RDM Changes

Haven't logged since patch dropped since I've been working but my heart sunk seeing manafication has been totally changed to make melee combo no longer a melee combo. In a time where there is a lot of growing feeling of jobs feeling "same-y" this seems like a huge step in the wrong direction to make RDM fit into this as well. The gimmick of needing to start our most powerful spells my maintaining melee uptime for 5 SECONDS is the sole hurdle to overcome. Some EX amd Savage mechs challenge this but changing how the skill works in this way removes the fun challenge that happened on occasion.

I'm glad the melee requirement isnt gone wholesale from the job but feeling pretty cynical about 8.0 job reworks if this is the direction the job is going for the last raid tier until that rework.

I sincerely hope SE considers that these small job identity components make jobs feel special and when they erode it doesnt make the game more fun because it got easier. I want to be challenged.

What is extra annoying about this cheap cop-out for a fight that is no longer even relevant is that they didn't even give it a ranged animation. Like, you could have at least done that, Square!

Don't worry with a little luck they'll come up in apologies and say that when people said "buff RDM damage" they understood "buff RDM's range" like that time they did that with Iajutsu on SAM...

I am EXTREMELY disappointed by these RDM changes. As someone that has taken RDM to TOP DSR and TEA(Not FRU since my static wanted busted Picto) trying to keep melee uptime was the most fun part, especially in the 2 min buff window. Dunno I returned since its been a while but after I found this out I think im likely to leave again.

I'd honestly rather have them seen reclassify RDM as melee DPS instead of this, tbh.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

What is extra annoying about this cheap cop-out for a fight that is no longer even relevant is that they didn't even give it a ranged animation. Like, you could have at least done that, Square!

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I said it in another thread too something similar, like either make manafication create a phantom version of our character that can be in melee range executing our attacks to maintain some degree of job identity (although I still stand by removing melee requirement is a mistake I just assume SE is committed to this decision because they want to commit to this form of fight design)

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I'd honestly rather have them seen reclassify RDM as melee DPS instead of this, tbh.

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I wish it was a melee dps that functions similar to Paladin in that it would have a lot of ranged magic attacks, it being a magic ranged means you'll always hardly ever be using your sword.

At the very least i would love melee to be a big part of the job if not burst it could be a part of the filler rotation where melee will do slightly more mixed in with some magic attacks but isn't a massive loss if you stay full ranged, so it could function in all fights but the optimisation would be even more about your melee.

Theirs genuinely so much they can do with red mage to make it feel like it uses both melee and magic but they just keep adding random finishers and not actually addressing the job.

Don't worry next patch they'll give ranged attacks to every tanks because PLD has those already.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Don't worry next patch they'll give ranged attacks to every tanks because PLD has those already.

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Dark Knight throwing their sword Braveheart style?

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Dark Knight throwing their sword Braveheart style?

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No, DRK just performing the Torcleaver combo in the air at 25y from the target.

Fun thing is we have Reprise this is absolutely useless and could’ve been the solution to mana dump if we cannot be in melee and want to keep uptime and not overcap. Nope we kept the useless and removed the fun. Absolute terrible choice

Why would they do anything with what is essentially a useless ability. That would make too much sense.

Personally, I have found all the new changes to be good.

I believe there was a bit of a hit to "class identity" that people are struggling with. For example, the three-GCD sword combo becoming ranged while under the two-minute Manafication burst could probably benefit from a different animation; this would better convey that the attacks are now ranged rather than melee. I also believe that Manafication having a damage buff was never ideal because it was often misaligned and didn't fall under Embolden when manarushing. This change to Manafication had deeper mechanics in mind that most people are only viewing at a surface level.

I do not personally believe that the "fun" of Red Mage was stealing a melee player's position during certain content. When they design bosses, they have balanced party compositions in mind. A Red Mage delaying a sword combo during a two-minute burst—just to wait their turn to get three GCDs on the boss—isn't what made this class fun. It was only three GCDs (six for an actual burst if stored up) in a combo that is already far more ranged than melee to begin with.

Only ragging on a job's changes without appreciating the good is how you get them to pull the plug entirely. We know what that looks like because it has happened to other jobs. We need to rinse off some of this negativity and show that we aren't just crybabies. You might hate that it’s ranged now, but you should look at how these changes affect RDM in a gameplay sense, not just how it looks. You are literally being a melee outside of 2 min burst windows for that mobility sword combo, and you still have to use your gap closer, the identity and fun aren't dead. We just need a reinforcement of our identity more in 8.0. RED MAGE IS STILL FUN :0

These changes were good, just please reinforce our class identity in 8.0! :D

Edit: for spelling and grammar.

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Originally Posted by Solilunaris

Fun thing is we have Reprise this is absolutely useless and could’ve been the solution to mana dump if we cannot be in melee and want to keep uptime and not overcap. Nope we kept the useless and removed the fun. Absolute terrible choice

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How could a mana dump be a solution for red mage? It would have to stronger than at least half an entire sword and spell combo to ever be worth doing something like that before a boss leaves. And if its' about balancing your mana and cutting 20 from each then use moulinet. I love the creativity, but red mage's resource just doesn't work like that. Functionally, reprise is a mana dump, because its stronger than any part of the resource spending sword hits. Do you really want a knock off dispair? I don't

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

How could a mana dump be a solution for red mage? It would have to stronger than at least half an entire sword and spell combo to ever be worth doing something like that before a boss leaves. And if its' about balancing your mana and cutting 20 from each then use moulinet. I love the creativity, but red mage's resource just doesn't work like that. Functionally, reprise is a mana dump, because its stronger than any part of the resource spending sword hits. Do you really want a knock off dispair? I don't

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I mean instead of hitting the job identity they could have made the mana dump ability something useful?

Make reprise a combo that deals less damage than a full melee combo would work: you still are encouraged to get in melee range but if you can’t by any reason or you have to move and stay far you have a ranged burst ready.
It’s literally the function of Reprise as for now apart from mana dumping: too far but want to keep uptime and not overcap? Reprise.

The new changes make ZERO sense and are redundant

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Originally Posted by Solilunaris

I mean instead of hitting the job identity they could have made the mana dump ability something useful?

Make reprise a combo that deals less damage than a full melee combo would work: you still are encouraged to get in melee range but if you can’t by any reason or you have to move and stay far you have a ranged burst ready.
It’s literally the function of Reprise as for now apart from mana dumping: too far but want to keep uptime and not overcap? Reprise.

The new changes make ZERO sense and are redundant

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okay I under stand your personal creative take on what reprise "could be" just now

But the argument that the new changes make zero sense wasn't supported by that at all and I believe you are wanting my personal take by tacking it on at the end. Manafication's DPS buff was condensed because it was redundant. The range change on the 1-2-3 combo is a new change you dislike. I disagree with the "new-gen" take that this range change has killed the job's identity; I think we can communicate about a job needing changes without reacting to a range change on the 1-2-3 as if the job had been gutted.

This has been one of the most well-received jobs since its launch. You don't see long videos complaining about it or players on The Balance taking a dump on it. You just see threads like this one, taking a simple range change on a move and using it to say the class has been gutted and to argue that everything else in its kit needs to be changed. That isn't functional discourse; it's spearheading negativity without being constructive. Trust me, you won't like the result when the devs have to decide what the class will look like next. We should actively be trying to paint a better picture of what we want Red Mage to look like instead of trying to start bandwagons.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

okay I under stand your personal creative take on what reprise "could be" just now

But the argument that the new changes make zero sense wasn't supported by that at all and I believe you are wanting my personal take by tacking it on at the end. Manafication's DPS buff was condensed because it was redundant. The range change on the 1-2-3 combo is a new change you dislike. I disagree with the "new-gen" take that this range change has killed the job's identity; I think we can communicate about a job needing changes without reacting to a range change on the 1-2-3 as if the job had been gutted.

This has been one of the most well-received jobs since its launch. You don't see long videos complaining about it or players on The Balance taking a dump on it. You just see threads like this one, taking a simple range change on a move and using it to say the class has been gutted and to argue that everything else in its kit needs to be changed. That isn't functional discourse; it's spearheading negativity without being constructive. Trust me, you won't like the result when the devs have to decide what the class will look like next. We should actively be trying to paint a better picture of what we want Red Mage to look like instead of trying to start bandwagons.

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You speak as if the devs have spent the last 4 years doing banger after banger on combat combat changes then had one change that was mildly controversial and then go “why are you losing your minds”

For a lot of people this is another in a long long line of shaving away interesting pain points in a job for the sake of ~~(flawed)~~ encounter design. GNB is another, as is BLM, PCT, MCH, PLD, SMN, the healers, DRG and a few others I can’t remember

Unless your perspective is solely focused on not wanting to miss the melee combo in a strict positional limitation of the encounter design then at absolute best this change could be considered vaguely neutral, if you care about the hybrid design of the job this is an objective reduction in its identity on that front. And people don’t have a lot of evidence that this is moving the job in a positive direction considering their track record with at least half of the other jobs

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You speak as if the devs have spent the last 4 years doing banger after banger on combat combat changes then had one change that was mildly controversial and then go “why are you losing your minds”

For a lot of people this is another in a long long line of shaving away interesting pain points in a job for the sake of ~~(flawed)~~ encounter design. GNB is another, as is BLM, PCT, MCH, PLD, SMN, the healers, DRG and a few others I can’t remember

Unless your perspective is solely focused on not wanting to miss the melee combo in a strict positional limitation of the encounter design then at absolute best this change could be considered vaguely neutral, if you care about the hybrid design of the job this is an objective reduction in its identity on that front. And people don’t have a lot of evidence that this is moving the job in a positive direction considering their track record with at least half of the other jobs

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Yea, Red Mage is good, I wouldn't have played it since launch if I thought otherwise. Sounds like you have problems with the game man, not red mage.

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Yea, Red Mage is good, I wouldn't have played it since launch if I thought otherwise. Sounds like you have problems with the game man, not red mage.

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Just absolutely god tier arguments

“I like the job, I personally don’t have a problem with the changes maybe it’s a you problem”

Why even bother asking why (in your eyes) people are “overreacting” to the change when your response is “I like it so sucks to suck I guess”

While i don't disagree with the core idea of the change (as on some part it alleviates some of the issues that did pop up especially with the common strats for Brute Abominator savage) I think the range increase should have been attached only to Magicked Swordplay rather than changing the buff itself to the range increase. the changes around when you get Prefulgance additionally has on a knock on effect that impacts when Manafication itself can be used as you really aren't able to now drift it more than 30 seconds from embolden for the damage buff (something in which will happen naturally given its 110s cooldown)

Additionally making a reprise have similar costs as the base melee combo (20-15-15), making it into its own combo and enhanced by both manafication buffs but making it worse than the single target melee combo in exchange for its range would have been a better way to fix the same issue rather than the current way they have addressed it. (given its current use as a mana dump is absolutely worthless)

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Originally Posted by Milkbeard

Personally, I have found all the new changes to be good.

I believe there was a bit of a hit to "class identity" that people are struggling with. For example, the three-GCD sword combo becoming ranged while under the two-minute Manafication burst could probably benefit from a different animation; this would better convey that the attacks are now ranged rather than melee. I also believe that Manafication having a damage buff was never ideal because it was often misaligned and didn't fall under Embolden when manarushing. This change to Manafication had deeper mechanics in mind that most people are only viewing at a surface level.

I do not personally believe that the "fun" of Red Mage was stealing a melee player's position during certain content. When they design bosses, they have balanced party compositions in mind. A Red Mage delaying a sword combo during a two-minute burst—just to wait their turn to get three GCDs on the boss—isn't what made this class fun. It was only three GCDs (six for an actual burst if stored up) in a combo that is already far more ranged than melee to begin with.

Only ragging on a job's changes without appreciating the good is how you get them to pull the plug entirely. We know what that looks like because it has happened to other jobs. We need to rinse off some of this negativity and show that we aren't just crybabies. You might hate that it’s ranged now, but you should look at how these changes affect RDM in a gameplay sense, not just how it looks. You are literally being a melee outside of 2 min burst windows for that mobility sword combo, and you still have to use your gap closer, the identity and fun aren't dead. We just need a reinforcement of our identity more in 8.0. RED MAGE IS STILL FUN :0

These changes were good, just please reinforce our class identity in 8.0! :D

Edit: for spelling and grammar.

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Ex/Savage designers once again ruining the game

I've been playing with the change since patch and I've ultimately found that I think this is for the negative.

Red Mage was distinctly different from the other casters by needing to manage a lot of movement to sneak in melee combos around mechanics. While this gameplay is still there during downtime, it no longer matters during burst. This lowers the skill ceiling for the class and makes it act nearly identical to the other casters. Take the savage fight against Sugar Riot, as an example. While learning and failing adds phase, I was forced to forego most of my burst while we figured out the fight. Later, my static and I found out how to position everyone so I could sneak in melee attacks during burst - and if I didn't get it, it was my fault. Now, Manafication acts as a "delete positioning/timing mistake" button - the only value it has during burst is a singular (albeit 1200 potency) oGCD attack.

With both Black Mage and Summoner becoming very mobile over the last several patches, Red Mage's sole gameplay difference is balancing mana. While this isn't a great place to be in terms of job identity, I would be willing to accept it as long as all the casters did similar levels of damage at the top of the skill ceiling. It is not thrilling to come to the realization that your favorite caster isn't Black Mage, and therefore is effectively nerfing a team.

Anyway, since the devs are clearly committed to this change, I'd love to see these two follow-up changes:
1. When under the effect of Manafication, spawn an aetherial version of the WoL in melee range doing the attack, because it'd look cool
2. Do more to equalize DPS within a role so we can focus on the playstyle of a job (balancing Black/White Mana, singing songs, draining MP) rather than just bringing whatever has the most DPS for the patch

It's hilarious to me that red mage somehow became the least mobile caster and square Enix trying to address that only made people more unhappy somehow. I think the change red mage needed was making enchanted reprise require but NOT SPEND 5 of each mana.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

It's hilarious to me that red mage somehow became the least mobile caster and square Enix trying to address that only made people more unhappy somehow. I think the change red mage needed was making enchanted reprise require but NOT SPEND 5 of each mana.

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Oh that's a neat idea in a way, they could have made it so that during Manafication, Enchanted Reprise costs nothing and won't about the combo. Then you could just spam that while being at range before continuing in melee.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

It's hilarious to me that red mage somehow became the least mobile caster and square Enix trying to address that only made people more unhappy somehow. I think the change red mage needed was making enchanted reprise require but NOT SPEND 5 of each mana.

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I retired RDM (from its release to 7.2) when they lobotomized BLM for their new fight design. I always did find it baffling that they made the mana changes but left enchanted reprise at 5 mana cost... thus making it more expensive to use? It's not like it was a skill you went out of your way to spam unless you had to before.

If anything they just further discouraged its use.

Enchanted reprise has always cost too much resources to ever want to use and thats ridiculous when looking at mobility tools present on other caster even back in shadowbringers. Xenoglossy, egi assault, scathe were much better. I know they don't want Enchanted reprise getting over used but 5 mana of each mana deleted per swing is insane.