Job Stones vs. Weapons — Why Do We Still Have Both Locking Our Jobs?

For 8.0, I would like a change to how we switch our jobs. We have job stones. These little gems are literally the whole mechanic that lets us switch from one job to the next. You equip a job stone, you become that job. Simple, clean, makes sense within the lore. Cool.
But then we ALSO have weapons that are locked to specific jobs. So not only do you need the job stone to play a job, you also need the right weapon. Which raises the question — why are we doing both? What is the job stone even for if the weapon is doing the same gatekeeping?
There are two cleaner approaches the devs could go with:
Option A — Lean into the job stones. Let every job equip every weapon. The job stone is what defines how you play, and your preferred weapon is just the one you're most proficient with, giving you the best stats or bonuses. Your PLD can pick up a greatsword, but they won't be as effective as a DRK using it. The job stone drives the identity, the weapon is flavor and optimization.
Option B — Lean into the weapons. Ditch the job stones entirely and go back to a system where your weapon IS your job, like the old days. You pick up a lance, you're a Dragoon. Simple as that.
Either option is more consistent than what we have now. I'm sure there's balance and technical stuff behind the scenes. But from a player experience standpoint, especially for newer players trying to understand the system, it's a confusing overlap that I think is worth a serious conversation.

Deleting DoW/DoM classes and just having it be job-based is something that's been talked about by Yoshida, but it's been sporadic since SB or ShB. Don't expect any changes to streamline the system unless it's determined to be necessary.

Because there are classes which don't have soul crystals.

But also, why does it matter? You equip a weapon, it switches your job and the relevant soul crystal is equipped automatically. Simple as.

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Originally Posted by Underscore

But also, why does it matter? You equip a weapon, it switches your job and the relevant soul crystal is equipped automatically. Simple as.

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Not that I think the system is that much of a problem at the moment, but it doesn't work this way for weapons that can be equipped to a class. Equipping a PLG MNK weapon won't equip the monk soul stone. I think I've only seen this cause an issue for someone once though, when that person was intentionally cheesing ilvls to farm paste recently--they forgot their WAR soul stone and had to go through the dungeon as a MRD because by the time they noticed it was too late to equip it.

only reason I don't want classes gone yet is for the extra hotbar space. Been using those and macros for some useful setups.

Just remove job stones entirely.
You do your job quest at level 30, you just upgrade to your job and that's it.
As for hotbar space? Add extra hotbars. Add 10, 20, 30, 1000 hotbars if you need, all hotbars are stored exclusively client-side and do not burden server with any excessive load at all.

Because SE doesn't have the "development resources" to do quality of life. They don't even have the "development resources" to implement Blue Mage's level 90 iteration despite the design being complete.

They've said they are now revisiting old systems. So we will likely see some improvements going into 8.0. But the sheer amount of QoL issues and their constant talk of lacking resources make me think it won't be anything more than a drop in the ocean of what's needed. Let's hope this is one of the things included.

The best solution here would be for the job stone to automatically equip when you switch weapon, if the weapon is only for a single job (to account for SMN/SCH low level weapons). I think that we can keep classes via skill trees or whatever they are doing with jobs in 8.0, so we could have a Rogue tree and a Ninja tree, etc.

yeah I have nothing against them adding more hotbar sets, even on controller they could do stuff like R1+R3 and R1+L3 to add more pages of 8 sets

that and/or add an option to make the Command Panel have a more sensible layout/input for controllers

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Originally Posted by Underscore

Because there are classes which don't have soul crystals.

But also, why does it matter? You equip a weapon, it switches your job and the relevant soul crystal is equipped automatically. Simple as.

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That's a fair point on classes, and you're right that the automation makes it seamless on the surface. But that's kind of the heart of the issue — if equipping the weapon already handles everything automatically, including slotting the soul crystal, then the soul crystal isn't really doing anything meaningful as a system. It's just along for the ride.

If soul crystals are meant to represent something — our mastery of a job, the lore behind why our character can perform these abilities — then shouldn't they be the thing that actually defines the job, rather than the weapon? And if the weapon is the real job-switcher, why do we need the soul crystal at all beyond flavor?

controller they could do stuff like R1+R3 and R1+L3 to add more pages of 8 sets

No, please don't bind things to R3 L3. They are the stupidest buttons ever. So easy to misclick, and difficult to click when you want them.

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Originally Posted by Allistar

Option A — Lean into the job stones. Let every job equip every weapon. The job stone is what defines how you play, and your preferred weapon is just the one you're most proficient with, giving you the best stats or bonuses. Your PLD can pick up a greatsword, but they won't be as effective as a DRK using it. The job stone drives the identity, the weapon is flavor and optimization.

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Considering the different weapons are made to work with each job, it makes no sense to allow jobs to equip different weapons. A Paladin cannot equip a shield and so couldn't use shield based actions, a Dragoon using a book for their jumps makes no sense etc. Going into lore stuff, a Black Mage Staff is not the same as a WHM staff, they are made differently as the 2 jobs collect and use Aether differently, of which Red Mage uses it differently again and then Scholar and Summoner use it differently...again. This same principle does also apply in real life as well, your 'role' in a war was defined by what weapon you had.

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Originally Posted by Allistar

If soul crystals are meant to represent something — our mastery of a job, the lore behind why our character can perform these abilities — then shouldn't they be the thing that actually defines the job, rather than the weapon? And if the weapon is the real job-switcher, why do we need the soul crystal at all beyond flavor?

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Moving onto Soul Crystals, I do think there is more to it than that. Soul Crystals seems to be some sort of status symbol for the job in question. Take Paladin as an example. Only the knights who rise up to become the Sultana's personal guard, ie. Paladins, are given a job stone. Yes, it gives them memories of past Paladins to help them grow quicker, but it is also a symbol used to show the station of this person and it is a similar thing for most job stones. The Monks of Ala Mhigo where the protectors of the rulers, the Job Stone reflects that. Only the Lancers who go on to become Dragoons, Ishgard's elite Dragon slayer unit, are privileged enough to get a Dragoon Job Stone. Even job stones that don't come with that higher prestige in society, still have a meaning. Red Mages are all but gone, but X'rhun Tia only gives the Job Stone to those that he deems worthy to carry on the legacy of the Red Mage (which does include Alisaie).

I could go on, but hopefully I have shown that job stones seem to be an important part in defining someone as that job and that fact is ingrained in the lore. These are people who have been recognised as skilled enough to use the knowledge contained in those stones but also as a representative of what it means to be that job.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Deleting DoW/DoM classes and just having it be job-based is something that's been talked about by Yoshida, but it's been sporadic since SB or ShB. Don't expect any changes to streamline the system unless it's determined to be necessary.

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*Unless determined to make money.

There we go, I fixed that for you. :P

Mate they can't fix the most simple things because apparently to change one line of code requires all money resources and then blue mage goes out of the window just like that!

Imagine if square created some variety in gear or added talents / glyphs, stats that matter, whatever. That would be cool no? More advanced gameplay. But apparently this isn't only the issue of Square themselves. A lot of players here from this community hate any good change and would rather want to have the most simplified gameplay possible just so their combat score can go 99-100 and they flex around 3rd party website. Incredible right? Many things we complain about today are made in the first place because devs listened to the community. 2 minute meta and jobs being the same.

Now those same people whine how jobs are equal and no great gameplay. You propose a change but they will cry "nooooooo talents, more stats or variety would kill this game even more!!! Leave 2.5gcd or it ruins my rotation that is very boring and 1,2,3!!!!". Saying how that would make the game "Homogenized" but everyone having the same gear best in-slot isn't homogenized? The irony.

Whatever we suggest, it will never go because:

- Square is incompetent and apparently they have no money for anything sort to speak;
- They only do changes if they see that playerbase dwindles down at extreme rate (which is already happening).

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Originally Posted by Allistar

If soul crystals are meant to represent something — our mastery of a job, the lore behind why our character can perform these abilities — then shouldn't they be the thing that actually defines the job, rather than the weapon? And if the weapon is the real job-switcher, why do we need the soul crystal at all beyond flavor?

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Soul crystals do define the job. Play, say, dancer. Then equip a lance. Suddenly you're a lancer, not a dragoon; your dancer soul crystal gives no information to you on any specialized use of a lance, and obviously you don't have your dragoon soul crystal equipped so now you're a lancer. You need a soul crystal to be a dragoon.

I'm not sure why you want the game to represent this by giving you the ability to manually change one item of gear and have the game automagically grab a whole set of other gear to dump onto you (without using the gear manager). When you swap weapons, it actually strips you naked if all the rest of the gear is unequippable by the class/job associated with that weapon, though it will put the soul crystal on if the weapon can't be equipped without one. This is OBVIOUSLY a game mechanic and not a narrative reality--if it were narrative reality, all weapon merchants would have to have privacy stalls so any time a customer picked up a new weapon it would catch all their clothes falling off and preserve their dignity.

As far as class-based greatsword users, or class-based users of gunblades, or users of guns that don't have soul crystals--they exist in the narrative, we as players just don't have access to them.

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Originally Posted by Astronis

Soul crystals do define the job. Play, say, dancer. Then equip a lance. Suddenly you're a lancer, not a dragoon; your dancer soul crystal gives no information to you on any specialized use of a lance, and obviously you don't have your dragoon soul crystal equipped so now you're a lancer. You need a soul crystal to be a dragoon.

I'm not sure why you want the game to represent this by giving you the ability to manually change one item of gear and have the game automagically grab a whole set of other gear to dump onto you (without using the gear manager). When you swap weapons, it actually strips you naked if all the rest of the gear is unequippable by the class/job associated with that weapon, though it will put the soul crystal on if the weapon can't be equipped without one. This is OBVIOUSLY a game mechanic and not a narrative reality--if it were narrative reality, all weapon merchants would have to have privacy stalls so any time a customer picked up a new weapon it would catch all their clothes falling off and preserve their dignity.

As far as class-based greatsword users, or class-based users of gunblades, or users of guns that don't have soul crystals--they exist in the narrative, we as players just don't have access to them.

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With the exception of the arcanist fork, the job could simply replace the base class once you do the job's first quest. You'd still have the soul crystal narratively, and it could be a stamp on your character screen, but having them still be pieces of equipment seems redundant at this point.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

With the exception of the arcanist fork, the job could simply replace the base class once you do the job's first quest. You'd still have the soul crystal narratively, and it could be a stamp on your character screen, but having them still be pieces of equipment seems redundant at this point.

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Yeah, they could do that, though it would remove some ability to do fun things like make Urianger day-drink by making him heal me as a Marauder through level capped content. Which admittedly is pretty niche. (ETA: Also removes the ability for people to do insane things like solo Deep Dungeons on Archers, which is also niche but much more impressive.)

I think there's precisely one CNJ only quest it would affect, but that can be changed too.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

With the exception of the arcanist fork, the job could simply replace the base class once you do the job's first quest. You'd still have the soul crystal narratively, and it could be a stamp on your character screen, but having them still be pieces of equipment seems redundant at this point.

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But then how else am I supposed to show my disdain for what they did to SMN in Shb? Currently, my retainer is keeping my SMN stone warm for me.

I just hope they don't make the class guilds in the starting cities obsolete by removing the classes altogether.

Because the system is built around classes that gain access to more skills adding a job stone to your equipment. We have mastery plaques for crafters that fit into the same slot as stones.

Basically the WoL is just skilled enough to get everything out of a crystal upon equipping it

The game has a lot of good ideas that have fallen to the wayside. The item based tiered class/ job system is just another of those. It's more expedient to just add the job and skip the intervening weapon-based class. The implication is that those hypothetical classes probably exist in the world, but we're bypassing them by jumping straight to the second tier. The scholar/ summoner split also implies that other classes can have multiple second tier jobs... Which is vanishingly unlikely to happen, mostly for balance and devopment reasons, but the idea is intriguing.

Who changes jobs by switching weapons instead of using the gear set list? Do you equip every piece of gear manually when you change jobs?