity

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I have very little trouble holding hate against decently geared DRGs, BLMs, MNKs in burn mode as it is. Is there room for improvement? Always. But a 10-15% passive bonus would be more than enough. All you need to do is figure out a good hate rotation and pack in some enmity gear when needed. ENM+50~100 is usually more than enough to hold hate against most mobs and players. For harder endgame bosses, during speed runs, or against extremely well geared DPS, you will probably need 100+ so that you aren't holding your party back from victory.

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1 arrow and its like I didn't do anything to the mob.

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I hope this is exaggeration, but if it isn't... Flash > Provoke > Aegis Boon > Phalanx > (Sentinel >) Spirits Within. Then follow up with the rest of your hate rotation. I usually try to get in a Flat Blade before my Flash/Voke timers are up again. I guarantee you won't lose hate in the beginning unless your party is really trying.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with OP. Paladin excels in tanking. You're just starting out and just learning your job. Paladin is a job that requires a fair bit of practice, but it could also be that your tanking preference just lies with warrior. Some people just can't tank on paladin to save their lives but have no problem on warrior, and vice versa.

I also disagree, insofar as the game developers desire to maintain a "shit's situational" attitude. PLD has its place, as does WAR. Neither excels at tanking in all situations, so each has its place in end game. Right now, WAR more-or-less dominates in terms of quantity of fights, but what PLD brings to the table in terms of quality tanking in the few encounters it is appropriate for, allows it to shine well beyond WAR.

The issue that is often skirted for PLD is its complexity compared to WAR. While it's not that hard once you get it down, the learning curve is steeper than WAR tanking. This creates large distinction between a bad paladin and a good paladin, and even a good paladin and a great paladin, although the difference is more nuanced in the latter comparison. We used to talk about that on these forums but that argument seems to have been swept under the rug. With watered-down content and easier encounters being demanded by the masses, people seem to be moving towards a "change the class for me" attitude. Unfortunately the "learn2play" quip doesn't quite hold the same weight in the FF community, and sometimes it would be nice if it did.

Edit: I just saw that you're a GLA in the 40s. Yes, it is very hard to tank in experience points parties before lv. 48 when Flash becomes AOE. Most experience points parties are just burning and you can't honestly compete at those levels. You will have a much easier time tanking when you reach 50. I agree that Circle Slash would be a great addition to GLA for those levels you don't have aoe flash.

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Originally Posted by Sounsyy

Some people just can't tank on paladin to save their lives but have no problem on warrior, and vice versa.

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I very much agree with this, as it fits my experiences. When pld first came out I jumped in head first and got it down pretty quickly, making myself a rock solid tank in any situation. Sure it would be nice to have an AoE weapon skill again so we're not sitting around waiting for cd's and actually feel like we're contributing, but its not needed.

Truth be told I've been tanking on both war and pld since they came out and while I excel at pld tanking, you give me an axe and I'm about as useless as a dead tank simply because I cannot grasp how to survive on a war where as pld survival came to me like second nature.

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Originally Posted by Tman

you give me an axe and I'm about as useless as a dead tank simply because I cannot grasp how to survive on a war where as pld survival came to me like second nature.

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Use bloodbath right before steel cyclone when adds are around, you'll get a ton of HP back, also 2nd wind is your friend keep it on your top bar.

Use Bloodbath with spirits within for extra winsauce.

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Use Bloodbath with spirits within for extra winsauce.

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Only problem with that is you want to try and be at full when using Spirits Within to maximize your damage and Enmity returns. Though it's still nice to use with Goring / Riot Blade.

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

Use Bloodbath with spirits within for extra winsauce.

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Agreed.

My favourite combo's are Aegis Boon ---> Phalanx ---> Bloodbath ---- Spirits (good for 1500 HP in most cases)

or

Aegis Boon into Holy Succor (Spell Interupt -100% good for around 2k HP)

Outmaneuver and Divine Veil should just be turned into 1 Skill. Cause Outmaneuver is only useful with Divine Veil

You can Block an attack when you are using Cover on someone. So if you have a slow start on your rotation, Cover the person with hate. Then Spirits Within.

What both Warrior and Paladin need is an ability to get Enmity back after a death.

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PLD: Sacred Blessing. - trade Enmity with target player.

WAR: Brute Force - trade Enmity with target player.

Not perfect by any means, cause it would be an OP starter. (Thunder Combo - trade hate with BLM)

But it would be a great utility for AOE tanking. Just not late in the battle, cause you would give the BLM the boss, and take all his mobs.

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But wiping cause the tank died gets a bit old.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

What both Warrior and Paladin need is an ability to get Enmity back after a death.

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One might call it watering things down, but I kinda wish Provoke/Flash worked like WoW (back when I played anyway) and put you 10% above in threat the person currently with threat. Or at least streamline it to function like PUG's taunt and put the monster on you so that you can try to build enough threat in that time to keep it on you.

Enmity just needs to be reworked. That fact that is doesn't decay is just a horribly overlooked mechanic itself. It's also why we get the cheesy encounters were the bosses periodically reset enmity. The game encounters would be a whole lot more interesting if they had better control of enmity and could script decay rates or temporary drops or spikes in enmity.

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Originally Posted by Ladon

Enmity just needs to be reworked. That fact that is doesn't decay is just a horribly overlooked mechanic itself. It's also why we get the cheesy encounters were the bosses periodically reset enmity. The game encounters would be a whole lot more interesting if they had better control of enmity and could script decay rates or temporary drops or spikes in enmity.

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Problem with that system is PLD and WAR would have to fight that much harder to keep up with the decay. For example, if PLD and DD's were both losing 100 Enmity a tick the PLD is doing 88 damage AA and the DD's are doing 150 the PLD isn't really building Enmity he's just struggling to combat the Enmity Decay while the DD's are building it at a steady rate. PLD's supplement their Enmity building by JA's and Enmity mods on their Weaponskills to help stay ahead of the game, but by that time the DD's are still a leg up on Enmity over you when they throw their WS's that do double your damage. And God forbid they implement the reduced Enmity when taking damage mechanic, we all know how that hurt PLD in FFXI.

With that said, I think the current system is good enough. There's a cap on how much Enmity the lowest person has vs. the highest and I think that leaves plenty of room to build hate back up (least I've managed too on a few occasions).

I love being a pld when i'm in party. I can support the main tank, use my shield and cover the whm/ blm. I have the skills it should be easy with out dieing. I know Warrior have that DEF bonus trait and I think that's cool. Paladins can do just as much tanking as a War( I know because I tanked Garuda before but it was the low-level one).

Paladins have that cool action called "Divine Vail" which I believe cause AoE regen when a healer cast heal on me when it's active. I was told to focus my attention on it's counter to support the tank at times(but wasn't very necessary).

We as a community need to show SE and the DEVs what we're able to do with what they give us. I don't like defaming the little ppl but I know how to use what I have and survive. I do think both Wars and Plds have their rightful place on the battle field.




another subject:
All we need now is Dark Knight to express the opposite stance of what Plds are(saboteur/debuff). Take care of business on the other side of the mob and support DDs. Paladin are the light and Dark Knights is the dark but highlight special abilities opposite of each other,haha!

:cool:

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Only problem with that is you want to try and be at full when using Spirits Within to maximize your damage and Enmity returns. Though it's still nice to use with Goring / Riot Blade.

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Sure, but when constantly taking damage that's not always possible. It's great in a pinch on stuff like Chimera and saves you MP :)

There are two fundaments being aproched in this thread

Offenisve tanking reduces damage mitigation soo being able to return HP off of high damage numbers, better serve a offensive tank, wich explains why Cohier probably dosent see very many opertunities in wich combineing sw with blood bath as effective. That or hey values the enmity bonus from the added damage over the hp returns.

Blood bath works great if your dealing alot of damage as a tank, but I dont think DPS is PLD's strong suite. There is a reason the devs gave vit as a damage modifier for WAR. This way war can increase dps without decreasing damage mitigation too much. That being said, WAR is definatly far more squishier then PLD , but thats ok as they return HP from heavy crits.

Just an opinion, but WAR's strong suite seems to be cleaning up the trash adds on boss fights, they also do great as frontline dds soo long as they are not stacking enmity gear .

BB doesn't do anymore DPS than normal, it just gives you back HP for using WS you are already going to use.

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Originally Posted by GreyJorildyn

BB doesn't do anymore DPS than normal, it just gives you back HP for using WS you are already going to use.

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I know, but in order for it to be worth a damn you must meet two reqs

1) you must need HP, wich in turn means your SW will do less damage anyways

2) you must do decent damage, wich is not PLD's strong point.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

I know, but in order for it to be worth a damn you must meet two reqs

1) you must need HP, wich in turn means your SW will do less damage anyways

2) you must do decent damage, wich is not PLD's strong point.

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BB on Spirits is fine. It's not like @ 70% HP your Spirits Within only does 1/2 damage. It's maybe like 15-20% difference.
Plus Spirits and BB have the same cooldown, so why not use it?
Here's a glimps of my 2nd Ability Row
[Phalanx][Spirits Within][Bloodbath][Wardrum]

PLD may not be top of the list for damage, but when built as a DD it's nothing to laugh about. 600+ Spirits Within on Garuda at only 50% health is decent, and I'm far from hitting cap on STR.

I'm planning to be able to hit for around 700 on Ifrit, when I get a better weapon and some Darklight.
Already in the high 5's with Giantsgal and 300 to MND and STR. A Critical is like OMFG

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With that said, I think the current system is good enough. There's a cap on how much Enmity the lowest person has vs. the highest and I think that leaves plenty of room to build hate back up (least I've managed too on a few occasions).

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I think that the ceiling is 27000ish. Going from 0-27000 before the boss 1 shots all the mages is pretty rough. Not every fight will be like that, but making up for 5 minutes of Nuking and Healing in a few seconds is impossible.

Just why give WHM's an instant Raise ability, when it's a wipe anyways.

It would be funny to see a fight with two PLD. They could cycle Sentinel, Cover and Divine Veil to negate like 70% of damage over a whole fight. Then if one died, the other will still have hate.

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Just why give WHM's an instant Raise ability, when it's a wipe anyways.

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Um, so you can raise a downed party member in 1 second and get back to healing so your tank doesn't die too?

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fight with two PLD.

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Would love to have fights requiring multiple tanks again like in XI.

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Originally Posted by Sounsyy

Um, so you can raise a downed party member in 1 second and get back to healing so your tank doesn't die too?

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Lol thanks. I was thinking more in the sense of when the Tank is already dead.

Circle Slash for AOE.
Make Outmaneuver a trait instead of an ability.
Fix Sentinel to affect ALL actions instead of just damage.

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the Tank is already dead.

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Oh... yeah... Lol if your tank is down best hope your blms can nuke boss down before wipe. Only non-OP way I can see to fix that would be having two tanks. Maybe such content will be available or necessary in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

BB on Spirits is fine. It's not like @ 70% HP your Spirits Within only does 1/2 damage. It's maybe like 15-20% difference.
Plus Spirits and BB have the same cooldown, so why not use it?
Here's a glimps of my 2nd Ability Row
[Phalanx][Spirits Within][Bloodbath][Wardrum]

PLD may not be top of the list for damage, but when built as a DD it's nothing to laugh about. 600+ Spirits Within on Garuda at only 50% health is decent, and I'm far from hitting cap on STR.

I'm planning to be able to hit for around 700 on Ifrit, when I get a better weapon and some Darklight.
Already in the high 5's with Giantsgal and 300 to MND and STR. A Critical is like OMFG



I think that the ceiling is 27000ish. Going from 0-27000 before the boss 1 shots all the mages is pretty rough. Not every fight will be like that, but making up for 5 minutes of Nuking and Healing in a few seconds is impossible.

Just why give WHM's an instant Raise ability, when it's a wipe anyways.

It would be funny to see a fight with two PLD. They could cycle Sentinel, Cover and Divine Veil to negate like 70% of damage over a whole fight. Then if one died, the other will still have hate.

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Please understand, I do not wish to discredit your ideals. Basicly what you are atempting to do is strengthen a quality that is naturaly weak to PLD. There is abosolutly nothing wrong with this. But just like each job and class , everything has a place in battle. A DPS strong pld dose offer an element to a fight, but not one of great value in a party vs boss set up. maybe in a pvp set up can this tatic be of value, but when elements of battle can be controlled simply be each maintaining their role in the fight, it is safe to asume that it best serves the group if one strengthens their indivdual role in that party set up. PLD is un deniably the strongest 1v1 player v boss tank in the game. Highest damage mitigation , strongest enmity hold and great party supporter. Its undeniable weakness, however, is DPS. Naturally weak to the realm of DD , pld makes up for lack of dd by geting great enmity returns off of much less DPS as compaired to its WAR counterpart. This is possable due to non dps enmity multipliers and abilities that retain strong , fast enmity, but dose not deal damage. To try and counter this aspect on PLD, where possable, will take alot of sacrafice in damage mitigation.

That being said, GLD would be the most simple and obvious answer to PVP if you wish to keep your sword and shield, not quite a PLD but requires less sacrifice for higher dps output.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

Please understand, I do not wish to discredit your ideals. Basicly what you are atempting to do is strengthen a quality that is naturaly weak to PLD. There is abosolutly nothing wrong with this. But just like each job and class , everything has a place in battle. A DPS strong pld dose offer an element to a fight, but not one of great value in a party vs boss set up. maybe in a pvp set up can this tatic be of value, but when elements of battle can be controlled simply be each maintaining their role in the fight, it is safe to asume that it best serves the group if one strengthens their indivdual role in that party set up. PLD is un deniably the strongest 1v1 player v boss tank in the game. Highest damage mitigation , strongest enmity hold and great party supporter. Its undeniable weakness, however, is DPS. Naturally weak to the realm of DD , pld makes up for lack of dd by geting great enmity returns off of much less DPS as compaired to its WAR counterpart. This is possable due to non dps enmity multipliers and abilities that retain strong , fast enmity, but dose not deal damage. To try and counter this aspect on PLD, where possable, will take alot of sacrafice in damage mitigation.

That being said, GLD would be the most simple and obvious answer to PVP if you wish to keep your sword and shield, not quite a PLD but requires less sacrifice for higher dps output.

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No worries. For the way I like to play Paladin, STR, ATK, VIT and Accuracy are the most important stats.

I focus on a couple key concepts of PLD:

1) Low Cooldowns on WS's
2) 100% Block Rate from Divine Veil
3) Combo Multi's are capped at a low MND value so not a priority

So keeping damage high, and stacking VIT for Block + High Block on shield is my priority.
So IMO, it's a perfectly reasonable way to make a PLD tank.

It's a little strange to me that someone would gear it differently except for Kiting

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Originally Posted by Orophin

One might call it watering things down, but I kinda wish Provoke/Flash worked like WoW (back when I played anyway) and put you 10% above in threat the person currently with threat. Or at least streamline it to function like PUG's taunt and put the monster on you so that you can try to build enough threat in that time to keep it on you.

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What made it work in WoW is that taunts were singular (as of WotLK every tank had one with the exception of warriors, who had three). You'd have to make Provoke G.Axe-exclusive, turn Flash back into a single-target ability and make it sword-exclusive, and then make the change. I personally wouldn't mind PLD getting two new attacks to replace what would be "lost" in changing Provoke and Flash.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Problem with that system is PLD and WAR would have to fight that much harder to keep up with the decay. For example, if PLD and DD's were both losing 100 Enmity a tick the PLD is doing 88 damage AA and the DD's are doing 150 the PLD isn't really building Enmity he's just struggling to combat the Enmity Decay while the DD's are building it at a steady rate.

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This assumes that enmity decay would be the same across the board, which isn't always the case. You could flag a tank to have reduced decay. Conversely, you can flag all non-tank classes to produce reduced enmity within certain parameters (either through traits or for maintaining a certain distance from the mob).

The problem with caps is that once you hit the cap there's nowhere to go.

The only thing I want in Pld is more HP, not from gear, but in a form of a trait. Everything else seems fine to me.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The problem with caps is that once you hit the cap there's nowhere to go.

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Well the current Enmity doesn't technically "Cap" perse, basically it's the maximum allowable divide between the target with the most Enmity and the one with the Lowest. Considering everyone who's not just standing around is constantly building Enmity, and most mobs do not have excessive HP even the best PLD's don't really reach said cap unless the fight becomes horrendously drawn out and someone dies.

Since I hit 50 and got all my AF I notice my skills don't suck as nearly as much as low 40s (obviously). And I can hold threat just fine as long as dps doesn't blow up the mob before I have threat.

That being said I would really like to have a steel cyclone for aoe threat help.