MT/OT split is unnecessary.

I'm a bit concerned about the proposed MT/OT split that's apparently coming in 8.0. I mainly play GNB, which with the new proposed system would put me in the OT slot, but personally I prefer to play MT, but that would require me to play PLD, which in itself isn't a problem, since I like PLD too. However, when I play GNB, I don't want to get auto-slotted to the OT position, I still want to have the option to play in the MT position. Do you think the MT/OT split will just be a suggestion, or do you think it'll be a requirement?

It's hard to even understand what the point of the split is from what was in the presentation. We got one example, it was of the existing job that's the chosen MT, and the demo showed that it still had its OT tools in evolved mode.

I understand your concern, and I think your fear is completely reasonable.

This is exactly the main risk with an MT/OT split. If the system becomes restrictive, where one tank is forced to be MT and another is forced to be OT, then I think it would hurt player choice a lot.

Personally, I proposed a different solution.

I believe every tank should be able to play as both Main Tank and Off Tank. A tank should not be locked into one position just because of its job. If someone wants to play GNB as MT, they should still be able to do that. If someone wants to play PLD as OT, that should also be possible.

The real question is: how do we give every tank a stronger identity without making them all feel the same, and without creating restrictive rules?

My idea is more about dynamic defensive profiles rather than fixed MT/OT labels.

Instead of saying “this tank is MT” and “this tank is OT,” fights could include different types of defensive pressure, such as:

* Heavy attacks
* Multiple hit attacks
* Magic damage

Each tank could then have a different strength or reward depending on the situation.

For example, one tank might shine more against heavy physical hits, another against magic damage, another against multiple hit type of attacks. But all of them should still be able to MT or OT.

This would create real tank identity without forcing jobs into locked positions.

So instead of making PLD always MT and GNB always OT, the fight itself would create moments where each tank feels different and useful.

I wrote a longer post about this idea here if you want to read the full version:
Post Link

The goal should be to separate tank identity without removing freedom. Tanks should feel different, but they should not be restricted.

They've already said that the split will really only matter if you're looking at Savage and Ultimate level content, and even then it might just be a case of it being easier or more optimal to go with the intended split. All tanks will need to be able to perform the tole at lower difficulty combat content anyway since in 4 man content you can only have 1 tank or in Alliance Raids you need to have 3 tanks between the 24 players.

Basically we just don't know enough yet because we haven't seen what the toolkit of an Off Tank will be compared to what they have in mind for a Main Tank, and we also don't know how fight design and mechanics are intended to change in order to emphasize the split. Hopefully they will come out and clarify this soon so that we don't have to wait until Berlin (or even after) given the amount of hand wringing and speculation over the issue.

The split in tank roles is something that I found very curious, I'm not sure where the idea came from. It could be an attempt to replicate the distinction between shield and regen healers. My initial reaction is that it sounds overly strict and rigid, but it's not clear if that's how it will actually function. If tanks only lean slightly into either role and have the ability to fill both that will be fine.

They're comparing it to the way healers were split. All four healers in any combination can do any piece of content, but certain pairs are a better for bleeding edge content because they can cover different niches and don't have overlapping skills.

I like DRK and GNB, both soon to be OTs. I'll still be able to run all the content I enjoy on either tank. But, maybe in this new middle difficulty I'll look for a PLD or this shiny new tank. Shoot, maybe this shiny new tank is a dream job for me and I'll drop DRK/GNB like a hot rock and now I need to learn the quirks of always being the defacto MT.


We were discussing during Enuo because the tanks had to carry us over the last few percent of HP (those chasing lasers are a trivial joke with two players, they don't even swap) that this kind of thing with the tanks having so much solo survivability might be a reason to stick to reborn mode for as long as possible.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

It's hard to even understand what the point of the split is from what was in the presentation. We got one example, it was of the existing job that's the chosen MT, and the demo showed that it still had its OT tools in evolved mode.

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Yeah, I suspect it's just a term that perhaps the localizers didn't realize was so loaded. Just from what I've seen about the paladin changes, it will do just fine off tanking and perform counters just as well even if it isn't the one being directly hit, by flinging Holy Sheltron the way dark knights toss TBNs around but still get the benefit of the shield popping. It will just be somewhat harder to do and take more skill to get the counters, just like good TBN usage does now...except that not using TBN that way doesn't cost the dark knight anything unless they are really min/maxing their edges, while an evolved paladin not getting their counters will likely suffer some. Paladins and the new tank are just going to be a bit better at absorbing direct damage (the way paladin already is) and may have a stronger counter than just TBN/Edge, and dark knight, warrior, and gunbreaker are going to be a bit better at group mitigation (the way they already are) and possibly have stronger boss debuffs. It will probably be something noticeable but not something so drastic that it will force players out of their preferred spots on the aggro table.

I don't see any reason why evolved dark knight will lose the TBN/Edge "counter" it has now--it has that in PVP, so Mr. Prime recognizes it's part of the job identity...while the slide said "counters" was one thing MT would specialize in. So I don't think the split is going to be quite as stark as "MT/OT" suggests. Likely, as others have said, something that will mainly come up when really optimizing groups for very difficult content.

I think the split is a whole load of nothing, in practice. Think about it for a moment:

• The split is stated to be exclusive to Evolved mode, which means it's not a split (although the PF setting will probably split it by default).
• To make the split effective, they'd have to change Reborn to be different, and they want to keep it mostly what it is now in case people don't like Evolved.
• OTs are meant to specialize in "damage reduction", yet Evolved PLD has been shown to be fully capable of this also due to having Reprisal, Passage and Divine still.
• OTs have to be able to main tank in 4-person content like Criterion, Criterion Savage, Quantum and Dungeons.
• OTs have to be able to tank when tank swapping.

The split is a load of nothing and as it stands from what we know, if I was in a party with an "OT" and they wanted to MT I probably wouldn't care.

I'm just going to copy my comments from elsewhere... I think the split is going to be a lot of nothing, too.

You'll have to be able to do a dungeon with any tank. You'll have to be able queue into DF content and do it without a problem with any combination of tanks. Two DRKs have to be able to tank a normal raid or trial.

I know a lot of players just do Savage or Ultimate and don't care about normal content, but I am confident they're not going to design these jobs in a way that breaks the experience there. Like Yoshida said on stage, only 20% of players set foot in a Savage raid. Every tank will have all the necessary tools for tanking, because changing that would break their game for most of its players.

The evolved Paladin they showed off, besides consolidating some buttons, was really only changed by the addition of the counter system, where you gain an attack by blocking a tankbuster at the last moment. Presumably the new tank job will also have a similar counter attack. And presumably the off-tanks won't have that counter but something different instead.

I don't know where to begin speculating about what that could be, but I don't think the jobs will be any more different from what we have now than the Paladin they showed.

Having two "main tanks" might cause problems, though, if they both have counter mechanic. They'll have to trade aggro or lose that counter-attack. Evolved PLD could toss Intervention on their cotank to get the counter off the hit the other tank takes, but the average tank player in this game can barely mit themselves. And at level 50, half of them seem to think Provoke is part of their rotation.

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Originally Posted by FuturePastNow

Having two "main tanks" might cause problems, though, if they both have counter mechanic. They'll have to trade aggro or lose that counter-attack. Evolved PLD could toss Intervention on their cotank to get the counter off the hit the other tank takes, but the average tank player in this game can barely mit themselves. And at level 50, half of them seem to think Provoke is part of their rotation.

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If what I read elsewhere is correct, evolved Holy Sheltron will be able to be used on an ally and will proc counters. Because using Holy Sheltron already requires timing it pretty narrowly, using it on an ally to get the full benefit will take even more skill, but it will still be possible to do. That's how a paladin will get counters as an off tank, but also why off tanking as a paladin won't be the ideal location for them. It likely won't be like TBN, which has a very generous 10 second window; Holy Sheltron's mitigation is frontloaded into the first 4 seconds and then drops off, so it will probably need to be used in that 4 second window to get the counter.

I hope they can make counter work more like the D&D sentinel feat, where counters are just "punishing attacks that happen in close range." Since tanks are all in melee range of the boss most of the time, that shouldn't be a problem.

I hope the split works something like this:

In the subrole abilities:
1. "MT"s > Strong 1-person mit (can be used on anyone), weak enemy debuff/party mit
"OT"s > Strong enemy debuff/party mit, weak 1-person mit (can be used on anyone)

2. The enemy debuffs/"party mits" do not stack together, and the 1-person mits do not stack together.
A 1-person mit and a debuff/party mit can stack together. ("MTs" and "OTs" are equally defensive on their own.)

3. The "MT"s + "OT"s role skills give the greatest protection when used together, making the roles complimentary.

4. The strength of party mit, invlulns and tank swaps in general means OT/OT will be stronger than MT/MT, maybe even as strong as MT/OT. This is actually fine because if we assume an equal number of players on every class, there are more OTs than MTs, so some OTs will have to partner together. This may be a problem when there's six tanks, but that's a long ways away.

However, MTs may struggle if their kit is selfish: if their strong mits can't be shared, and they can't lose aggro, they become sub-optimal in more situations.

Roles can be done without giving either class a penalty or advantage for playing in an aggro position, which I think would be optimal. But they have to decide to do it that way. I'm looking forward to hearing more in July.

Idk the system sounds half baked from what we saw. Off tanks will protect hte party, ok but then why did paladin still ahve passage and veil and reprisal?
It just sounds like all that'll happen is pld/ new job will have 1 counter move that makes them being main tank a dps increase. which sounds really stupid and barely a difference between the tanks.

Personally i hope it doesn't matter cause i prefer to play paladin as an off tank myself

I think just see how it plays and am sure feedback will be collected if enough pushback or just play another role.