PF is not just bad at times, it's unfair (rant)

Ok I'm here for one more post. I made one earlier to spark discussion about trusts in savage, but take it from my experience again (mind you I've been playing MMO and raiding them since WotLK in WoW, so these kinds of experiences arent new) but this experience tonight is just another level worse than I've ever experienced ffxiv before. Tonight, after spending a great deal of my day studying phase 2 m12 so much that I actually feel like i only need to see each mechanic a few times to get through it clean (yes, I am that kind of guy lol) i went in for my actual prog point, which was replication 2. I spent 7 hours (most of the time was spent filling, understandably) in m12 and never made it to phase two. My last group, as you may be able to see, was dying repeatedly at the first raidwide after pulling the boss. Kerachole was falling off before the raidwide hit. Sometimes, we would be missing feint or addle, and besides just some people either making mistakes or not being experienced enough in phase one to know not to run into another alpha running their tether out on the outside of the coil while the boss is spinning, tonight was a complete waste of time, regardless of the amount of patience and understanding i put in to each group (albeit somewhat unreciprocated, judging by the description reading "replication 2 prog.")

Now, I may be speaking from a place that shows some inexperience on my own. I've never attempted an ultimate, because I just don't have the time or the desire with my choppy irl and work schedules. I also have other things in mind to where ultimates won't satisfy me, as we all know gaming itself is a choice. (This is also why I'm trying to clear the tier early, so I can free up my irl time and choose when to play and minimize my prog time) so I don't really know if this is normal for ultimate raider's experiences to have days or nights like this, but for my savage experience, this is insane. I put myself up to a certain discipline to never prog lie and make sure that I'm ready to raid when i get in while also expecting to make mistakes once in a while, but tonight was off the charts bad, and I'm hoping it gets better if I just keep throwing myself at the wall and rolling the dice.

I was in a group for three or four hours for rep 2 prog (that we never saw, obviously) where in the end, the leader got sleepy and said they were done, and two others in there admitted that they'd never even cleared phase one at all. This is prog lying and not okay. I have a friend who has cleared already who I raided with last tier, and he is telling me he prog lied to get ahead and is suggesting that I do the same. I refuse and have always refused, even to my own detriment.

At the end of the day, I don't know how else to sum this up except to say that today I have experienced such a day in pf that if I had any foreknowledge that it would have turned out this way, I could have spent my time more wisely and probably postponed studying the fight in the place of something else irl. Prog liars, inexperienced people, repeated mistakes, gaps in knowledge of mechanics, basic mitigations not being covered, basic understanding of your job and its rotation, forgetting the somewhat NA - "universal" toxic friends raidplan spots, some mechanic execution, and just overall kind of mistakes that made me look more and more like a fool the more I tried to tell myself that everyone just needed a little bit of patience and we would get ahead. Hah, I had spent 7 hours this evening sitting in this chair. You'd think by now I would have progged rep 2. Nope

I'm not sure this post will have a constructive point, but something's got to give with the experience that party finder tends to yield more regularly than desired.

It's unfortunately just a reality of the current game. I'm honestly not sure if I just never noticed it as much before or if it's really happening but it feels like prog liars have massively increased ever since Endwalker.
Sure, give them a few pulls to see if they just need to warm up but if you're raiding in PF you need to prioritise your own time and your own progress at some point. Leave and find a new party as soon as you think they have never been at the advertised mechanic, they lied to you, you owe them nothing.

Why did you remain in the group for three or four hours, instead of 30 minutes? One food; no prog point? Cya.

Even better, tell the party lead to remove the people who are screwing up, which is what the norm SHOULD be, instead of everyone disbanding. If they are the leader, you can just say "hey, I'm gonna make another party, if anyone's interested" and just dip out and make one. The competent people will join you.

If I am throwing because of a bad day, I am going to take myself out of the party. Sadly, the trash often need to be put into a garbage bag and taken out, since they don't take themselves out.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It's unfortunately just a reality of the current game. I'm honestly not sure if I just never noticed it as much before or if it's really happening but it feels like prog liars have massively increased ever since Endwalker.
Sure, give them a few pulls to see if they just need to warm up but if you're raiding in PF you need to prioritise your own time and your own progress at some point. Leave and find a new party as soon as you think they have never been at the advertised mechanic, they lied to you, you owe them nothing.

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No idea as well, but when I progged in PF it's been hell most of the time and the prog time compared to a static was just a lot higher as a result. I only PFed my first savage tier in Sigmascape (with the exception of P10S in EW, also in PF, that was also an absolute misery). I do remember Kefka being the same kind of disaster that's being described here, with a lot of p2 parties not even reaching the checkpoint at all and failing before. Why? Prog lying? Inconsistent players? No idea, and this was on NA too btw - but I doubt that EU is much different.

People talk a lot more about prog lying because of CAR or other extremes with actual body checks like Golbez ex, and probably also because of tomestone. Maybe all of this shed the light on this phenomenon. Or maybe it's also increased, hard to tell as far as I'm concerned.

Fact of the matter remains, if you want to have a smooth, solid prog experience in PF, you need to ride the wave of hardcore raiders, which means clearing the first two fights under two days after release, then reaching at least the fourth at the end of first week. After that you'll still need not to slack on the fourth because of... exactly what's described in the OP.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

i only need to see each mechanic a few times to get through it clean (yes, I am that kind of guy lol)

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It is really bad, yes. I mean, here is my M9S experience, wiping in "enrage" parties for 10 hours a day, for about 5-6 days:

Deaths and damage downs to Steamroller, a mechanic people should have mastered in "fresh prog" parties.

Deaths and damage downs to Aetherletting, probably the slowest Savage cast in the entire game that lasts like 30 seconds or something. You even have 5-10 seconds to place your little marker. You can't possibly mess it up. I required no practice at it. Yet, it was extremely common to see people mess it up in "enrage" parties...

Hell In a Cell mistakes. Now, maybe I'm bias as a tank and maybe this is harder for other roles, but I don't think so? It required zero prog and zero practice for me to do it flawlessly. I don't think I have ever messed it up as MT or OT. As MT, my tower is N or NE, but it would be very easy for me as a healer to consistently go to the one next to the tank tower, or to go to the ones CCW as a DPS.

I identify my tank spread spot instantly, and it would be easy for me to go CW of that as a healer or CCW of it as a DPS.

Now, people messing up bat following I can understand. It is just a genuinely annoying mech where you can do the proper movement and get clipped or caught by ping. That should have been the prog point in these enrage parties, because it's the damage downs from it that are meant to make you wipe to enrage. But it rarely was even the prog point of all 7 people that joined.

This was in the NA region but I went to clear it on my EU alt twice so far, and same experience in the EU region. Enrage parties ain't enrage parties. I mean, I've cleared it twice so it wasn't me preventing the clear.

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At the end of the day, I don't know how else to sum this up except to say that today I have experienced such a day in pf that if I had any foreknowledge that it would have turned out this way, I could have spent my time more wisely

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I also need to mention that this isn't new. Back in Shadowbringers, I was ready to clear E1S in 2 pulls but it took me 6 weeks (had to sub in a static to do it and we 1shot it) because baiting anything was too hard for people. I got almost to enrage in my first time in E2S, then proteans and gazes were too hard for any other parties so after 4 weeks I went healer to carry people and cleared 2nd party I joined. Those two raids filtered everyone because E3S only took me a few parties and I cleared E4S after 1 week of prog. Amazing how much faster the last two were despite being way harder mechanically.

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My last group, as you may be able to see, was dying repeatedly at the first raidwide after pulling the boss. Kerachole was falling off before the raidwide hit. Sometimes, we would be missing feint or addle

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I had that in some (not that many) M9S parties. It wasn't even necessarily that there was no mit. Just my and others' mit wasn't enough for some reason. Unfortunately, because PF isn't as coordinated as a static, sometimes the mit just won't be coordinated well and they'll all frontload it and then have nothing for the next cast. Sometimes it takes a pull to see how they are using their mit so that you can alternate it, or see if they are trying to alternate for you instead.

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I put myself up to a certain discipline to never prog lie and make sure that I'm ready to raid when i get in while also expecting to make mistakes once in a while

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I'm very much the same. I actually throw myself at parties prior to my own prog point just to make sure, even though I really don't need to, to make sure my practice is extremely robust up to prog point. Because I don't want to be the one wasting others' time, even though they waste my time in exchange anyways.

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I'm hoping it gets better if I just keep throwing myself at the wall and rolling the dice.

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Gear will help. In 1 week and a bit anyone that has been doing weekly M12 since 7.4 release will be able to get the tome weapon (if they didn't get a lucky drop in Savage). And they'll have more tome gear, so it will just get easier to beat the DPS checks. That said, you will of course find many players struggle even with these advantages in the final floors, so you'll need to also have a party that is at least good enough to benefit from this extra gear.

You'd think with the constant failures and frustrations that people would question the hardcore system that Square-Enix created and the one the community insists on engaging with, but no, people would rather the system remain exactly as it is while holding out for players that may simply not exist on their data center, or be online during that day of the week, or that time of the day.

At some point it has to dawn on people that the pool you have to choose from his shrinking, not growing, even on Aether. Not that you're forced to deal with "prog liars" if you don't want to, but I have to wonder who you're hoping will show up in their stead, and how long you're willing to wait for these 7 other unicorns to appear if you're going to keep banking on randoms in a system that gives them equal right to participate in fights where only perfection is allowed.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

...I have to wonder who you're hoping will show up in their stead, and how long you're willing to wait for these 7 other unicorns to appear if you're going to keep banking on randoms in a system that gives them equal right to participate in fights where only perfection is allowed.

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This is basically the same phenomena as in WoW. They have some sort of score that rates your experiences in Mythic+, and there are myriads of complaints like "that guy had a score over 9000 but played like they were rubbing their *** over the keyboard".
But still people expect an automated system to only come up with players that belong to "The Best of the best of the best, sir! With honors!" I will never understand that mindset. Either you make friends of your skill level; or you live the pug life, and then you deal with the pug life - in all of its consequences.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

You'd think with the constant failures and frustrations that people would question the hardcore system that Square-Enix created and the one the community insists on engaging with, but no, people would rather the system remain exactly as it is while holding out for players that may simply not exist on their data center, or be online during that day of the week, or that time of the day.

At some point it has to dawn on people that the pool you have to choose from his shrinking, not growing, even on Aether. Not that you're forced to deal with "prog liars" if you don't want to, but I have to wonder who you're hoping will show up in their stead, and how long you're willing to wait for these 7 other unicorns to appear if you're going to keep banking on randoms in a system that gives them equal right to participate in fights where only perfection is allowed.

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It's discipline and respect for others. It's like when you apply for and/or get a job. The difference between earning a promotion and getting better or just being invited in to operate equipment that can kill everyone and yourself.

Yea progression sucks. I started with a casual guild and learned how to play. I join fresh learning parties, and sometimes used to join the ones with voice chat in order to learn. The fact of the matter is that you owe it to yourself and others to value yourself and their time enough to learn how to advance before you advance. It takes longer, sure, but its a sacrifice that muat happen. Players like myself and many ive seen today have exercised way more than enough patience with underperformers. The underperformers have just become impossible to raid (pf) with, as even they are keeping the other underperformers from.reachig their desired points and stripping away their ability to even ask questions, because everyone knows asking earlier prog questions in a later prog group doesnt belong there. Integrity is necessary for (prog)ress

The bags under my eyes this morning tell a story

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

It's discipline and respect for others. It's like when you apply for and/or get a job. The difference between earning a promotion and getting better or just being invited in to operate equipment that can kill everyone and yourself.

Yea progression sucks. I started with a casual guild and learned how to play. I join fresh learning parties, and sometimes used to join the ones with voice chat in order to learn. The fact of the matter is that you owe it to yourself and others to value yourself and their time enough to learn how to advance before you advance. It takes longer, sure, but its a sacrifice that muat happen. Players like myself and many ive seen today have exercised way more than enough patience with underperformers. The underperformers have just become impossible to raid (pf) with, as even they are keeping the other underperformers from.reachig their desired points and stripping away their ability to even ask questions, because everyone knows asking earlier prog questions in a later prog group doesnt belong there. Integrity is necessary for (prog)ress

The bags under my eyes this morning tell a story

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I would think any part of a game that can be compared to a job (especially a lethal one) has fundamentally failed as a game, but that's just me I guess.

My point is that its a type of content that by its very nature draws in a very finite amount of players, and due to the demands of said content, not all of those attempting it are going to actually be good at it. And while you and others are certainly free to kick and blacklist those dragging you down in order to better curate who you do and don't get stuck playing with (and people not pulling their weight aren't entitled to a free ride), I question how sustainable this process is when the number of people you have to pick from keeps going down, not up, as the months roll by and the content keeps getting harder and more exhausting (thus removing even those who were good at the content, but refuse to partake).

Or how if all it takes is a couple of bad pulls for the "runt of the run" to be identified and kick and blacklists to be administered, the same people doing this can't turn around and complain when their later PFs take longer and longer to fill because they're quite literally draining their own pool of what few people care to attempt it at all, to say nothing of how this might impact their PFs for any other kind of non-hardcore content because the blacklist is universal, it doesn't just exclude people from Savage.

You're not obligated to carry anyone of course, but I do question what becomes of hardcore content when there's no longer enough people willing to run it, and of those willing, the cross-barring of blacklisting makes it harder for them to actually play together. (And that's before we even account those who stop running because they got done in the first couple of weeks, further removing the most competent from the pool.)

The reality is, you just have to teach them how to reprisal/feint/addle. This is a team game, and when you sign up for PF M12S, you need to have patience. Yeah, it does suck when your party is dying to the first raidwide constantly at the very start of the pull, but everyone goes through that. Your standards are way too high to expect people who are on the final floor of the savage tier to mitigate, only world first raiders do that.

And sure, prog liars might join your group, but have you considered it will take you longer to fill the PF if you exclude them? You have two options: you either deal with the prog liar, and you get 30 minutes of p1 prog after waiting in PF for hours .. or you wait in PF for these magical unicorns that are so good at the game that they are able to mitigate, who may never show up. I personally would take the former, because even if I didn't get any prog myself, I at least helped the prog liar to get further. So overall, the happiness in PF increases.

Hardcore content will not survive if you stay on this trajectory, because as we all know, people will quit in droves if you exclude the prog liars, especially after a couple of dozen of bad pulls.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

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Well, just like how it took 2 hours to fill one group (and they lied) id rather play with a small pool.of people who dont lie than a large pool.of people that do. You dont see week 1 clearing streamers bringing random unvetted pugs in on their world race, so why would i want liars in my.specific phase 2 prog groups? Ive already suffered here, so your argument is apples to oranges with an entirely different subject focus

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Hardcore content will not survive if you stay on this trajectory, because as we all know, people will quit in droves if you exclude the prog liars, especially after a couple of dozen of bad pulls.

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And no, there is too much evidence to the contrary

FFXIV seems to be grinding failure opportunities more and more frequently to artificially lengthen play time turning fun into misery. Patch 7.4 has felt like a maximization of failure opportunities everywhere I look. First I went to OC again because 8 new accessories were released and I thought maybe if I have them I would be motivated enough to try to wade through the excessive preplanning and Discord stuff that FT requires. After about 150 CEs, 300 Fates, and about 500 chests...I never saw a single drop. I have done many daily Frontlines, and like the past year or so it still feels like the chances of being on the winning team are tiny compared to what I experienced in early EW. I only recall winning three times in patch 7.4, and yep my achievement for the new map is still at 1 win. Ok I'll go fishing for the new fish...oh some of them have a downtime of weeks and one of them has a downtime of months and the weather might be while I am unable to play. I guess Purse of Riches will have to wait until spring or summer. Ok maybe I'll go try this new Raid series. I gave up at M6S last time because it took over a hundred pulls to even find a single group in PF who could do the add phase. Ok M9S went fine, but after almost 20 hours of M10S, studying videos over and over, looking at spreadsheets mapping the timelines of when I might be able to cleave if tanks can position the bosses right, studying the parses of high ranking players, and having won 3 pieces of gear from M9S...it's still not enough. The failure epidemic is so steeping Savage right now that I have seen many PF descriptions that are technically against the ToS: enrage% this, checking that, passport please, and so on. I easily cleared the Spire of Trial DPS checks without food or pots but I clearly still cannot do enough damage in the actual Raid. As far as I'm concerned there is a malicious reason why SE doesn't want you to know whether you did enough personal damage after reaching enrages.

Sure I can go do the Normal Raids or the single Extreme with a 95-100% success rate, but I also don't want to win all the time either.

All the endgame content FFXIV releases now is either win nearly all the time or fail nearly all the time with nothing reasonable in the middle. I've played and completed the most difficult challenges in all kinds of games for decades. The current system is extremely unhealthy and becoming predatory in nature. I would only recommend FFXIV to players who are going to stick to playing older content. The tuning and lack of clear skill level requirements for endgame content feels like AI slop treating players like numbers rather than those who are meant to be entertained.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

And no, there is too much evidence to the contrary

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Well, my evidence is Aidorouge. They seem to know what they're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Well, my evidence is Aidorouge. They seem to know what they're talking about.

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Hahah. I just got to thinking about the example of the prog liar being taught, and the overall happiness increasing. Nay, the rest of us had our hapiness decrease, so the average went down. Maybe its just me being tired but i laughed out loud thinking about the other 7 people being imagined as inconsequential drones instead of humans in that example. Ugh. I need to get offline for a bit lol

Games fault.
Because game can fix it.
Add counters/flags to each instance for multiple key prog points. Thousand ways to 'present' that. Pick one. You could even add more inventoty tokens to the game if your feeling maliciously lazy about the dev work.
But it has to be done
When you pass a prog point your counter go up.
PF leaders can pick two prog points and say, I want X clears off the first and Y clears off the second.
Instance dev picks 5 prog points to label in the game. (If five is not enough it's a bad game design, or your need to "play other games" because your too fussy)

I dont want to hear technical excuses because they can only be poor. The only excuse is "we made mistakes in the past design and we are not stepping outside them"
The storage is still cheap.
The compute is cheap.
The data transfer is cheap if you stick to what's needed query transactions. If your transferring a whole characters entire history have state to enter an instance that's just dumb.
Dont tell me it's impossible to pull 5 bytes (if that) over http on demand from a new database, even if that database is the other side of the world.
You could probably even do it NoSQL if your feeling lazy.
You could certainly do it SQL.

Its not people that are broken. People are people, that's the bit you have to "work with"

Actually thinking on it, NoSQL. Partition by character ID, now you just throw new named documents in. Again if your storing the whole of a character or even the whole of their history in one document, that's just dumb.

Actually the truth is that, certainly pre AI inflation, with NoSQL you could have had a prog counter for every mechanic and it would have cost little extra.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

Well, just like how it took 2 hours to fill one group (and they lied) id rather play with a small pool.of people who dont lie than a large pool.of people that do. You dont see week 1 clearing streamers bringing random unvetted pugs in on their world race, so why would i want liars in my.specific phase 2 prog groups? Ive already suffered here, so your argument is apples to oranges with an entirely different subject focus

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Yes, but, how long until that small pool fills up versus drying up? And from what I've gathered world racers don't play with pugs at all, they only play with their respective statics, so they're not even drawing from the same pool you are.

Maybe I just don't understand the hardcore mentality of willfully putting one's self through content that takes hours to clear, and most of that is spent just waiting for enough people to show up to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Well, my evidence is Aidorouge. They seem to know what they're talking about.

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Ha, I'd hardly consider myself an expert authority on hardcore content given I don't do a single bit of it, and even admitted that people shouldn't have to be forced to play with other people that are dragging them down if they're genuinely THAT bad at said hardcore content.

But that's the thing, I don't do hardcore content precisely I wouldn't be good at it, and wouldn't want to be making someone else's day miserable or giving them a reason to be hostile. Getting blacklisted because I flubbed a Savage fight isn't worth diminishing my overall player pool across other content, and I doubt I'm the only one who avoids hardcore content for the same reason.

I neither add or take away from the pool, but I CAN see the water line getting lower for others every time there's another topic about people's frustrations with PF groups. Ironically, such topics probably just help to remind some people why they stay out of the content. Not because OP is a bad person or anything of course, but because the content comes off sounding bad, and otherwise good people get stuck dealing with it.

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

Ok I'm here for one more post.

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Your problem is reduced to the fact that you play by your rigid standards and do not adapt to your environment. You know what happens to animals in nature when they can't adapt? They go extinct.

Yes, life isn't fair. What else is new?

Anyways, I've had some fun times pugging and while there are a few really bad groups I've joined I have to say I've had a lot of good groups too and the experience has been decent. I spend a lot of time complaining about this game but collaborating with people in pugs to bring down a difficult boss isn't one the complaints I have about it.

Read the room, identify the good raiders, re-join their groups, add them to your friends list, socialize. We cleared M11S last night and half the people in my group were familiar to me and we simply kept rejoining each other. It's not the fight or the system, its the people you need to watch for.

Some of my other pug brothers weren't there for the clear though, and I'll wish them luck. This is war. Not everyone will make it. Anyways I'm sure 12S will be a prog disaster too, and just like every other floor before I will adapt and overcome.

My goal is to clear, not to die a martyr upholding rigid standards in a video game where half the people don't give a lick and the other half are drunk.

OP, you're not wrong, but because this game has tons of leeches who don't want to pull their weight, your best bet is to get a static. Like others have mentioned, there is a point in the weeks right after release where if you haven't cleared the first two fights, you will be hardstuck for weeks until the bad actors have gotten blacklisted from enough party leaders so that any decent party has a chance of forming. The insistence of the community on being nice to those who waste their time doesn't help,either. Form a static or make your own PF and kick progliars through whatever criteria you determine alright to kick them.

Also, if I'm confident in executing mechanics based on guides alone, I'll just tell the party lead my prog point and and let them decide. More often than not, they let me, and if they don't, that's fine, too. lol

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Originally Posted by b3nzyme

Well, just like how it took 2 hours to fill one group (and they lied) id rather play with a small pool.of people who dont lie than a large pool.of people that do. You dont see week 1 clearing streamers bringing random unvetted pugs in on their world race, so why would i want liars in my.specific phase 2 prog groups? Ive already suffered here, so your argument is apples to oranges with an entirely different subject focus

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Sounds to me like what you want is a static at this point.

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Well, my evidence is Aidorouge. They seem to know what they're talking about.

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fwiw: aidorouge has been trapped in stb for years and still there in 2026, but that doesn't stop him from posting about content he has not done and will never do because of the 1st part because he has mentioned he hated dying for the first time during dungeons so he quit the MSQ...

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Originally Posted by Miradelle

Well, my evidence is Aidorouge. They seem to know what they're talking about.

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yes they do

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Originally Posted by CCheshire

fwiw: aidorouge has been trapped in stb for years and still there in 2026, but that doesn't stop him from posting about content he has not done and will never do because of the 1st part because he has mentioned he hated dying for the first time during dungeons so he quit the MSQ...

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I've finished Shadowbringers actually, but it only further rubbed in that the game keeps getting harder but I'm not getting better so I'm not really sure what to make of Endwalker and beyond. But even if I speedran all the way through Dawntrail tomorrow, what difference would it make? It's not like my opinion on the side content I can't do is going to miraculously change. I'm not going to suddenly be Savage ready because I survived Wuk Lamat, lol.

And it wasn't dying in dungeons that was demoralizing, it was dying in MSQ solo duties, the supposedly "most brain dead" content of all where I was getting stuck for a while every time the game decided I needed to play as some other NPC, especially any where I needed to be the healer because its not a role I normally do. Death Unto Dawn was legitimately obnoxious to complete.

Anyway, I already know I'd be part of the players that would be holding people back if I ever attempted to do hardcore content, and even said as much that people shouldn't be forced to deal with such players, so if kicking and blacklisting is the only option then I guess that's how it is (or in my case I don't show up to begin with). I just question how well the PF system works when there's fewer and fewer capable people doing the content, or that if trying to pug it seems like an awful idea, the OP would be better off finding a static.

In Heavensward it was quite easy to filter out the majority of bad actors, but then again that was pre-cross world server/world visit stuff existing. Only thing I hated was that the PFs could take hours to fill.
Statics are sort of the only solution to people overexaggerating their progression points, but not everyone can fit into those schedules unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I've finished Shadowbringers actually, but it only further rubbed in that the game keeps getting harder but I'm not getting better so I'm not really sure what to make of Endwalker and beyond. But even if I speedran all the way through Dawntrail tomorrow, what difference would it make? It's not like my opinion on the side content I can't do is going to miraculously change. I'm not going to suddenly be Savage ready because I survived Wuk Lamat, lol.

And it wasn't dying in dungeons that was demoralizing, it was dying in MSQ solo duties, the supposedly "most brain dead" content of all where I was getting stuck for a while every time the game decided I needed to play as some other NPC, especially any where I needed to be the healer because its not a role I normally do. Death Unto Dawn was legitimately obnoxious to complete.

Anyway, I already know I'd be part of the players that would be holding people back if I ever attempted to do hardcore content, and even said as much that people shouldn't be forced to deal with such players, so if kicking and blacklisting is the only option then I guess that's how it is (or in my case I don't show up to begin with). I just question how well the PF system works when there's fewer and fewer capable people doing the content, or that if trying to pug it seems like an awful idea, the OP would be better off finding a static.

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For what it’s worth, I find Endwalker duties mostly easier than Shadowbringers. The dev team got very good at their visual language of telegraphs in boss fights; it’s usually fairly clear what you’re expected to do, and you have enough time to do it. There are a couple solo duties that can take some work, but if you’re having fun in the rest of the game you can always dial down the difficulty to get through them.

As for party finder … I hear nothing but horror stories about it. My only actual experience with it has been with people using it to do normal difficulty duties for the first time on Dynamis, but I can well imagine it’s no fun with a group of cranky elite players trying to clear a high end duty. (I’ve certainly had enough experience with badly behaved elite players in normal duties that I don’t want to spend time in a party full of them.) From all I’ve heard, statics are the most successful way to clear high end duties, and they also seem like a good way to find a group you’re okay spending time with.

I always saw PF as taking more variance in exchange for more flexibility compared to a static. With a static, you curate the players you play with and can build familiarity in how they move, but it comes with a commitment to rigid hours. With PF, you can wait for 30min for a party to fill, only for that party to disband after 10min. Or you can find a group that does amazing.

I do think part of the issue is how demanding of other some people are in PF. I recall when I PFd the first arcadion week 1, the party I finally cleared M4S with was a party that stuck through people having deaths at mechanics way before the prog point. It was a sunrise into enrage party and people were dying in phase 1, but it was mostly due to being tired, distracted or just having progged through that mech so fast they weren't as familiar with all the permutation. I had joined PLENTY of parties before that, but these parties kicked people out after 2 mistakes or disbanded after a few failed pulls. But that last party, we saw sunrise after 2-3 pulls, and then we stuck together through a DDoS to finally clear the fight.

Like, I am currently in a static. I cleared M9S day 1, recleared it in 2 pulls this week. This weekend, I joined a friend who was trying to get a clear. And for some reason that night, I really struggled to read Vamp Stamp. I died to the first Vamp Stamp during 2 pulls. Next thing I know, I got kicked out of the party. I joined another one, did Vamp Stamp cleanly all 3 times and we got the clear. There's a reason why my friends jokes about "legend btw" when we screw up. Just because we're experienced players doesn't mean we're flawless.

PF is just impatient. And I get it. If you've been stuck on a fight for weeks, you might start getting impatient and trigger happy about removing underperformers. But most of my successful clear in PF came when I stuck through a party, even if people failed at mechanics "they shouldn't be failing at". I prefer to believe that the majority of people that join PFs genuinely believe they can meet that prog point. And that errors aren't always born from "Prog liars" but just the fact that we can't always play flawlessly.

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Originally Posted by Sarantserel

I always saw PF as taking more variance in exchange for more flexibility compared to a static.

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They both have pros and cons. Unfortunately, the cons are really bad for most people, in my opinion. For every amazing solid static, there are lots of extremely "casual" statics that will take it in turns to not show up because "real life comes first" then wipe constantly because they are exhausted from their job or still don't understand the game well. And that's before even getting into how many of them will eventually fall apart due to drama or the time between patches. I don't need to get into how PF is.

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I do think part of the issue is how demanding of other some people are in PF.

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I endured 10 hours a day in enrage parties for 5 or so days. I didn't demand anything and was patient for, what, 50 hours? There is nothing demanding about expecting people at enrage prog to, well, be able to get to enrage rather than repeatedly dying to the easiest mechanics in the fight like Aetherletting.

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people were dying in phase 1, but it was mostly due to being tired

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That's understandable and when you join a party that is at bedtime for most people of that region, you generally expect they'll get sleepy fairly quick. If you join late enough though, you're no longer running into sleepy players, but people who actually have moved their sleep schedule to the day or who are in another region such as OCE.

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just having progged through that mech so fast they weren't as familiar with all the permutation

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That's exactly the problem though. I don't join prog parties until I'm absolutely certain I have repeated the earlier mechanics a lot and done them consistently every time. For example, I got to Double Alley-oop in M10S in the first party and was pretty consistent, but I have continued to join Fresh Prog parties to improve my muscle memory for the baited tankbuster, placing fire lines, and improving how I position the boss and how consistently I do it. How many other players would do that? Not very many, to be honest with you. I want to be absolutely solid and extremely consistent with solid muscle memory before I progress.

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I had joined PLENTY of parties before that, but these parties kicked people out after 2 mistakes or disbanded after a few failed pulls.

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I do agree with you that mistakes happen and that disbanding after a few failed pulls isn't the right way. In my experience (going back through each expansion to Heavensward), being patient can pay off and see the clear you couldn't get in other parties. For example, there were parties in M9S that died to initial mechanics, then SS2, then HiaC, but then actually saw enrage or locked in and cleared. But it's also fair to say that the vast majority of parties that wipe to earlier mechanics or HiaC in the first few pulls, will not have a chance of clearing in that party, at least until we're all max ilvl in 7.5 (maybe with 795 relic) and can first-time clear it with weakness and damage downs.

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for some reason that night, I really struggled to read Vamp Stamp. I died to the first Vamp Stamp during 2 pulls. Next thing I know, I got kicked out of the party. I joined another one, did Vamp Stamp cleanly all 3 times and we got the clear.

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If I get tired and mess up initial mechanics, I'm usually going to leave and go to sleep if I can't improve my focus. But sometimes I just try harder to focus and lock in when it's late and do it cleanly afer that like you did. I don't think kicking people for a mistake is the ideal solution (I avoid such parties). The ideal solution is better filtering prior to joining or people being more honest, then if there are mistakes, we know it's just mistakes and not that they aren't at prog point. Without that better filtering though, you can see why people get frustrated enough to kick though.

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There's a reason why my friends jokes about "legend btw" when we screw up. Just because we're experienced players doesn't mean we're flawless.

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Arguably ultimate raiders have more tolerance for wiping given the duration of pulls and amount of wipes. So I have brought my mindset to a point where I actually expect ultimate raiders to be the patient ones and viewing it this way seems to work. They know that wiping is part of the process, and they wouldn't have joined a PF without being ready for it to be a trap party.

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I prefer to believe that the majority of people that join PFs genuinely believe they can meet that prog point.

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They do genuinely believe it. Many times, I have been in Discord with people that genuinely believe it. What happens is they see a mechanic for the first time (not cleanly) and then say "right, now this is my prog point". They didn't get up to that mechanic cleanly, but because they saw it, they are all too happy to join parties that are progging that mechanic, or adjust their PF description to say they are progging that mechanic. They genuinely believe that is their prog point, but it is not because they don't understand that they need to be able to get to it consistently before saying that.

I shrug my shoulder. It's PF. I usually don't keep a high expectation, but PF has many decent players. For example, I'm trying to clear M11S now and several PF groups pushed my prog point to 0.6% now. Everyone plays hard so I constantly re-assess my play style and have improved a lot. There are players not doing their best. Usually I say nothing and just politely leave. In the meantime when I progged FRU, I've met so many understanding players and we became friends and we stayed together. I cleared FRU during last pull in 2 lockout with PF players (well I made friends through using PF and friends found other PF friends who helped me). Clearing FRU was the best experience I had with PF. There are PF players who like to kick other players because they don't perform those pulls up to PF leaders' expectation. I'd say that don't take it too hard as it reminds me to re-assess myself and do better. Regardless playing PF is also one way to have fun. If there is no fun, I recommend to pause a while and try again. Using PF, my thought is keeping expectation low but assess self more. If things won't work, don't worry too much. Move on. In the meantime I always keep an open mind and can make friends using PF.

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Originally Posted by GraceHorizon

For what it’s worth, I find Endwalker duties mostly easier than Shadowbringers. The dev team got very good at their visual language of telegraphs in boss fights; it’s usually fairly clear what you’re expected to do, and you have enough time to do it. There are a couple solo duties that can take some work, but if you’re having fun in the rest of the game you can always dial down the difficulty to get through them.

As for party finder … I hear nothing but horror stories about it. My only actual experience with it has been with people using it to do normal difficulty duties for the first time on Dynamis, but I can well imagine it’s no fun with a group of cranky elite players trying to clear a high end duty. (I’ve certainly had enough experience with badly behaved elite players in normal duties that I don’t want to spend time in a party full of them.) From all I’ve heard, statics are the most successful way to clear high end duties, and they also seem like a good way to find a group you’re okay spending time with.

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I mean it does have In From The Cold, though apparently it's toned down by a lot on Easy mode.

World-only PF was so much better since you knew most people doing end game on your server after playing for a bit, and had to actually have relationships with people in PF in case you needed groups in the future. Opening it up more was maybe necessary, but it completely ruined the ability for the community to police itself. With the way the game is now, even a prog point wouldn't really help much if they happened to get to it while on the floor or something. It would be better than nothing, but the content is designed to have difficulty spikes throughout that can be problematic for people regardless of progress point overall. Especially if they change jobs to fit into a party and end up doing something wildly different in the instance. Just because someone reached a mechanic, doesn't mean they know how to do everything before it consistently, or at all, depending on the specific examples.

PF experience has also degraded like crazy because older content was, by comparison, way easier to carry people through and a lot easier to learn quickly. Using PF is really hard to justify with the way the game is going. I still would recommend that if you are planning to do anything time consuming, try to find a group that can do as close to your needs as possible instead to avoid the random factor, or if you need flexibility, try to find a community that runs the content you would like with pick-up groups or something along those lines.

I shrug my shoulder. It's PF. I usually don't keep a high expectation, but PF has many decent players. For example, I'm trying to clear M11S now and several PF groups pushed my prog point to 0.6% now. Everyone plays hard so I constantly re-assess my play style and have improved a lot. There are players not doing their best. Usually I say nothing and just politely leave. In the meantime when I progged FRU, I've met so many understanding players and we became friends and we stayed together. I cleared FRU during last pull in 2 lockout with PF players (well I made friends through using PF and friends found other PF friends who helped me). Clearing FRU was the best experience I had with PF. There are PF players who like to kick other players because they don't perform those pulls up to PF leaders' expectation. I'd say that don't take it too hard as it reminds me to re-assess myself and do better. Regardless playing PF is also one way to have fun. If there is no fun, I recommend to pause a while and try again. Using PF, my thought is keeping expectation low but assess self more. If things won't work, don't worry too much. Move on. In the meantime I always keep an open mind and can make friends using PF.

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Originally Posted by GraceHorizon

For what it’s worth, I find Endwalker duties mostly easier than Shadowbringers. The dev team got very good at their visual language of telegraphs in boss fights; it’s usually fairly clear what you’re expected to do, and you have enough time to do it. There are a couple solo duties that can take some work, but if you’re having fun in the rest of the game you can always dial down the difficulty to get through them.

As for party finder … I hear nothing but horror stories about it. My only actual experience with it has been with people using it to do normal difficulty duties for the first time on Dynamis, but I can well imagine it’s no fun with a group of cranky elite players trying to clear a high end duty. (I’ve certainly had enough experience with badly behaved elite players in normal duties that I don’t want to spend time in a party full of them.) From all I’ve heard, statics are the most successful way to clear high end duties, and they also seem like a good way to find a group you’re okay spending time with.

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It still comes down to how I can't be trusted to be good at content and don't trust most others to be good at being people, so I just keep to myself whenever possible because its just trouble otherwise.