Please Fix Materia.

You all know it. You do a piece of fun content only to be rewarded with Materia... We've all been there.
But why is everyone prone to feeling this way? I would say because as it is, the Materia system is extremely boring and getting them as a reward just feels like a slap in the face.
The materia system should be overhauled to be a fun gameplay mechanic instead of just feeling like a grind. Allow Materia to be unique and have unique functions!

I was thinking this was gonna be a comment about Materia DC and was going to be ready to show my support.

They can't really do anything with Materia. Like, there's hardly any viable melding configurations, in content where it actually matters. Outside of that content, materia is irrelevant. And yes, you could meld outside of that configuration but, really, does it actually give you any visible self expression? So, what purpose does it actually serve?

If they did change it, so that you could have resistances or extra elemental affinity/immunity, then they would start designing fights around that. But you would just really end up in the same place. It would end up with a set fit out being the one that is used for that encounter, with no variation. And then it would need to be something that could be dropped in and extracted with ease.

i think, at this point, just remove it. What does it really add?

Reworking stats or materia in some capacity to actually make them interesting would mean that "wrong" choices would exist, even if it was only by a few percentage points, and we all know how averse the devs are to that concept.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Reworking stats or materia in some capacity to actually make them interesting would mean that "wrong" choices would exist, even if it was only by a few percentage points, and we all know how averse the devs are to that concept.

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To be fair, players are even more adverse to "wrong" choices and would be quick to kick anyone using a "unique" build instead of the "BIS" one. It's the same reason this community can't be trusted with talent trees (or cross skills when they existed).

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Reworking stats or materia in some capacity to actually make them interesting would mean that "wrong" choices would exist, even if it was only by a few percentage points, and we all know how averse the devs are to that concept.

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My whole idea is to remove them being essentially stat cookies entirely and instead try and implement them in a way more similar to Final Fantasy VII, where Materia does things that are more unique
Keeping the whole stat cookie idea means there will always be a BiS meld loadout

Imagine something like materia granting permanent buffs you could already get elsewhere, or something even more unique

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

My whole idea is to remove them being essentially stat cookies entirely and instead try and implement them in a way more similar to Final Fantasy VII, where Materia does things that are more unique
Keeping the whole stat cookie idea means there will always be a BiS meld loadout

Imagine something like materia granting permanent buffs you could already get elsewhere, or something even more unique

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Still doesn't solve the problem of "players will figure out the most min-max/optimal combos and insist on only using that".
The game used to have more variety in its materia - there were elemental resistance ones as well as others that boosted stats like Vitality. The problem with the latter kind is that everyone is just going to meld as much VIT as possible to max out their HP vs trying other combos, and now we're back to square one again. And elemental resistances aren't really a "thing" in the game any more nor have they been for a long while (outside of extremely specific things like Eureka or BLU masked carnivale) - even if they were, imagine having to extract and re-meld your materia for every single fight depending on what element the boss uses. No thanks.

The main issues are that they have to make it interesting without making it require a massive grind just to prepare for Savage. Preach just made a good video that sums up why gear has to be simple. He has kids and can't do WoW raiding anymore because he doesn't have that sort of time. Nevertheless, they could still make things a little more interesting, without going too far, and hopefully they will - they plan to address jobs and "skill expression" in 8.0 so we will see what they announce in April. It's literally just 1 month and then we should get at least a vague, vague idea of what they are doing.

The other issue is of course there being a wrong choice, and by wrong choice I mean melding Intelligence on a tank or Strength on a healer, which used to be possible!

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Originally Posted by Jaltaer

Still doesn't solve the problem of "players will figure out the most min-max/optimal combos and insist on only using that"

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I don't think that's really an issue. Because nobody really checks. Not really. I don't. I've melded entirely Skill Speed and then cleared a Savage tier in PF. Nobody cares as long as you can do mechanics and get the clear.

The issue is just most materia options in the past have been such junk as melding Piety on a Warrior, or Parry on a tank against magic bosses. Just poor implementation in the past, that's all.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The main issues are that they have to make it interesting without making it require a massive grind just to prepare for Savage. Preach just made a good video that sums up why gear has to be simple. He has kids and can't do WoW raiding anymore because he doesn't have that sort of time. Nevertheless, they could still make things a little more interesting, without going too far, and hopefully they will - they plan to address jobs and "skill expression" in 8.0 so we will see what they announce in April. It's literally just 1 month and then we should get at least a vague, vague idea of what they are doing.

The other issue is of course there being a wrong choice, and by wrong choice I mean melding Intelligence on a tank or Strength on a healer, which used to be possible!
I don't think that's really an issue. Because nobody really checks. Not really. I don't. I've melded entirely Skill Speed and then cleared a Savage tier in PF. Nobody cares as long as you can do mechanics and get the clear.

The issue is just most materia options in the past have been such junk as melding Piety on a Warrior, or Parry on a tank against magic bosses. Just poor implementation in the past, that's all.

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Maybe at this point it'd be best to remove materia altogether or completely unlink it from how your job performs in combat. Is the system really worth keeping?

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

Maybe at this point it'd be best to remove materia altogether or completely unlink it from how your job performs in combat. Is the system really worth keeping?

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I would go for it. You were commenting on crafting in another thread, and grinding for materia was one of my least favorite parts of master crafting. At least ditch overmelding.

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Originally Posted by LanceSummers

Maybe at this point it'd be best to remove materia altogether or completely unlink it from how your job performs in combat. Is the system really worth keeping?

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For the sake of Skill/Spell speed and that's really it, to be honest. People meld a different amount depending on ping or speed preference.

Someone suggested to Yoshi-P about the issue of having to reapply materia upon upgrading gear. I think that should be addressed for sure. We should just have materia slots under our gear slots, and apply the materia to our character rather than the gear itself.

Hopefully addressing materia in some way will be part of their Fan Fest announcements, but we will need to see. Hopefully just a month to get some idea of their plans.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Reworking stats or materia in some capacity to actually make them interesting would mean that "wrong" choices would exist, even if it was only by a few percentage points, and we all know how averse the devs are to that concept.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

To be fair, players are even more adverse to "wrong" choices and would be quick to kick anyone using a "unique" build instead of the "BIS" one. It's the same reason this community can't be trusted with talent trees (or cross skills when they existed).

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IMHO it’s more like, devs are deathly averse to having players complain about anything at all. In their ideal image, we are supposed to consume whatever slop they dish out happily like good obedient, model citizens.

Players—anywhere & everywhere—will almost always find XYZ best/worst setups. It’ll happen in this game, it’ll happen in any game.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Someone suggested to Yoshi-P about the issue of having to reapply materia upon upgrading gear. I think that should be addressed for sure. We should just have materia slots under our gear slots, and apply the materia to our character rather than the gear itself.

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I could envision a system where you have a "materia bar" per job where you fill each one over the game's expansion with materia scattered across the world/different pieces of content. Like, a NIN's Savage Aim is found in one part of the new map, while RDM finds there's somewhere else. PLD gets their Savage Might from one vendor in the world, SCH finds theirs on another. By the end of the expansion each job has one of each materia equipped so there's no stat difference, but HOW you got the materia is where the engagement comes from, doubly so if acquisition specifically called on that job's skills. (That NIN materia I mentioned on the overworld? You got to Hide or Shukuchi your way to it, while the RDM has to smack some object with the correct amount of White and Black without going over to open the door.)

It makes the materia optional overall, since obviously you can beat the MSQ without it, but stumbling upon a piece and having one job be a little stronger making you want to switch up for a bit or providing an edge in normal fights that are more tuned around stat thresholds than pixel-perfect movement where the party with the higher stats gets some leeway from the one that hasn't found much or any materia yet, or going nuts and collecting over a 100 pieces of materia in the expansion because every job (including BLU & BST) has 5+ pieces out there hidden on some vendor, dropped in a piece of content, or found in the overworld (including FATEs that might be job-themed).

If there's concerns about locking a piece of materia behind something that's not popular to do and people feeling like their job was hobbled for it, some materia may have two options of acquisition so no one job feels gated behind undesirable content.

The min-maxers/high-end raiders will chase down whatever it is they need for their main so its not like they have to worry about coming up short for their content, it could even be a hard lock requirement. Don't have all of your materia for your job? You can't queue/join a PF where the materia is mandatory, and since the materia is scattered around day 1 of the expansion, everyone has ample time to find it before even the 1st Savage tier drops.
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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

IMHO it’s more like, devs are deathly averse to having players complain about anything at all. In their ideal image, we are supposed to consume whatever slop they dish out happily like good obedient, model citizens.

Players—anywhere & everywhere—will almost always find XYZ best/worst setups. It’ll happen in this game, it’ll happen in any game.

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I would think minimizing complaints is a good thing rather than having ANOTHER reason for people to be whiny and kicky in PFs. People already look for every excuse in the book to accuse someone of being a "prog liar" without being given another checkbox to conveniently fill out. In that regards it's another case of "players create a problem for themselves the developers have to try and correct" and here we are. People can accuse them of "dumbing down" the game all they want by removing the other types of materia and cross skills, but you have to wonder who was acting like such a bunch of morons that Square-Enix felt forced to make things "idiot-proof".

Incidentally, the system I just proposed fixes some of that by literally denying anyone from waltzing into high-end content without having acquired mandatory materia for the job they want to play. Hardcores still get those funny little gates they like so much, but now its something the game decides for them because players have repeatedly proven incapable of properly (and politely) regulating themselves.

I posted an idea a long time ago for trying to make Materia more interesting. Basically, by introducing a new type of materia, that can only be melded to the weapon (or soul crystal) so it's specific to each Job. Each of this new kind of Materia would have a special effect on one of your actions as that Job: For example, as WHM:

- Liturgy of the Bell now has only 3 stacks, but has no 'early detonation penalty' and a 90s CD (goes from 1000-2000p, to a guaranteed 1200p with half the CD)
- Plenary Indulgence now applies its 'bonus heal' effect as a Barrier, and said effect is 50% stronger (makes it a 300p Barrier effect)
- Divine Benison now leaves Regen on the target for 9s when it expires or breaks from damage

The key point is that none of the hypothetical bonus effects would grant damage, they'd all be utility-focused. No one effect would be 'BIS', because each of them (ideally) comes in useful at different parts of the same fight. For these example effects, take TOP. Each of the effects would be 'best' in a different phase of the fight.

Despite this, the overwhelming number of responses to the thread were 'pointless change, we would just use the one that gives the most damage'. The playerbase is too damage-focused to think about any change through any other lens, it's all just 'does this impact damage, and if so how can we get the most damage out of it'. So, I don't think SE could really do anything to change Materia as a system, even if they wanted to. The players would just try to minmax the hell out of it, even if it were entirely decoupled from damage

Materia used to be much more complex and each job had different meld requirements and this was removed slowly to address people needing multiple caster and tank sets because warrior and black mage wanted different stats than their ilk. Materia as a reward sucks but replacing it as a reward would be preferable to making materia an inventory nightmare again.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

The key point is that none of the hypothetical bonus effects would grant damage, they'd all be utility-focused. No one effect would be 'BIS', because each of them (ideally) comes in useful at different parts of the same fight. For these example effects, take TOP. Each of the effects would be 'best' in a different phase of the fight.

Despite this, the overwhelming number of responses to the thread were 'pointless change, we would just use the one that gives the most damage'. The playerbase is too damage-focused to think about any change through any other lens, it's all just 'does this impact damage, and if so how can we get the most damage out of it'. So, I don't think SE could really do anything to change Materia as a system, even if they wanted to. The players would just try to minmax the hell out of it, even if it were entirely decoupled from damage

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Same thing happens in PVP, where you rarely ever see anyone using the utility skills over the damage ones, and it's probably the same with Field Operations/Deep Dungeons/V&C Dungeons.

While part of that could be blamed on Square-Enix turning all fights into "race against the clock before the boss one-shots you" so damage takes priority, the playerbase doesn't really do anything to push against "only damage matters" with the way some of them let content live and die by parser worship.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Reworking stats or materia in some capacity to actually make them interesting would mean that "wrong" choices would exist, even if it was only by a few percentage points, and we all know how averse the devs are to that concept.

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This is already the case though isn't it? Having no materia melded at all is the wrong choice currently, but I don't see many complaints about this being possible.