Reaper's avatar

So we know that there is a theory that there is a change that a reaper's avatar is the 13th counterpart of the user. I do wonder what would happen if the two use enshroud, would they be rejoined or will they be more stronger then other reapers if both avatar and it's user share the same soul?

I've been working on my Hrothgar backstory and decided to make him a dark knight/reaper hybrid, when this thought came to me.

Well, keep in mind the theory that a reaper's avatar being their counterpart from the void/Thirteenth is an in-universe theory, postulated by scholars as of the Encyclopædia Eorzea Vol. III, and as such is subject to retroactive kerfuffling. As it stands, if the theory is correct, all reapers use their shard from the void as their avatars, so probably no rejoining or being stronger than other reapers other than being able to enshroud at all makes you stronger than others who can't.

That is not to say that in your personal story this can't happen though—it could be the theory is incorrect that it's always the case that reapers form contracts with their counterparts but your character did form contract with your shard, so you do get some other benefit from enshrouding! Maybe not "rejoining", but maybe the character is so in synch with this counterpart of their soul that you can do things others can't? Sky's the limit!

It is implied in-game that Golbez (the Contramemoria Era one, not Durante assuming his identity) was Azem's incarnation on the Thirteenth before it became the Void; the Encyclopedia Eorzea book implies it's their Reaper Avatar.

Considering the First's denizens are no less capable than those of the Source, the idea that a higher aetheric soul density improves combat performance is without merit. The "Warriors of Darkness" thrash the Scions in 3.1, and the inhabitants and wildlife of the First are just as deadly and capable as anything on the Source.

I don't remember the exact Watsonian mechanics, but to my memory Enshroud does not work like a rejoining, even if you were contracted to your Voidsent counterpart.

As headcanon though, you can make it whatever you like.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

[I]f the theory is correct, all reapers use their shard from the void as their avatars, so probably no rejoining or being stronger than other reapers other than being able to enshroud at all makes you stronger than others who can't.

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The Warrior of Light contracting their Voidal counterpart doesn't necessarily mean everyone does so (or is even more likely to do so); coincidences can happen, and given as Zenos contracts with Zero (the Void's counterpart to Vauthry if anyone), that idea is pretty dead in the water.

So, there's no actual evidence disproving the Encyclopedia Eorzea's claim, and I'm not sure where Zero or Cilia got it... because there can't be evidence for it. Or against it; the EE3 called the theory itself 'unproven and unprovable'. There is no test for soul-shardliness, there are no telltale signs (unless you're Gerolt or Rowena), there's really no way to know. Realistically, that theory is there because the developers went 'we're probably never gonna answer this question, so if you desperately want any answer, here's one'.

But because it is unproven and unprovable, that means you do not have to care about it in RP. Nobody has any claim for or against, so if Lore Cops even existed, they have nothing on you. If that angle works for you, have fun; if it doesn't, come up with something else that does.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The Warrior of Light contracting their Voidal counterpart doesn't necessarily mean everyone does so (or is even more likely to do so); coincidences can happen, and given as Zenos contracts with Zero (the Void's counterpart to Vauthry if anyone), that idea is pretty dead in the water.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

So, there's no actual evidence disproving the Encyclopedia Eorzea's claim, and I'm not sure where Zero or Cilia got it... because there can't be evidence for it. Or against it; the EE3 called the theory itself 'unproven and unprovable'. There is no test for soul-shardliness, there are no telltale signs (unless you're Gerolt or Rowena), there's really no way to know. Realistically, that theory is there because the developers went 'we're probably never gonna answer this question, so if you desperately want any answer, here's one'.

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I'm just pointing out that if the theory were 100% real as postulated, all voidsent avatars are shards of their reaper:

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The voidsent entity with which the pact is formed, summoned through the medium of a crystal. For such a bond to be established, the voidsent's soul must be uniquely compatible—perhaps nigh indistinguishable—from the reaper's own, given that the reaper's power relies on their ability to play physical host to the voidsent. If we take the star's sundering as fact, we must consider the possibility that this compatibility is rendered not by chance, but due to both souls once having been part of the same whole - however, this theory remains both unverified and unverifieable at present.

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Therefore, if true, it would stand to reason that OP's character wouldn't particularly stronger for creating a pact with their own counterpart from the void—and if it weren't true, OP could work in that space of their character's shard being their avatar allowing them powers that others lack.

But i do wonder what IF the reaper and their avatar share the same soul. We have seen what happen with the arcadion fighters using souls. Even Scribe mention it and pointed out the similarities between those who use feral souls and the reaper's enshrouded. I can suspect that the reaper and avatar can stay in their enshrouded form a bit longer then normal reapers if their are of the same soul. Since synergy is need to mention it. Something that the arcadon fighters, hunters and solders of Alexandria didn't do since they force the souls to fuse with them.

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Originally Posted by Pimsan20

But i do wonder what IF the reaper and their avatar share the same soul.

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Strictly speaking, since we're already operating within a universe where this is possibly the case for any or everyone... Potentially, it makes no difference. This is just what RPR looks like either way.

That said, as everyone else has pointed out, there's plenty of leeway to have fun with this however you like, and I don't think the ideas you've posited here would sound unreasonable to anyone.

Yeah, while I don't think you can try to tease out objective truths from deliberate ambiguity at any point, I think if you're approaching this from a role-playing perspective, you should go entirely the other direction and embrace the ambiguity. If there is not an answer, don't demand that there be one; instead, play in the space, and pick the approach that works best for you and the story you want to tell.

The only thing I would suggest is to lean away from any approach that declares your character to somehow be materially greater than others. That's not a lore thing, it's more an etiquette thing; everyone in a scene is equal unless in some way negotiated otherwise, so it goes down pretty poorly if you're coming to the proverbial table and saying 'I am the strongest Reaper because Rejoinings'.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, while I don't think you can try to tease out objective truths from deliberate ambiguity at any point, I think if you're approaching this from a role-playing perspective, you should go entirely the other direction and embrace the ambiguity. If there is not an answer, don't demand that there be one; instead, play in the space, and pick the approach that works best for you and the story you want to tell.

The only thing I would suggest is to lean away from any approach that declares your character to somehow be materially greater than others. That's not a lore thing, it's more an etiquette thing; everyone in a scene is equal unless in some way negotiated otherwise, so it goes down pretty poorly if you're coming to the proverbial table and saying 'I am the strongest Reaper because Rejoinings'.

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Don't worry, i'm not planning to go the i'm the strongest reaper because of rejoining route. I'm trying to avoid that scenario as much as i can. And Which i why i made this forum to see how i can balance it without been a merry sue.

ok, so, i'm a smidgeon late to the conversation, but I do have some things to add to the conversation!

So, first thing's first. the topic of whether or not a Reaper avatar is the 13th shard counterpart of the Reaper themself.

As has been mentioned, this is purely a theory, and one which is very much not supported by any sort of evidence we actually have, unless you want to believe Zero is 13th shard Zenos. If anything, we have evidence that runs counter to this, instead, in the form of Golbez who's implied to be Azem's shard similar to the Warrior of Light, who you can fight AS a reaper, with your own avatar. While this might be a case of gameplay and story segregation, the lack of any sort of special dialogue to reference the matter makes me doubt it.

Now, on the other topic, that of the effects of a Reaper enshrouding on their aetheric capacity.

First off, regarding the aetheric density of an individual in the Source, it's highly likely that the aetheric density of an individual on the source is the same as that of those on shards due to the fact that aether seems to be able to flow two-ways between the shards and the source. for every rejoining, it's likely that, in order to maintain balance between them, the aether distributes to the shards from the source following a rejoining. This would explain why all the shards inhabitants are of comparable strength, because we DO have evidence that multiple souls in one body DOES result in a strength multiplier in combat!

This brings me to the second detail, which is that multiple souls thing! We actually do have evidence, several pieces of it in fact, that souls grant increased power to their bearer. Ardbert's soul for the WoL for example gave the WoL strength enough to punch a hole through Emet Selch, Voidsent enshrouding is based on this principle, Regulators oversoul functions are similarly based on this principle, and Mamool Ja biology also supports this with the two-headed mamool ja ja like the dawnservant being yet another case of two souls, one body, resulting in a significantly stronger specimen.

As for rejoining shards making someone significantly stronger, you may want to look at the case of G'raha Tia, who's fused as of the end of shadowbringers' post-story with an alternate timeline counterpart of himself, where he DOES seem to have comparable strength to his Exarch self, who was able to draw on the power of the Crystal Tower to empower himself. This may be due to having a combined soul, but may also just be a case of him already being that strong anyway, so it's hard to say.

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Originally Posted by Lunair

If anything, we have evidence that runs counter to this, instead, in the form of Golbez who's implied to be Azem's shard similar to the Warrior of Light, who you can fight AS a reaper, with your own avatar. While this might be a case of gameplay and story segregation, the lack of any sort of special dialogue to reference the matter makes me doubt it.

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One slight correction to this: we've never fought the Golbez that's implied to be our shard (the one we see flashbacks of in first-person, etc) - in the 6.5 dungeon, we see that he was mercy-killed by Durante during the Contramemoria. The 'Golbez' we're dealing with in 6.x is Durante, wearing Golbez's old armor and taking on his name.

That only reinforces your point, though - the OG Golbez's soul is currently sealed within a memoria crystal, so he can't possibly be our avatar.

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Originally Posted by 17cupsofcoffee

One slight correction to this: we've never fought the Golbez that's implied to be our shard (the one we see flashbacks of in first-person, etc) - in the 6.5 dungeon, we see that he was mercy-killed by Durante during the Contramemoria. The 'Golbez' we're dealing with in 6.x is Durante, wearing Golbez's old armor and taking on his name.

That only reinforces your point, though - the OG Golbez's soul is currently sealed within a memoria crystal, so he can't possibly be our avatar.

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Also, 'Golbez's flashback was first-person' is bad evidence for Golbez being an Azem shard, because there's been three first-person Echo flashbacks, and the other two are people who have the strongest differing cases to not possibly be a shard of Azem: G'raha and Elidibus.

It's also one of only two pieces of evidence for it I've ever heard; the other one is that we didn't see Golbez's head, which doesn't even make sense as evidence because the likely reason is because that'd be too much effort to bother doing (Golbez is a monster model, so he literally does not have a head under that helmet by normal circumstances), and the WoL saw their face and never reacted. So really, the case folds like wet tissue paper.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also, 'Golbez's flashback was first-person' is bad evidence for Golbez being an Azem shard, because there's been three first-person Echo flashbacks, and the other two are people who have the strongest differing cases to not possibly be a shard of Azem: G'raha and Elidibus.

It's also one of only two pieces of evidence for it I've ever heard; the other one is that we didn't see Golbez's head, which doesn't even make sense as evidence because the likely reason is because that'd be too much effort to bother doing (Golbez is a monster model, so he literally does not have a head under that helmet by normal circumstances), and the WoL saw their face and never reacted. So really, the case folds like wet tissue paper.

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Right, like... I don't think it's impossible that Golbez could turn out to be an Azem shard if the writers decide to capitalize on the speculation, but I don't really buy that it was their intent when they were writing the 6.x storyline at the time. The first-person perspective seemed to be used to obscure the twist-reveal, in the same way it was used for G'raha (whether or not we all saw it coming -- in either case).

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

Right, like... I don't think it's impossible that Golbez could turn out to be an Azem shard if the writers decide to capitalize on the speculation, but I don't really buy that it was their intent when they were writing the 6.x storyline at the time. The first-person perspective seemed to be used to obscure the twist-reveal, in the same way it was used for G'raha (whether or not we all saw it coming -- in either case).

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I think all three of them had the intent of obscuring identity. With Elidibus it was a little bit funkier, the intention is to completely disorient and not even giving you a perspective character is part of that, but the angle with all three is 'you don't get to see who this flashback is from'.

I suspect it's also that they just know it makes for a very striking and unusual way to frame a scene for this game; first-person hasn't lost its novelty and its uncanny nature (that isn't how the camera normally moves so it's always a bit off-putting), so they know to deploy it when it's special. None of the first-person scenes we've ever had were dull; on top of the three Echo flashbacks we also have the start of In From the Cold, and 7.3 had a brief cut from Wuk Lamat's eyes.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I think all three of them had the intent of obscuring identity. With Elidibus it was a little bit funkier, the intention is to completely disorient and not even giving you a perspective character is part of that, but the angle with all three is 'you don't get to see who this flashback is from'.

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I didn't comment on Elidibus just because I couldn't recall the scene in question lol. He certainly isn't a shard, regardless.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Also, 'Golbez's flashback was first-person' is bad evidence for Golbez being an Azem shard, because there's been three first-person Echo flashbacks, and the other two are people who have the strongest differing cases to not possibly be a shard of Azem: G'raha and Elidibus.

It's also one of only two pieces of evidence for it I've ever heard; the other one is that we didn't see Golbez's head, which doesn't even make sense as evidence because the likely reason is because that'd be too much effort to bother doing (Golbez is a monster model, so he literally does not have a head under that helmet by normal circumstances), and the WoL saw their face and never reacted. So really, the case folds like wet tissue paper.

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There are a lot of irregularities regarding Contramemoria Era (CE) Golbez that could be considered context clues beyond his face never being seen and the first person cutscene. Granted it rests in the "unproven and unprovable" category, but the idea is clearly something the writers are suggesting.

1. First-Person Cutscene
   -First person cutscenes are extremely unusual in this game, and are either critically important to the plot or used for humor. There is nothing humorous about any cutscene with CE Golbez.
2. Face Not Shown
   -CE Golbez's face is not revealed. Using a monster rig means he's a unique model (both Varis and Zenos also use unique "monster" rigs instead of using standard character creator models), but it is still highly unusual to not have revealed his face when they could have done so. The choice not to do so may have been to preserve the surprise that the Golbez we know in the present is Durante assuming his identity, but it was a transparent "surprise" that makes little sense to try and spring on people unless you're going for a different angle.
3. Unvoiced
   -Similar to his face not being shown, this could have been done to try and conceal present day Golbez's true identity as Durante but it's still very odd considering he is unvoiced in (first person) cutscenes where other characters are, and anyone with a good ear (in EN at least) could tell you that Durante and present-day Golbez have the same voice (suggesting they are the same person). Maybe it's not as obvious in other languages, but one can't help but conclude this was an intentional stylistic choice for a reason.
4. Memoria Crystal Resonance
   -The Warrior of Light is able to achieve some form of resonance with CE Golbez's memoria crystal, first viewing their memories in first-person and then reliving them (again in first person) as the latter 2/3 of the Lunar Subterrane dungeon. This phenomenon is not observed with any other memoria crystal.
5. Similar Role
   -The Warrior of Light and CE Golbez share similar roles as hope bringers who inspire others to do good, and their death signals an irrevocable turn for the worse leading to an apocalypse (the WoL in the 8UC timeline, CE Golbez in the Contramemoria).

Coincidence? Perhaps, but there's too many coincidences to just write it off as nothing but. It's not definitively answered, but like the EE3 saying the Reaper Avatar might be their Thirteenth reflection it's deliberately left ambiguous.

EDIT
Apropos of nothing, can we get Golbez's armor as a cash shop outfit? We've gotten pretty much every important NPC from Dawntrail and loads of IX cosplay gear (both in-game and as cash shop outfits). Give the dudes some fashion choices after Garnet, Beatrix, and Endless / Simulant Sphene got theirs added.

Plus Real Sphene and Zero's PLD gear being added, just not available yet.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

-CE Golbez's face is not revealed. Using a monster rig means he's a unique model (both Varis and Zenos also use unique "monster" rigs instead of using standard character creator models), but it is still highly unusual to not have revealed his face when they could have done so. The choice not to do so may have been to preserve the surprise that the Golbez we know in the present is Durante assuming his identity, but it was a transparent "surprise" that makes little sense to try and spring on people unless you're going for a different angle.

[...]

EDIT
Apropos of nothing, can we get Golbez's armor as a cash shop outfit? We've gotten pretty much every important NPC from Dawntrail and loads of IX cosplay gear (both in-game and as cash shop outfits). Give the dudes some fashion choices after Garnet, Beatrix, and Endless / Simulant Sphene got theirs added.

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I mean, one of these kinda defeats the other. Getting technical, Golbez is a reused King Thordan; that means that, rigging-wise, there isn't a face in there and you'd have to basically make a whole new model to put one on. This is what the Blue Mage quests essentially did when they used the same model for Siegfried, but with more transparency; 'unmasked' Seigfried is just a regular roegadyn and we went in knowing that. While I can't claim to know the entire developmental process that went into that scene after the Lunar Subterrane, I'm sure 'it's mroe effort than it's worth for us to make Golbez a face' was a factor.

Similarly, Golbez's armor can't just be given to a player in the way that Sphene's could, becuase it's literally not built to fit a player model in there; you'd basically have to make a whole new armor for that. I honestly agree that we need more male-coded 'premium' outfits, but that is the struggle for a lot of them: there's a lot of male characters that just aren't built for that. The two I can immediately think of that we haven't gotten are Raubahn and Emet, and... you know what, why haven't we got their outfits? Raubahn's a normal highlander (albeit these days he has the 'left arm' scale zeroed out), and Emet's only morally and psychologically a monster.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Memoria Crystal Resonance
-The Warrior of Light is able to achieve some form of resonance with CE Golbez's memoria crystal, first viewing their memories in first-person and then reliving them (again in first person) as the latter 2/3 of the Lunar Subterrane dungeon. This phenomenon is not observed with any other memoria crystal.

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The Warrior of Light had an Echo flashback at first, something that has never required "resonance" (they also saw an Echo flashback of G'raha Tia in first person) and the resonance affected the entire party, not just the Warrior of Light—if you go in with allied NPCs they also react to the memoria.

I just don't personally see anything there.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I mean, one of these kinda defeats the other. Getting technical, Golbez is a reused King Thordan; that means that, rigging-wise, there isn't a face in there and you'd have to basically make a whole new model to put one on. This is what the Blue Mage quests essentially did when they used the same model for Siegfried, but with more transparency; 'unmasked' Seigfried is just a regular roegadyn and we went in knowing that. While I can't claim to know the entire developmental process that went into that scene after the Lunar Subterrane, I'm sure 'it's mroe effort than it's worth for us to make Golbez a face' was a factor.

Similarly, Golbez's armor can't just be given to a player in the way that Sphene's could, becuase it's literally not built to fit a player model in there; you'd basically have to make a whole new armor for that. I honestly agree that we need more male-coded 'premium' outfits, but that is the struggle for a lot of them: there's a lot of male characters that just aren't built for that. The two I can immediately think of that we haven't gotten are Raubahn and Emet, and... you know what, why haven't we got their outfits? Raubahn's a normal highlander (albeit these days he has the 'left arm' scale zeroed out), and Emet's only morally and psychologically a monster.

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Valid point, and I will concede that men's fashion is harder to actually design.

That said, regarding unhelmeted Golbez if they have the resources to completely reskin King Thordan's rigging an alternate one with an actual head / face would be a pretty small ask.

Regarding premium outfits, eh... they made both Garnet's and Beatrix's from whole cloth, so to speak, so even if they had to do the same for something like Golbez's armor it's not out of the question. I... don't suppose it would sell quite as well, or at least not be quite as profitable (it's a much more ornate outfit, being based on Amano art and all, and likely has a more limited appeal).

Apropos of nothing, but Raubahn actually does use a unique model, as anyone who has run Castrum Abania and/or the Ala Mhigo dungeon with him in a Trust party can attest (that one does use a modified standard model, which makes him look shorter and less muscular). So they could release his outfit modified to still have the left arm, but again if it's not worth the cost of production...

Eh, who knows. Maybe if Evercold is "the VII expansion" we'll get some outfits from that game; I'd be happy with Barret's.

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Originally Posted by Zero-ELEC

The Warrior of Light had an Echo flashback at first, something that has never required "resonance" (they also saw an Echo flashback of G'raha Tia in first person) and the resonance affected the entire party, not just the Warrior of Light—if you go in with allied NPCs they also react to the memoria.

I just don't personally see anything there.

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I forgot the first one was an Echo flashback, but regardless, it doesn't change the fact CE Golbez's memoria crystal does things no other memoria crystal does, and only seems to do those things in our presence.

There's just too many coincidences piled up for me to ignore it as a possibility, which is probably the intent; it's fine if other people disagree.

I could never buy the Golbez theory. We aren't the shard of Hermes but we can access Hermes experience just fine. We the only one who can access memories because we have the echo and the others don't. No one in the party is reacting "what? How can that be? Is that derplander?! No way!!" with the face reveal. And Yoshida directed that he doesn't want our players to be associated with non-hero stuff. Ardbert was misguided, but unlike Golbez, he didn't torture a dragon for thousands of years

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Originally Posted by JepMZ

I could never buy the Golbez theory. We aren't the shard of Hermes but we can access Hermes experience just fine. We the only one who can access memories because we have the echo and the others don't. No one in the party is reacting "what? How can that be? Is that derplander?! No way!!" with the face reveal. And Yoshida directed that he doesn't want our players to be associated with non-hero stuff. Ardbert was misguided, but unlike Golbez, he didn't torture a dragon for thousands of years

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This theory pertains to the unambiguously heroic OG Golbez currently contained in a memoria crystal; not Durante, who's since taken up his name and armor.

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Originally Posted by JepMZ

I could never buy the Golbez theory. We aren't the shard of Hermes but we can access Hermes experience just fine. We the only one who can access memories because we have the echo and the others don't. No one in the party is reacting "what? How can that be? Is that derplander?! No way!!" with the face reveal. And Yoshida directed that he doesn't want our players to be associated with non-hero stuff. Ardbert was misguided, but unlike Golbez, he didn't torture a dragon for thousands of years

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The original Golbez, who people speculate being a shard and who's memories we saw, didn't torture anyone though.
They were a hero through and through.