[REQUEST] Give Limited Jobs Evolved Forms!

Evolved jobs are the perfect opportunity to have the best of both worlds for limited jobs, allowing them to participate in msq and current content alongside other jobs while keeping their powerful, limited content in tact.

Have their evolved form toggle the spellbook or bestiary off in exchange for a skillset that is balanced for regular play (with possibly cosmetic exceptions, like choice of pet skin or spell skin). Then, let their reborn form retain its overpowered nature that exists as it is now, allowing them to do unique job content like carnivale or crucible.

Limited jobs are great in that they bring a fun form of side content, but i think not allowing them to have evolved forms is a HUGE missed opportunity to unite players who like blue mage or beast master but sit on opposite ends of the limited job topic.

All that said, fanfest was great and I'm looking forward to Evercold ^_^

only limited job so far, until beast master releases, is blu and it is my understanding that blu's actions are severely limited unless you go farm for those off enemies. if the basis of evolved is shortening the list of actions to make it easier, blu than does not need an evolved form at all because there is not much to reduce from the base job (again i am not factoring in the abilities off an enemy but the job's basic abilities). so if you think about it, it has evolved mode by default as it is. of course if you add in the abilities off enemies it is a whole other story but not every player will get them all and i am sure they are doing things based off the average player and not those who are on the opposite side of that spectrum who would have them all.

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Originally Posted by Hatori_Elric

only limited job so far, until beast master releases, is blu and it is my understanding that blu's actions are severely limited unless you go farm for those off enemies. if the basis of evolved is shortening the list of actions to make it easier, blu than does not need an evolved form at all because there is not much to reduce from the base job (again i am not factoring in the abilities off an enemy but the job's basic abilities). so if you think about it, it has evolved mode by default as it is. of course if you add in the abilities off enemies it is a whole other story but not every player will get them all and i am sure they are doing things based off the average player and not those who are on the opposite side of that spectrum who would have them all.

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The idea is more so to give limited jobs a curated set of skills to allow them to play in regular content with everyone! I imagine your spell collection progress would remain unaffected by toggling evolved mode on, giving you automatic access to the spells you need for evolved mode. This would alleviate any concerns about needing to unlock spells before participating in normal content, or for people who want to bring blue mage into world first races and stuff!

unless they completely throw away what everyone has done on blu, obviously than making a lot more people angry, i think leaving blu the way it is right now is likely for the best with what i stated above being the reasoning for. the blu class specifically is the way it is, not just from the perspective of ffxiv but its the way it is in other ff games as well. if you remove the need to gather these abilities, than it really is no longer blu at all in that case.

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Originally Posted by Hatori_Elric

unless they completely throw away what everyone has done on blu, obviously than making a lot more people angry, i think leaving blu the way it is right now is likely for the best with what i stated above being the reasoning for. the blu class specifically is the way it is, not just from the perspective of ffxiv but its the way it is in other ff games as well. if you remove the need to gather these abilities, than it really is no longer blu at all in that case.

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With all due respect, this is all addressed in the original post. They would not need to throw away everything done to blue mage NOR would they need to stop updating the limited element of it. Adding an evolved form would just be an alternate form of progression and playstyle! Spell collection would still exist in the reborn form and updates would still mean people get to have fun going back to play blue mage the original way.

Absolutely should do something like this, heck, they could help address the "less freedom" nature of the second skillset with the upcoming skill glamour system, lets say by default your main AOE skill for this version of Blue is Glower, however with the glamour you could make it Bad Breath if you've also unlocked that spell etc.

I like the idea. They could pick a curated set of skills for evolve mode. If you have already collected them playing the limited version up to 8.0 you're good to go.
Switch to evolve mode and they're unlocked.

If you start fresh in 8.0 you'll have to gather the skills/beasts like you normally would. (If it's technically possible you could do it in evolve mode for evolve-mode-relevant skills. If that's too convoluted you could gather them playing the limited version and they'd automatically unlock in the evolved form as a consequence).

I don't think it would hurt the jobs if their progression to unlock their abilities differs from the regular 21 jobs.
After all collecting spells/beasts is the job fantasy, so why not also make it a premise in evolved mode and give it a little flavour.
Giving them gameplay/progression individuality in that regard, with an outcome that is still relevant for up-to-date regular content, could even be a selling point and intrigue more people to try them out.

Unlocking skills via means other than levelling isn't new to regular jobs either. Esp. when it comes to older jobs you had to unlock certain skills through job quests. So why not allow blu and bst to unlock their evolved skills via their own special path.

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Originally Posted by Shadowshinra

Absolutely should do something like this, heck, they could help address the "less freedom" nature of the second skillset with the upcoming skill glamour system, lets say by default your main AOE skill for this version of Blue is Glower, however with the glamour you could make it Bad Breath if you've also unlocked that spell etc.

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Yesss! Exactly what I was thinking.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

I don't think it would hurt the jobs if their progression to unlock their abilities differs from the regular 21 jobs.

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Absolutely agree with everything you've said, but I do know that the devs had mentioned learning spells as something they see as a pain point if blue mage was considered a normal job. They specifically cited raiders playing as blue mage slowing their party down by having to learn spells (specifically on xpac launches) before they can raid.

Would love learning spells as flavor for the evolved mode too, but I would be okay with automatic unlocks if it addresses the dev's concerns or the concerns of other players!

That's a valid point. Admittedly I don't know how long it takes to collect an individual spell. Is it a big time sink or is the process itself rather short?

Maybe this could be avoided by giving evolve mode only the same amount of new spells per expac other jobs get? When a new expac drops you'll have to level your regular jobs to the new level cap anyway.
And I assume, since evolve mode is all about button/skill efficiency, we will probably get fewer skills per expac than in the past.
So if you're in a raid group it would be on you as a BLU/BST to collect the skills on your path to the next level cap.
Since you only have to do this once and the level cap (and with that your number of max skills) stays the same for the next couple of years until the level cap is increased again, collecting spells shouldn't be an extra burden past the early phase of [Expac number].0?

there's nothing to evolve with Blue Mage or Beastmaster. Beastmaster needs 60 more levels I guess. lol

But Blue Mage you mix and match spells you collect that's awesome and fun.
Beastmaster is tied to the Beasts you use... but we really don't know until we play it.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

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I think it could work! It USED to take quite a while to get spells because the chance of learning them was not guaranteed, especially for high end trials and raids. They buffed it during Endwalker to be either guaranteed or very high chance though, so its pretty easy now.


A lot of it is definitely going to be contextual to how many skills we learn per expac going forward, but having the necessary skills be learned from monsters/trials along the msq path could definitely help!

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Originally Posted by Nadda

there's nothing to evolve with Blue Mage or Beastmaster.

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Sure there is! Even if you look at it from the original design perspective of evolved jobs, blue mage can be very daunting for new players in that the rotation and playstyle is not very clear if you choose to take on the harder challenges with it. With so many spells to slot and very few combo action indicators, it can feel overwhelming. This is not to say it needs changes, but it would fit perfectly with the original design philosophy of reducing the button bloat and providing players with a new style of combat.

Again, just as a reminder, this is not a petition to remove what people already love about limited jobs; just a request for another way for people to enjoy it :)

They've said that you can freely swap between reborn mode and evolved mode any time outside of battle, so they'd probably have to add a way to limit the limited jobs from doing that if they were going to make an unlimited evolved mode.

Only if the other 21 jobs get their own exclusive limited content too, not really fair for BLU and BST to get unique stuff all to themselves AND get to do all standard content while regular jobs get only half as much to do overall (and most of that standard stuff only really appeals to midcore and hardcore players anyway).

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

Only if the other 21 jobs get their own exclusive limited content too, not really fair for BLU and BST to get unique stuff all to themselves AND get to do all standard content while regular jobs get only half as much to do overall (and most of that standard stuff only really appeals to midcore and hardcore players anyway).

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I dont think its "not fair" when you are free to switch to those jobs all on one character and play that content for yourself, as it is just side content, but I do agree it would be cool to get more limited content for other jobs! I have had the thought myself, and it could be interesting to see in what ways they choose to make other jobs more powerful and what minigames might come with those!

Evolved is the perfect opprotunity to introduce a properly curated set of spells that gives blue mage a very unique identity that is playable in MSQ and roulette and other content. Like one button could just be morphing and do various different sorts of dots. Another could be a morphing button meant for boosting your potencies like with Boost and Off Guard and Moon Flute.

Good thing I checked. I was going to make a thread on this subject. So, I'll just post what I was going to here instead.

Evolved Limited Jobs.
So, this came about while thinking of the 7.5 and 8.0 updates.

Here are the bullet points.

Cap limited jobs at 80 and after finishing the Job quest line you unlock evolved mode.
Evolved mode is a version of the job that can be used normally even at expansion cap.
The jobs will have a set of balanced spells, beasts, ETC picked out for use.
(Remove element damage, effects and change potencies as needed.)
Their weapons (Such as Blue mage canes.) will scale item level and stats with job level. (Like the preorder earrings as an example.)
Addition of LB.
Example: Blue Mage caster LB 3. Countless needles.
Spawns a barrel cactus that rains down needles in a circle AOE.

The following is my justification and can be skipped over. Only typing it for posterity.

With role quests added in SHB all jobs got their final quest at 80.
(New jobs get a mini job quest line. However, they also have an end point.)
Because the Blue Mage's advertised update got axed its clear limited jobs are not that sustainable as a feature. Instead, the time and funds for updating limited job content can be used to update their evolved mode.
(Again, Blue got axed this expansion.)

Last this is a personal take. Also, maybe I am misunderstanding something said about the 7.5 update.

First Blue Mage 70-80 update. I had been looking forward to leveling trusts and Blue Mage together. However, I couldn't run dungeons with the trusts as a Blue mage.
You know the system in the game that is solo with NPCs. I gave up on both trust and limited jobs after that. Only doing the bare minimum needed for Job quest story.

Now this is maybe my misunderstanding but if limited jobs are not going to be able to do tribe quests that is making them so limited now to being almost pointless.
So, with evolved mode it would keep the jobs alive in a big way.
If you want evolved Blue and Beast, you'll need to complete their final job quests having to engage with their limited versions.
That is the ultimate reward finally getting to take Blue Mage and later Beast Master into future MSQ, Quests and Duties.

Final note: I'm aware the system is still being developed and improved on before 8.0.
Still the announcement of Evolved jobs has cut away the apathy enough to hope.
So, this is one road that could be taken for the future of jobs themselves.

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Originally Posted by TKMXIV

Addition of LB.
Example: Blue Mage caster LB 3. Countless needles.
Spawns a barrel cactus that rains down needles in a circle AOE.

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Ooooo I hadnt even thought of the fact they'd need to be given an LB3. I would love something showboaty like PCT's LB3 for blue mage, but I think a lot of the learnable primal spells would also make great LB3 animations if they slowed them down a bit. Hopefully they would let you action glamour between them! The tsukuyomi spell in particular would be such a fun LB3 <3

Agreed, Evolved mode would be the perfect way to have both a version of BLU that is 'overpowered and wacky' as it currently is for those that like it that way, and a way for it to be able to participate in current content.

A long time ago (like, before the SHB additions to BLU) I was able to make a spreadsheet of actions that would function effectively as 'character action skins' of one another. In total, I had it down to 25 'spell categories', unfortunately a little higher than the Evolved mode's target of 16.

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https://i.gyazo.com/c43c12a3b4b38138...1f1ec6f460.png

https://i.gyazo.com/5e7ee7a858305fc3...7dc2c068bd.png

(open in new tab if they're too small to read)
Note, any skill, while having slightly different aesthetics, will do the same damage regardless of it's animation. For example, in the '60s Guaranteed Crit/DH GCD' section, we have Rose of Destruction, Triple Trident, and Matra Magic. While we might see 8 damage splats from Matra Magic, or 3 from Triple Trident, or just one from Rose, the damage values of adding those splats from Matra together would have equalled the splat of Rose, had Rose been the spell that was cast. Functionally, the damage behind the scenes is the same, it's just how that number is presented to the player that changes. Same goes for any other skill compared to it's counterparts in the category.

For gameplay, as I hastily outlined above, it'd be a fairly reactive and engaging gameplay style. You'd use your big damage stuff for your 2mins, pool stuff like the 40s OGCD charges so you can blast in 2min harder, but the gameplay loop of the 'filler' would be where the class keeps you on your toes. All of the singletarget, Circle, Cone, etc skills are equal potency. However, when you cast Martyn's Shortcoming-Seeking Scan (Libra), you get a buff for, let's say 5 spells. This buff grants a potency buff to one of those shapes, chosen at random. Thus, the gameplay is to react to that 'found weakness' and exploit it.

edit: spreadsheet has an error, Garuda and Ifrit would be 30s, one charge. Titan/Shiva/Ravana/Suzaku would be 40s, up to 3 charges

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present-day edit: Any instance of 'Martyn', change it to 'Azuro', since he'd be yelling the names of these actions while performing in the Carnivale while he's in his Azuro persona

Of course, the rotation would need to be edited a bit, or some categories of action removed, due to the removal of the 2min meta

The main concern with making BLU unlimited/able to participate in current content, is the loss of the current BLU and the unique content it provides, but Reborn being a time-capsule of the current BLU means that it's not an issue

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Originally Posted by TKMXIV

Example: Blue Mage caster LB 3. Countless needles.

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Numerous Needles

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Originally Posted by Tabbs

Evolved jobs are the perfect opportunity to have the best of both worlds for limited jobs, allowing them to participate in msq and current content alongside other jobs while keeping their powerful, limited content in tact.

Have their evolved form toggle the spellbook or bestiary off in exchange for a skillset that is balanced for regular play (with possibly cosmetic exceptions, like choice of pet skin or spell skin). Then, let their reborn form retain its overpowered nature that exists as it is now, allowing them to do unique job content like carnivale or crucible.

Limited jobs are great in that they bring a fun form of side content, but i think not allowing them to have evolved forms is a HUGE missed opportunity to unite players who like blue mage or beast master but sit on opposite ends of the limited job topic.

All that said, fanfest was great and I'm looking forward to Evercold ^_^

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I'd really like that too, if we're introducing gameplay toggles like that, why not have a "non-limited" variation ? Even better, make these non-limited unlockable : unlock your limited job as normal, and the game highlight specific skills you'll need to learn. Once you got them all (basically having the full toolkit), enable non-limited mode !

Only real issue would be that you'd need to prop up BLU and BST directly to max lvl cap, which means doing the limited content for said level caps.

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Originally Posted by Tabbs

I dont think its "not fair" when you are free to switch to those jobs all on one character and play that content for yourself, as it is just side content, but I do agree it would be cool to get more limited content for other jobs! I have had the thought myself, and it could be interesting to see in what ways they choose to make other jobs more powerful and what minigames might come with those!

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Not everyone wants to just switch jobs/play all jobs on the same character though, otherwise we wouldn't have the problems we do right now where people feel like they have nothing fun to play or feel like they're being pushed out of their role. (Healers get the worst of it, but now tanks are having their own crisis over the whole "main and off tank" divide that's coming.)

It's always been the trade-off that BLU and BST got their own unique content in exchange for not doing standard content, which feels like a steal because standard content is actually kinda boring compared to what I get to do with BLU (and BST already sounds better than any evolved job so far).

It's also why I never understood this obsession with wanting a standard BLU because it would play identical to every other caster right down to a homogenized kit and rotation. Might as well call it "Beige Mage" at that point. But I'd be willing to accept BLU joining the tasteless gray mass of standard jobs if those same jobs got to have stuff of their own to do, otherwise it just feels like BLU being treated super extra special for no real reason while the other jobs get nothing.

Reborn blue mage is the limited job while Evolved is an official, static hotbar balanced around standard content. I like this, and it's something I've said blue mage should get for years. It's been a disservice to players who love the blue mage fantasy to not be allowed to actually engage with it outside of the extremely limited selection of content blue mage can access and it gives everyone what they want. People who like the blue mage challenge log keep the ongoing opportunity to challenge old content with the existing spellbook while players who want to take blue mage into the MSQ and use it for roulettes, raids, and other content can have a job for them as well. There's no downside here.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

A long time ago (like, before the SHB additions to BLU) I was able to make a spreadsheet of actions that would function effectively as 'character action skins' of one another. In total, I had it down to 25 'spell categories', unfortunately a little higher than the Evolved mode's target of 16.

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This is a lovely writeup! There is definitely a toooon of overlap in spells (something which can get to be disappointing with the limited version). Hopefully if the devs consider this suggestion, they see this! With the action glamour system they'd already have so much headway on blue mage haha.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

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If someone doesnt want to switch jobs that is a personal issue. It sounds to me like those people already dont want to play blue mage or beast master if they are unwilling to switch, so the content must not be that enticing for them.

That said, I'm all for other jobs getting side content as well, but it deserves its own thread rather than being hidden in the topic of another one. Perhaps you can link it here after you make it, its a related topic and I'd throw a like ^^

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

It's also why I never understood this obsession with wanting a standard BLU because it would play identical to every other caster right down to a homogenized kit and rotation.

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To me at least, I been feeling for years at this point that blue mage kind of needed a graduation moment.

And there is actually kind of a reason for such a moment in-world for it to happen. That after evaulation by a shaman* from the whalaqee people after undergoing a trial, usually the student is another member from that culture but not always, the shaman deems if the blue mage student has successfully passed or not. On passing the student becomes a fully fledged blue mage.

So after the level 80 quest, one more quest, have a member from the whalaqee people talk to the player, this person explains they been watching your progress and that you as the player have gone above and beyond what most students have gone through and so they would like to impart upon you knowledge of how to fully unlock your potential (aka evolved) along with a secondary quest reward that is a cane that actually has primary and secondary stats and still has two materia slots.

* = The term shaman is used in the japanese text of the game and is more used to refer to an instructor/teacher/evaluator of students as it does in english for example.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

People who like the blue mage challenge log keep the ongoing opportunity to challenge old content with the existing spellbook while players who want to take blue mage into the MSQ and use it for roulettes, raids, and other content can have a job for them as well. There's no downside here.

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That's assuming Square-Enix bothers to maintain the limited part of it once they give it a standard kit. Keep in mind they ALREADY DID THIS when they cancelled the BLU update this expansion, or how people already assume that reborn jobs will eventually be patched out and jobs become evolved only.

Personally, losing what made BLU unique and actually feel like its job from other games in the franchise just so it can become another bog-standard job doing dull content isn't a good trade-off to me.
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Originally Posted by Tabbs

It sounds to me like those people already dont want to play blue mage or beast master if they are unwilling to switch, so the content must not be that enticing for them.

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I could say the same for those who keep wanting to turn BLU into Gray Mage #5. If they don't like its limited form, they have other options to choose from to do their roulettes and raids as a caster, and they don't sound like they actually enjoy what makes BLU and BST unique if they want to lock it down to a handful of PF-compliant skills.

I don't want Square-Enix getting the bright idea that they can butcher and homogenize BLU for half the time and effort and still get praised for it while limited BLU gets retired along with reborn jobs. I don't want to lose the BLU I know in return for something that was a husk of its former self because their budget won't allow both, doubly so when that same budget screwed it over once already in the expansion where it SHOULD have had a presence because it took place in the damn continent the job originates from.

Even if you and others aren't asking for limited BLU to be done away with or ruined, it's still a valid concern based on how SE has acted so far.

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Originally Posted by Tabbs

With all due respect, this is all addressed in the original post. They would not need to throw away everything done to blue mage NOR would they need to stop updating the limited element of it. Adding an evolved form would just be an alternate form of progression and playstyle! Spell collection would still exist in the reborn form and updates would still mean people get to have fun going back to play blue mage the original way.

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then whats the point in collecting spells when i can just get a curated amount and play whatever i want? there is no fun in collecting spells and leveling anyways. Adding a limited job was a mistake to begin with, but in this case might as well un-limit it and rework into another two casters

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

That's assuming Square-Enix bothers to maintain the limited part of it once they give it a standard kit. Keep in mind they ALREADY DID THIS when they cancelled the BLU update this expansion, or how people already assume that reborn jobs will eventually be patched out and jobs become evolved only.

Personally, losing what made BLU unique and actually feel like its job from other games in the franchise just so it can become another bog-standard job doing dull content isn't a good trade-off to me.
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I could say the same for those who keep wanting to turn BLU into Gray Mage #5. If they don't like its limited form, they have other options to choose from to do their roulettes and raids as a caster, and they don't sound like they actually enjoy what makes BLU and BST unique if they want to lock it down to a handful of PF-compliant skills.

I don't want Square-Enix getting the bright idea that they can butcher and homogenize BLU for half the time and effort and still get praised for it while limited BLU gets retired along with reborn jobs. I don't want to lose the BLU I know in return for something that was a husk of its former self because their budget won't allow both, doubly so when that same budget screwed it over once already in the expansion where it SHOULD have had a presence because it took place in the damn continent the job originates from.

Even if you and others aren't asking for limited BLU to be done away with or ruined, it's still a valid concern based on how SE has acted so far.

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Limited Blue Mage can be the most exciting and engaging job in the entire game, but it doesn’t really matter because I can’t do anything as blue mage. Giving it a stable kit to engage with all content shouldn’t have to mean making it a generic reskin of other casters. PVE job kits should be more unique and fun, and Blue Mage could very easily have one, and I think that’s what should be asked of it.

That would be almost impossible considering that blue mage changes spells frequently and depends on the content itself. Also most of blue mage spells are instant cast so I don't know what you want more from it...

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I could say the same for those who keep wanting to turn BLU into Gray Mage #5. If they don't like its limited form, they have other options to choose from to do their roulettes and raids as a caster, and they don't sound like they actually enjoy what makes BLU and BST unique if they want to lock it down to a handful of PF-compliant skills.

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Blue Mage currently not participate in:

• Duty Roulette for PvE (Trials, Any Dungeons, Normal Raids, Alliance Raids, Mentor)
• PvP (Frontlines, Rival Wings, and Crystalline Conflict)
• Field Operations (Eureka, Bozja, and Occult Crescent)
• Deep Dungeons (Palace, Heaven, Orthos, Pilgrim)
• Main Story Quests (First-time completion and NG+)

What Blue Mage can do and is known for:

• Blue Parties (Dungeons, Trials, Normal Raids of varying difficulties)
• Treasure Dungeons (Soloable)
• Soloing a good number of Dungeons/Trials/Normal Raids
• Fates
• Masked Carnival

Oh and let me not forget to mention the umbrella incident with blue mage where the new weapon for the job couldn't even be obtained from Another Aloalo criterion dungeon. And since beastmaster ate all of blue mage's resources for Dawntrail, we can't even do the criterion dungeons this expansion when we normally would have if it weren't for Beastmaster.

And I am going to be real, its not wanting it to be butchered, its wanting an alternate version of blue mage to engage with the rest of the content. After all, blue mage came out on January 15th 2019. By the time we get evercold that is going to be Eight Full Years. That this is the request to expand its availbaility of content has been a thing since it was originally ARR-only. And now, in 7.56, we are going back to ARR with another limited job with what little content that it will be able to do with other players or solo.

Like no really, think about it. When that new tank and physical ranged come out in 8.0? They are both going to have a larger amount of content they can do because they are not limited.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I could say the same for those who keep wanting to turn BLU into Gray Mage #5. If they don't like its limited form, they have other options to choose from to do their roulettes and raids as a caster, and they don't sound like they actually enjoy what makes BLU and BST unique if they want to lock it down to a handful of PF-compliant skills.

I don't want Square-Enix getting the bright idea that they can butcher and homogenize BLU for half the time and effort and still get praised for it while limited BLU gets retired along with reborn jobs. I don't want to lose the BLU I know in return for something that was a husk of its former self because their budget won't allow both, doubly so when that same budget screwed it over once already in the expansion where it SHOULD have had a presence because it took place in the damn continent the job originates from.

Even if you and others aren't asking for limited BLU to be done away with or ruined, it's still a valid concern based on how SE has acted so far.

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Another thing that just came to mind, is that Evolved DRG showed the big LB Jump, and it had 90% damage mitigation attached. Diamondback, the reason that BLU can 'cheese' mechanics in BLU-Raiding, is 90% mitigation. So in theory, Evolved would allow every Job to have 'OP' potential to one extent or another, without having to sacrifice that potential in service of 'Balance' quite as much. IE, maybe NIN can have Utsusemi back instead of Shade Shift, and dodge one Physical attack entirely with it? In which case, maybe BLU could end up being the 'support heavy' paradigm of the Caster role, with actions that help allies such as using White Wind in combination with Healers to assist with a Heal Check, a Magick Barrier-esque mitigation effect via something like Mighty Guard, being able to tap into that same 90% damage mitigation that DRG will now have access to via Diamondback (opening up new potential strategies like 'take this Stack Marker solo'), or even 'being the only Caster with an Interrupt' via Flying Sardine.

A rework to Offguard/Libra (which would be skins of each other presumably) to make them give a flat potency increase rather than a % increase, would let an Evolved BLU have a different, more support-y damage profile, while also removing the 2min meta. For example, if Libra were reworked to an effect like 'increases potency of the next 5 attacks from each ally in your party by 150p' (example numbers), it wouldn't matter if your SAM ally uses Enpi or Midare or uncombo'd-Gekko, as they'd all be boosted by the same flat 150p, and that 150p would be based on the BLU's stats and gear, not the ally

And of course, BLU already has a TON of 'character action skins' to pull from, and could learn more via, well, Learning, the thing BLU is known for

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Originally Posted by Tabbs

This is a lovely writeup! There is definitely a toooon of overlap in spells (something which can get to be disappointing with the limited version). Hopefully if the devs consider this suggestion, they see this! With the action glamour system they'd already have so much headway on blue mage haha.

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Thank, it's quite insane to see that like, half of the BLU spellbook fits into one of the five 'attack spell' categories. Cone, Line, ST, Circle and Circle-but-around-you make up way too much of the list IMO. I was asking for 'character action skins' for BLU way back then (as a solution to keep BLU's 'learn spells' gameplay, but give a way to allow it into current content), and I guess I got it for everyone but BLU somehow

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Limited Blue Mage can be the most exciting and engaging job in the entire game, but it doesn’t really matter because I can’t don’t anything as blue mage. Giving it a stable kit to engage with all content shouldn’t have to mean making it a generic reskin of other casters. PVE job kits should be more unique and fun, and Blue Mage could very easily have one, and I think that’s what should be asked of it.

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The fact that it and BST can't go into something like Eureka, a zone that seems like it'd be the perfect place for them to roam around and find an incredibly diverse selection of monsters to learn from/capture, is the greatest tragedy of the Limited Job system. It's content where you already are OP, it's not like BLU having Death spells is going to matter in Eureka, for example, because ANYone can have Death spells via Logos actions, so I don't get why they're locked out

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

That would be almost impossible considering that blue mage changes spells frequently and depends on the content itself. Also most of blue mage spells are instant cast so I don't know what you want more from it...

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A lot of those changes are entirely because of Carnivale's specific solutions for each puzzle. You swap from Choco Meteor to Electrogenesis, not because Electrogenesis is stronger (it's not, it's weaker), but because you need the Lightning element trait of that specific spell. You don't choose between Flamethrower, or The Look, or Kaltstrahl, or Ink Jet for any reason other than 'the Carnivale puzzle demands this specific one, for this specific solution' (Ink Jet's blind, Flame's Fire element). So, Evolved having just 'Cone AOE attack' as a hotbar slot, and choosing which 'skin' you want to use for it (and the same with all the Line AOEs, or Circle AOEs, or ST attack spells like Water Cannon), will have zero gameplay impact. And Reborn would be the current BLU, with all its scuff and quirkiness, still able to do All-BLU challenge raids for the Log/Morbol, still able to do Carnivale

In fact, if Evolved were allowed in more content (IE Eureka, Bozja, Deep Dungeons), those would become an alternate source of 'locations to learn current spells from' for Reborn's kit. IE, instead of needing to do Sastasha Hard to lern Tail Screw, you could also find that kind of enemy in one of the Eureka zones, or in one of the Deep Dungeons, and learn it from there instead (I know you can find that mob in The Peaks, it's an example)

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Giving it a stable kit to engage with all content shouldn’t have to mean making it a generic reskin of other casters. PVE job kits should be more unique and fun, and Blue Mage could very easily have one, and I think that’s what should be asked of it.

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okay would be a healer?
would be a tank?
would be a dps?
how will it be chosen?
why 66% of the blu enjoyers have to be invalidated bc it was decided on role X not Y or Z?

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Originally Posted by virianna

okay would be a healer?
would be a tank?
would be a dps?
how will it be chosen?
why 66% of the blu enjoyers have to be invalidated bc it was decided on role X not Y or Z?

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It's a Caster, it uses Caster gear. In this hypothetical, it'd be a Caster as Evolved mode, and 'Caster, but you can force it to 'act' as a different role with Aetherial Mimicry, and choosing a loadout of spells to support that pseudo-role' in Reborn, just like how it currently works

For the record, I had thought, years ago before the 'Limited Jobs' idea was even mentioned, that if they did a BLU it'd make sense to have it be a Tank. Getting hit to learn spells sounds like something a Tank would be suited to. So any 'invalidation' was done back in 4.56 when it first released

Spitballing blue evolved actions:

White Wind (but on like 2 min cooldown)
Exuviation (no changes)
Diamondback (same mp cost, but at like 90 second cooldown)
Loom (remove the cast time, otherwise the same)
Sonic Boom (at most needs a potency increase if it doesn't have maim and mend)
Water Cannon (potency increase for similar reason as sonic boom)
Nightbloom (Fine as is)
Mortal Flame (Fine and how low potency dots should probably evolve)
Breath of Magic (Maybe should have a 60 second cooldown for its 60 second dot duration)
Boost (Charge-based system)
Off-Guard (Fine as is)
Moon Flute (With the current damage and speed buff values, fine as is with the pacified. But if lower values instead, reduce time spent pacified.)
Aetherial Mimicry (Temporarily draws upon the aether of a nearby party member, or self if only one alive or solo, doing so grants a stack, up to 3, that improves one of its other abilities when that ability is used. When one of those other abilities is used it consumes a stack of aetherial mimicry)
Limit Action = Endless Needles (basically just upgraded thousand needles)

Essentially a support mage like red, but with its own variety of damage and utility. Could be there more? Sure, and it'd probably be part of the morphing buttons.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Blue Mage currently not participate in:

• Duty Roulette for PvE (Trials, Any Dungeons, Normal Raids, Alliance Raids, Mentor)
• PvP (Frontlines, Rival Wings, and Crystalline Conflict)
• Field Operations (Eureka, Bozja, and Occult Crescent)
• Deep Dungeons (Palace, Heaven, Orthos, Pilgrim)
• Main Story Quests (First-time completion and NG+)

What Blue Mage can do and is known for:

• Blue Parties (Dungeons, Trials, Normal Raids of varying difficulties)
• Treasure Dungeons (Soloable)
• Soloing a good number of Dungeons/Trials/Normal Raids
• Fates
• Masked Carnival

Oh and let me not forget to mention the umbrella incident with blue mage where the new weapon for the job couldn't even be obtained from Another Aloalo criterion dungeon. And since beastmaster ate all of blue mage's resources for Dawntrail, we can't even do the criterion dungeons this expansion when we normally would have if it weren't for Beastmaster.

And I am going to be real, its not wanting it to be butchered, its wanting an alternate version of blue mage to engage with the rest of the content. After all, blue mage came out on January 15th 2019. By the time we get evercold that is going to be Eight Full Years. That this is the request to expand its availbaility of content has been a thing since it was originally ARR-only. And now, in 7.56, we are going back to ARR with another limited job with what little content that it will be able to do with other players or solo.

Like no really, think about it. When that new tank and physical ranged come out in 8.0? They are both going to have a larger amount of content they can do because they are not limited.

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But there's 21 (soon to be 23) other jobs you can do all of that first-listed stuff with, why is it absolutely positively necessary to make it doable with BLU and BST when they literally will not play any differently from the other 4 casters and 6 melee that already exist?

And that was also my point, BLU already got screwed over due to budget constraints, and I don't want it getting screwed even more because Square-Enix dumpsters its limited form just to accommodate a standard/evolved one (because they absolutely would). I would be losing a job and content to play while gaining nothing in return, because I don't really find any of the current casters (or their standard content) all that engaging.

It would be a different story if standard BLU came along with limited versions of those other 23 jobs, because then everyone gets expanded content that fits what they want to do with the job, but instead they threw all their time and effort into reborn & evolved which just feels redundant when we COULD have had a PF-compliant BLU & BST along with limited versions of the other 23.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

But there's 21 (soon to be 23) other jobs you can do all of that first-listed stuff with, why is it absolutely positively necessary to make it doable with BLU and BST when they literally will not play any differently from the other 4 casters and 6 melee that already exist?

And that was also my point, BLU already got screwed over due to budget constraints, and I don't want it getting screwed even more because Square-Enix dumpsters its limited form just to accommodate a standard/evolved one (because they absolutely would). I would be losing a job and content to play while gaining nothing in return, because I don't really find any of the current casters (or their standard content) all that engaging.

It would be a different story if standard BLU came along with limited versions of those other 23 jobs, because then everyone gets expanded content that fits what they want to do with the job, but instead they threw all their time and effort into reborn & evolved which just feels redundant when we COULD have had a PF-compliant BLU & BST along with limited versions of the other 23.

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Isn't the point that Evolved will allow them to make the Casters play MORE different from one another?

Isn't the point of OP that Reborn will function as the 'current Limited mode' for those who like that, while allowing for others to enjoy a different way to enjoy BLU via Evolved?

You say you'd be losing a job/content, but I'd disagree with that assessment, because you'd have Reborn BLU as 'the gameplay and systems and content that it has today, right now'

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Isn't the point that Evolved will allow them to make the Casters play MORE different from one another?

Isn't the point of OP that Reborn will function as the 'current Limited mode' for those who like that, while allowing for others to enjoy a different way to enjoy BLU via Evolved?

You say you'd be losing a job/content, but I'd disagree with that assessment, because you'd have Reborn BLU as 'the gameplay and systems and content that it has today, right now'

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That's assuming evolved works the way we assume versus what it actually ends up as, where to me it just sounds like more of the same "simple jobs/difficult fights" design we've had for ages.

There's also the issue of how long they bother to keep reborn jobs around, and I'd rather limited BLU didn't join them on the chopping block and something like the proposed evolved kit Chasingstars posted became the only option.

And it's not even like Square-Enix "promised" a BLU update in Evercold, they only told us "we'll try again" so it already feels like its exclusive content is endangered between a new limited job and them juggling 40+ reborn and evolved jobs.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

That's assuming evolved works the way we assume versus what it actually ends up as, where to me it just sounds like more of the same "simple jobs/difficult fights" design we've had for ages.

There's also the issue of how long they bother to keep reborn jobs around, and I'd rather limited BLU didn't join them on the chopping block and something like the proposed evolved kit Chasingstars posted became the only option.

And it's not even like Square-Enix "promised" a BLU update in Evercold, they only told us "we'll try again" so it already feels like its exclusive content is endangered between a new limited job and them juggling 40+ reborn and evolved jobs.

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Key point, you'd still have the reborn version of blue mage anyway, even if it never got evolved. Just like how dragoon would now have two versions. And that we already know that the reborn vs evolved version share some similarities but they are difference. Like how Bard reborn vs evolved function differently in terms of their songs while coexisting, that a mage's ballad for reborn is not like a mage's ballad for evolved. And the thing is, blue mage would still have the opportunity to grow as its reborn version as its already far different compared to any other job because of spell collection and the assignment of spells equipped.

Evolved is just the hybrid version of pve and pvp versions of jobs as so far shown with some new stuff included. Which as I mentioned before, blue mage never got a pvp version. Like for ninja for example, it will have its reborn, its evolved, and its pvp versions with different potencies and different abilities. Which is three versions. And the pvp one already exists, meaning technically on the high end there would be 65 jobs and their abilities to remember.

EDIT: Honestly all this talk reminds me of the tabletop game Pathfinder 1st edition. Where Summoner was really strong, and so when given its unchained version, it was actually more reasonable compared to its "unchained" version while every other class that got an unchained version had potentially better stuff compared to their "chained" counterparts. So with blue it goes from limited to "non-limited" but being more limited in its spell capacity.

With the announcement of Action Skins, it should be easy enough to design a non-limited blue mage job that has a complete and balanced action set, and still give players the freedom of blue maging how they like by allowing them to set learned spells as action skins of those actions. Same with BST.

The one major thing that would need to be adjusted would be they'd either need to retroactively add proper stats to canes, or set a base level for Evolved Blue Mage as if it were a newer job and ensure all canes from that level onward have stats on them. I really don't get why they made canes have no stats in the first place tbh.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The one major thing that would need to be adjusted would be they'd either need to retroactively add proper stats to canes, or set a base level for Evolved Blue Mage as if it were a newer job and ensure all canes from that level onward have stats on them. I really don't get why they made canes have no stats in the first place tbh.

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Because the canes are basically counting coups. Since the magic comes from a native american inspired culture, certain native groups in the real world have a thing called a counting coup aka a decoerative stick. The canes do about 1 damage on an auto attack because the point of the counting coup was you would touch an enemy with it as a sort of power move over your enemy showing you could, in that moment, have used something more lethal instead. Materia slots are meant to be like notches, and how you got notches was for not getting injured during successful raids, such as how you get the perfect blue title and achievement for not getting injured by azulmagia.

I would love this. I love BLU as it is, but would love to take it into queues from time to time or even be able to main it! Taking it into dungeons and PVP etc would be great. If they could find a way to give us evolved versions of the jobs that could actually queue for content while keeping the Reborn modes the fun and unique puzzle content, this would make me very happy.