Gamba Marksman's Spite is terrible

Hot take, but you may think the faster the LB lands the better. Well I disagree strongly and this is why:

Since the damage hit registration changes, which have obviously been made to get out of the old snapshot system (like in pve) and allow for reactive gameplay so that people can block or counter specific actions, certain actions like Marksman's Spite are clearly counterable by anybody having Guard ready. This has somewhat nerfed Spite comparatively to what it could do by snapshotting in EW (you couldn't guard-react it), and it has moved it toward a more punitive decision: you use it on players that are already under Guard, so that they eat the shot once out of guard, or you use it on targets that you know cannot use Guard for other reasons.

So far so good, and Spite still took a whole 2s of animation before landing even after the changes in 7.1, until SE decided to shorten this significantly. There was literally no reason to do so, and I posit this is problematic because it generates and rewards BAD gameplay. A lot of MCHs use Spite without having any clue whether a target can guard or not, and they are often rewarded with a kill because the target they attack has their GCD spinning and cannot Guard in time. They have no way to know whether the target's GCD is about to be ready for Guard when they use Spite, or if it still has a way to go before being ready to Guard, yet they use Spite anyway, and that's what I call Gamba Spite. You're just gambling for your target not to guard because you constantly get rewarded for it out of pure rng.

This promotes bad gameplay, bad play, and it's become obvious that unlike before the change a lot of MCH players even in Crystal ranks also do that where they should clearly know better. I don't think this change was warranted at all since as explained above, since the hit registration changes you do not want to use Spite without knowing that the target can't guard anymore, which means that whether the hit takes 2s or less is irrelevant. The hit taking 2s can actually help you because you can start the shot earlier even if there is above 1s left on the enemy's Guard.

So I do believe this change was a terrible change.

I think the 2seconds of animation before it goes off is made so the enemy has time to react. Otherwise if it was instant then no oen could coutner it unless they ahve guard up already

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

I think the 2seconds of animation before it goes off is made so the enemy has time to react. Otherwise if it was instant then no oen could coutner it unless they ahve guard up already

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It's not 2s anymore, it's lower. I'm asking for it to be reverted to 2s for the reasons exposed above. Gamba spite sucks and rewards bad plays.

Playing MCH has always felt pretty "spray and pray" especially with the way Tool rotation works, Wildfire showing up whenever it feels like it, and the Autoturret being a grab bag of "will it actually help with anything this time" to say nothing of being a possible suicide button due to having to manually aim it.

The limit break being its own RNG at times fits the vibe I guess.

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Originally Posted by Valence

It's not 2s anymore, it's lower. I'm asking for it to be reverted to 2s for the reasons exposed above. Gamba spite sucks and rewards bad plays.

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as far as i know despite it being instant it still takes 2 seconds to use. Only way i gotten kills wiht it is after the turbelancee or knock up form clockwork otherwise i ahve to wait for guards to be done then use it

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

as far as i know despite it being instant it still takes 2 seconds to use. Only way i gotten kills wiht it is after the turbelancee or knock up form clockwork otherwise i ahve to wait for guards to be done then use it

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It's in the patch notes. Whatever amount it takes right now, it's too short and promotes bad plays. You can get targeted by it and left unable to Guard even though you could Guard just because your GCD is spinning now. It's very dumb.

Can't help but feel it's another design decision tested by a developer on a geographically small island nation with decent internet between opponents. Not saying it's alright there, either, but far worse on NA and EU.

just allow it to ignore guard, problem solved

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Originally Posted by Wanderer42

just allow it to ignore guard, problem solved

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No its already a strong pvp LB besides NIN and SAM. does at base 40,000 potency letting it ignore guard would make it more broken

For Marksman's spite, what I sometimes tend to do is catch the opponent by surprise with an Analysis Air Anchor first to give them a bit less time to react or one that's primary focused on someone.
As Analysis drill (before instead of after the lb) & drill kind of gives away to the opponent how you plan to knock it out.

But knowing one of my matches from 2 days ago. I think Marksman's spite goes off the same time as NIN's Seiton Tenchu and MNK's Meteodrive.

As I was in this situation where the opponent NIN and I used our LB's at each other. (Basically used mine like a tiny millisecond earlier before immediately getting locked but the knife clattering and blood splatter you hear at the end made it sound like we both got each other instead of one of us standing?)

Though sometimes thought it was useful for preventing a NIN getting more than 1 person.

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Originally Posted by Valence

This promotes bad play.

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The whole current PvP system is based on that principle. I think it is mostly intended.

Good players are no longer giving an option if they want to purify or recuperate, often it is just better to immediately use all resources, no matter how minimal or ineffective the outcome is. Traditionally you set yourself apart from other players by using those actions smartly, not countering any cc with purify, not bursting into guard etc. Nowadays it is more often bad to do that.

This is how they close the skill gap between players. It is a handicap to good players, for bad players its a buff. This will bring you closer to 50% winrates, a dice roll. Instead of precision play you have gambling.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say to be honest.

Being able to Guard a Spite (or any other move) is smart. Being able to punish a Guard by Spiting the player once they get out of it is also smart.
Being able to punish someone with Spite just because they're fighting and generating action delays even though they could Guard otherwise, is dumb and rewards bad play. It's literally the freecure of pvp.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm not sure what you're trying to say to be honest.

Being able to Guard a Spite (or any other move) is smart. Being able to punish a Guard by Spiting the player once they get out of it is also smart.
Being able to punish someone with Spite just because they're fighting and generating action delays even though they could Guard otherwise, is dumb and rewards bad play. It's literally the freecure of pvp.

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I am talking generally mostly. The amount of gameplay events that could be "smart" have been reduced drastically over time, so this Spite change isn't really that crazy. Just another change in a long line of changes that are similar.

The whole game mode rewards bad gameplay. It rewards you playing emotional instead of logical. Like I said in the past, it is good for fun, I think less suited for competitive. You can see the dumbest plays being made ending up successful.
There is not much difference in results between playing super seriously and playing unpredictable like a memer. It is sometimes scary how I notice myself playing like an idiot, but then double check if it was the most optimal play or not...

It boils down to, that many skills do multiple things at once (attack, defense, support, cc - all in one), and the defending but also the attacking player has no influence over them.
I can say the same about Imperator being still slow and keeping you locked in animation, preventing me to guard or recuperate in time, to show me my death screen with a Confiteor heal + 15000 recuperate heal on my screen, after I already received lethal damage.

They then can say, if the skill wasn't supposed to be guarded, it wasn't your fault you haven't been evading it. If the skill is unavoidable, you won't blame the netcode. If it is 2s and you still get hit, even after guarding, thinking it would be in time, you would get mad at the net code, because you didn't avoid an avoidable attack. So these changes hide the weakness of their engine. Having a RNG/gambling PvP, will make people focus less on lag.
In a weird way this helps against cheaters, who would make a trigger when an enemy player is targeting them and pressing LB, they could make a script to auto-guard whenever that happens.

It is best used on enemies who do not have guard ready. You use it on targets who have already been pressured enough to use guard. You need to have the awareness to track enemy guard in high level CC.

- Those without guards
- Those without MP > stun them and then do LB
- Chainsaw combo + lb but this is % chance to work unless they don't have guard.

Yeah, that's what you're supposed to do as a mch, but not the point of the thread.