The problem with mini-games

We've long wondered why Triple Triad requests seem to be ignored and Yoshi~P keeps saying that he's looking for the perfect mini (or Card) game.

Well, Yoshi's recent interview with RPGsite shows us his concerns about a card/mini game in FFXIV.

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Yoshida: The problem with Card games and things like that is what you really need is - it can't be something you do by yourself, it has to be player battles. If that's the case, do you just play to play? What about rewards?

Chocobos are only for travel - not racing - for now.
Those people want to play for rewards - a lot of people will be like, 'Why should I spend my time playing this mini-game when I can go into this dungeon and get some sweet gear?'

But then, on the other hand, if there's rewards and there's two players - one might lose on purpose so the other can win and get the rewards, which is obviously cheating... so, how do you cover these type of problems?

Conceiving and building a system that covers these kinds of bases is what is taking a long time with creating mini-games - as well as coming up with something perfect.

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He brings up some very good points that need to be addressed by those of us who would like to see Triple Triad or a similar game in FFXIV. The cheating aspect is the most interesting part of this discussion and it explains many of the decisions made about Chocobo racing in FFXI.

Anti-cheating measures such as the inability to manually race your own chocobo, as well as a track minimum of at least 3 high-powered NPC chocobos - meant that there was no real way to fix the races. Sadly, these decisions led to chocobo racing being convoluted and boring. As a result, it was abandoned by the players and ended up as a waste of dev time and resources.

So people, how do we do it? How do we make a card game that solves the following problems to Yoshi~P's satisfaction?

1) How do you keep the game interesting so that people don't abandon it after a the novelty wears off?

2) Create a reward system for a card/mini game that a) cannot be exploited by players, and b) doesn't run afoul of national gambling laws*?

(*FFVIII's system of winning a card from your opponent might violate gambling laws in some countries, so lets consider it off the table for now.)

2) What kind of reward system would this game have that a) cannot be exploited by players and b) doesn't run afoul of national gambling laws*?


Achievements. While exploitable, they don't matter that much.
Only get rewards from NPC oponents
Give rewards that affect the card game only (IE: New cards)
Get rewards from special events that happen once in a while, like official torneys (somewhat exploitable)

etc

NPC rewards work, but then you have a two-tier game.. one vs NPCs and one vs Players... Would pvp play just be show-off then?

Achievements are good, but some players just ignore them or burn through them and move on.

I think Yoshi is looking for something that rewards players for playing with each-other.

I'd think some kind of saloon or casino building where you enter and don't really choose your opponent, just a matchmaking system so if you loose in purpose you don't know who is getting the reward, that way you can play against other players and avoid fixed games. of course you could play with other players outside the casino but then you won't get any rewards, but maybe some achievements.

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Originally Posted by Dannythm

I'd think some kind of saloon or casino building where you enter and don't really choose your opponent, just a matchmaking system so if you loose in purpose you don't know who is getting the reward, that way you can play against other players and avoid fixed games. of course you could play with other players outside the casino but then you won't get any rewards, but maybe some achievements.

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And maybe make it cross server like the dungeon finder~ so that you only have a very small chance to be matched up with a friend.
Also maybe make it like a small tournament? Like you have to beat 3 random opponents to win a prize and if you lose you have to search again for new match.

I like the idea about getting rewards by playing against an NPC only...however the NPC will probably cheat :p

The best thing is to not give gears ( or +% chances to drop cards gears ) by doing these mini games .

There's a game called Vanguard that had an interesting card game system. The simple version is players would play against the guards around the city and after a certain number of wins were reached, all the players in and around the city would be granted some temporary bonus.

Here, it could be something as simple as players running around playing against various NPCs in one of the starting cities (or at the surrounding camps), granting bonuses to everyone in the area for a few hours. Or it could be, each city competes against each other and at the end of the week the results are tallied and the winning city gains a certain prestige and subtle bonus for that week: enhanced anima regen for city members, lower teleportation costs, whatever. Nothing game breaking but some small perk to encourage a healthy competition between the cities.

Then there are tournaments, leaderboards (top 20 get GC seals or some reward at the end of the week), and all sorts of things to entice people to continue to play and improve their deck. I'm not opposed to each creature having a small chance of dropping their card, allowing people to trade, farm, sell cards. Or even DoL and DoH getting a chance to get cards as well as they do their thing.


But honestly, it boils down to how the game is designed before we can worry about how to entice people to continue playing it. It needs to be fast, responsive and something that can be completed in a minute or two. (Ideally, in under a minute.)

Parley is a great example of not how to do it. It was slow, clunky and made little to no sense. And when you were finished playing it, you had nothing to show for your efforts.

You can stop exploitation by penalizing losses, randomizing who you play against, limiting the amount of times you can play against the same person, or introducing diminishing returns for winning against the same person multiple times. See: Heroes of Newerth MMR/TMMR or WOW's arena rank.

Yeah good ideas above this post.

But seriously...they need to keep Parley hahaha

Make a point system there, the winner takes triple point than the loser, make it so you can exchange it for some good items, maybe crafter items so the main things like dungeons, primals, quest, etc reward the battle jobs. That way they can keep good stuff for every class

if it gives crafters items then it would indirectly rewards fighters since craft is used to get fighting gears .
No just give rewards related to the mini game .

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

You can stop exploitation by penalizing losses, randomizing who you play against, limiting the amount of times you can play against the same person, or introducing diminishing returns for winning against the same person multiple times. See: Heroes of Newerth MMR/TMMR or WOW's arena rank.

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I agree with the diminishing on wins against the same person, but penalizing the losses would make the game suck for all those trying to get into it, and ould be a terrible idea.

1) How do you keep the game interesting so that people don't abandon it after a the novelty wears off?

Tournaments and ladders, with prizes being gil, gear, more cards, etc.
Frequent updates, and perhaps integration with other content.

2) Create a reward system for a card/mini game that a) cannot be exploited by players, and b) doesn't run afoul of national gambling laws*?
Constant revision. I believe its Magic: The Gathering which basically "evolves" every expansion, but still gives relevance to old cards, without physically changing their stats, or simply outright banning cards. On the other hand, the Yu-Gi-Oh TCG lacks any form of this, and old cards are simply casted aside as useless. On the other hand, the latter's method provides a constant demand for new cards.

Do countries really have gambling laws that cover online games? I know Korea has laws in place to prevent RMT or something like that, but as far as gambling over a game?

The solution: Make the rewards NOT awesome, and make the minigame fun enough to warrant playing without a reward.

If the minigame NEEDS a reward, then the minigame isn't FUN ENOUGH.

If it NEEDS a reward, don't bother implementing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Punainen

The solution: Make the rewards NOT awesome, and make the minigame fun enough to warrant playing without a reward.

If the minigame NEEDS a reward, then the minigame isn't FUN ENOUGH.

If it NEEDS a reward, don't bother implementing it.

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While I'm inclined to agree, the devs apparently believe that a game without relevant rewards will quickly be abandoned - and thus will be a waste of resources.

Much like FFXI's Choco Racing was.