Red Mage idea

Ok so I am bored at work and had an idea. Here is the TL,DR version of it.

Red Mage - GLD/THM
Tank class that uses enfeebling magic, en-spells (enthunder,fire, etc) for enmity generation, and THM spells for extra dps.
Lower def than PLD but higher dps to counter that

Make warrior a true DD (they are a 2h class after all)

Now I am biased because I love RDM and tank classes but I think it would be a cool idea


/discuss

Make Fencer the main class and GLD/THM the sub classes with THM as main sub class.
The weapon should be more the rapier style instead of a sword, I think.
Because the red mages are similar to the "3 musketeer" from the appearance to me ^^

THey need something started with THM, it has the lowest unock combo of base jobs.

You can't have anything with too high of defense and damage, that is embalnaced. RDM would have moderate defense (equal to a leather armor) and reduced spell damage with soem over time added. THey can in no way be a primary tank, primary DD, primary healer. but a blance.

BLM's are suffering with lack of balanced elemental spells and damage which luckily is being addressed. Wars can't be primary DD either but a slightly under pld in defense with ability to do over time damage and maintain hate.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Make Fencer the main class and GLD/THM the sub classes with THM as main sub class

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That could work. That solves my problem of what 3 classes would make up the ability list

RDM would need access to CNJ too, as it always used both black and white magic.

Definitely hoping for Fencer as the Class that unlocks Red Mage =)

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Originally Posted by kazaran

THey need something started with THM, it has the lowest unock combo of base jobs.

You can't have anything with too high of defense and damage, that is embalnaced. RDM would have moderate defense (equal to a leather armor) and reduced spell damage with soem over time added. THey can in no way be a primary tank, primary DD, primary healer. but a blance.


BLM's are suffering with lack of balanced elemental spells and damage which luckily is being addressed. Wars can't be primary DD either but a slightly under pld in defense with ability to do over time damage and maintain hate.

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Yeah I was thinking leather-ish level of def for it. And though I don't want to spin this into a pld vs war thread (or maybe a grass thread) why can't war be a dd? Just an aoe focused dd with survivability that can withstand pulling hate from groups for a short time while the true tank classes regain hate.

As for BLM don't ask me. Dps Mage classes in every game have similar flaws an I never can come up with a viable fix

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Originally Posted by Gokulo

RDM would need access to CNJ too, as it always used both black and white magic.

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Typically yes you are right. Traditional red Mage would be cnj too but in the current job system I don't think it can work. Plus if you do that then instead of a tank substitute it is a brd substitute as off heal/enfeeble instead. Without the access to cnj it would still make it important to have whm and brd in parties so it doesn't turn into A. Brd vs rdm whine fest or B. ffxi ninja tank where they can survive better and make pld worthless.

Problem with stemming the job off of GLA is it would bring a 3rd tankish job in the mix. Not that I don't blame you for wanting to turn GLA into a more DPSesque format, but GLA's abilities are too restrictive towards tanking. Gear Wise just about every armor in the game can be used by their class/job counterparts and that in itself would cause a huge rift with RDM if they specifically tailored them to lighter based armor.

If were to truly get a workable hybrid job we need to have a class that's built around it, but with the limitations of actions and abilities they need to combine the hybrid elements to work together mixing the melee and magic aspects that way they all have to be used to get the optimal effect. I suppose they could try keeping the aspects separate, however with the limited number of abilities per job it might underpower one aspect and cause one side to be preferred over or destroy the job's overall usefulness in anything worthwhile in the game like with FFXI which by far was the worst and most poorly implemented rendition of RDM known.

If you'd like an idea what I'm talking about here's a thread I created some time ago that built RDM from the ground up based on the similarities and patterns of other jobs and classes.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...gn-Red-Mage%21

Fencer with conjurer and thaumaturge.

haven't read everything yet, but just wanted to chime in and say, i think this is where stances would actually be nice to have.. fencing stance is traditionally more "sophisticated" than the basic gladiatorial stance. I know they said they wouldn't have stances for each race, but they should definitely consider it for jobs.

Link in my sig. Read it.

off the top of my head rdm will most likely be

main: fencer sub: thm & cnj

rdm spells: dia, bio, paralyze, blind, refresh
fencer abilities: enspell type WS's (no idea of what else they would add for fencer, maybe be like dancer from FFXI)

wanna see what they really do when rdm happens.

Your idea sucks. RDM should use nunchuks and have throwing stars and disc golf frisbees.

However they do RDM, I want it to actually be USEFUL in melee. I hated how XI's RDM was totally useless with a sword.

Intead of pulling classes together for such a sophisticated and power job as RDM( a job in itself which has versatile uses, anyone who chooses to play it can play any way they wish), why not combine "JOBs" like WHM, BLM and GLD etc. to unlock it Rdm.

You really wish to work powers of enfeeble, learn to play other classes/ jobs to hone the skill of being a rdm. Too many players in FFxi thought they know everything and often tell others what to do and how to play their job(which pisses ppl off a lot, including me).

SE has there ways and could use ideas who to implement new and old jobs. Make it some what creative and challenging so we don't get a mass of RDm spamming "newbies" out there thinking they're the sh!t.

Story of today: I was told today (during a DD run)that our warrior(lv.50) didn't know what were "totems" and he was carrying around a "Ifrit's Axe". Like wtf??!! He was wearing the War AF and all and wasn't knowledgeable on what we were doing in the dungeon. Was a case of a "RMT account".

May that wasn't a good example of what this thread is about but thought I throw it out there. Enspells ... Rdm is known for using enfeeble through their weapons and those of the party. Make good with that and the job can melee all they want!

I doubt they'll use gladiator to unlock red mage. It needs to be something else.

could someone explain the obsession/fascination with RDM? Ive never play XI, but from limited experience playing/using RDM in other titles, it seems.. half baked

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Originally Posted by rina_inverse

could someone explain the obsession/fascination with RDM? Ive never play XI, but from limited experience playing/using RDM in other titles, it seems.. half baked

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Think about it like in FF12. Your red mage could not only do good melee damage, but had the ability to use multiple skills from many classes. Not only could my red mage heal but it could also nuke. Not only could it buff but it could also debuff. It is the true hybrid job.

Yes, but XII is not a job-based titles, and a non job-based titles tend to be over powered hybrid

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Originally Posted by rina_inverse

could someone explain the obsession/fascination with RDM? Ive never play XI, but from limited experience playing/using RDM in other titles, it seems.. half baked

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It's unfinished business for those of us from the melee camp. The crowd that got urinated on by FFXI's playerbase because having the Red Mage spam cures, refresh and haste was more useful to them than letting the melee mage be a melee mage. The developers being scared to death of RDM was the other issue, but instead of doing what any other dev team would have done (read: nerf the hell out of the OP parts of the job) they just let it be. It shows even now because RDM is miles behind pretty much every other job in the game.

We don't want the mistakes of the past repeated, hence the suggestions. Some like the OP, some like the idea linked in my signature.

You were always welcome to melee as a RDM in FFXI.

Just not in any setting where people were looking to get XP at an efficient rate, down an NM, complete a quest, etc.

but you cant get the best of both, it will ruin the balance
I personally prefer GLA/PLD finally getting that magick sword in the opening movie

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Originally Posted by Dawiichan

Think about it like in FF12. Your red mage could not only do good melee damage, but had the ability to use multiple skills from many classes. Not only could my red mage heal but it could also nuke. Not only could it buff but it could also debuff. It is the true hybrid job.

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Don't forget the fact that they are the most stylish job in all of Final Fantasy.

stylish is the same with opinion, if it's other then its obsolete

People like RDM because its AF traditionally incorporates a fedora/wide brim hat with a feather in it, typically referred to as a "pimp hat".

If XI is any indication, the devoted followers of RDM are both some of the worst players and most vocal.

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Originally Posted by rina_inverse

but you cant get the best of both, it will ruin the balance
I personally prefer GLA/PLD finally getting that magick sword in the opening movie

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PLD holy sword skills are and should be different from magic sword. And who said anything about getting the best of both. You design the job around application of their attacks/spells and build from there. Ramsey's suggestion in the RDM Design thread has the right idea of what to aim for.

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Originally Posted by rina_inverse

Yes, but XII is not a job-based titles, and a non job-based titles tend to be over powered hybrid

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Sorry, I'm talking about a different version of XII. I'm talking about FFXII International with the Zodiac Job system. In here there are jobs (12 in total), and Red Mage was what it is in my description(Balthier was my Red Mage).

http://media.photobucket.com/image/f.../zodiacjob.jpg

I see RDM job coming more from Musketeer than GLA. It really makes sense if you think about it. Traditional Musketeers always had the epee sword as well as a gun.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...eer-female.jpg

Musketeer to unlock red mage seems like a more reasonable choice. They do dress like one.

Lots of good comments. Lots of troll comments.

Let's get it straight red Mage stems not from ffxi. It is a job that is a part of ff in general. First time it appeared? Ff1. It was a fun jack of all trades job and that, for me at least, is the draw.

Did I have a rdm in ffxi and look pimp? Sure did. But I also had a Camelot looking old and Peter pan thf so it wasn't about look it was about the play.

We talk about red Mage because it is a staple job in ff and is as much a part of ff and chocobos moogles and Cid

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Originally Posted by Delila

I see RDM job coming more from Musketeer than GLA. It really makes sense if you think about it. Traditional Musketeers always had the epee sword as well as a gun.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...eer-female.jpg

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If we didn't have the armoury system, I could get behind this (sword while on foot, musket while on chocoboback?). As we have the armoury system, I'd think the rapier fits the job better than the musket. Musketeer could then become Ranger or some other ranged job while Fencer could become Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

You were always welcome to melee as a RDM in FFXI.

Just not in any setting where people were looking to get XP at an efficient rate, down an NM, complete a quest, etc.

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In summation, nowhere were you allowed to use melee as a RDM in FFXI, aside from solo.

Early on you could melee in Ffxi. At least me and a few rdm friends always did. As long as you did your other jobs it don't matter if you got in some melee dps in between

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Originally Posted by Punainen

In summation, nowhere were you allowed to use melee as a RDM in FFXI, aside from solo.

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Exactly my point.

Red mage may have been in the series from the start, in fact, it is one of the original 3 "jobs" presented in the series, but it was never what some people think it to be.

In fact, this wiki entry pretty much nails what Red mage is, and that vision was very clearly interpreted and portrayed in FFXI.

"However, being unable to wield or use the highest level magic or equipment, the Red Mage is generally relegated to a support position. They are a jack of all trades, but a master of none."

If Red mage ever did appear in XIV, it would very likely be much more relevant in its swordplay than say, XI. It wouldn't make much sense for that one aspect to overshadow the other aspects of the job (black magic, white magic, debuffs, buffs, etc). When all these things are combined, you get a very powerful class and so obviously it needs to be toned down and that's where the tears will come.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

If we didn't have the armoury system, I could get behind this (sword while on foot, musket while on chocoboback?). As we have the armoury system, I'd think the rapier fits the job better than the musket. Musketeer could then become Ranger or some other ranged job while Fencer could become Red Mage.

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Yes but why doe's having the armoury system mean only one weapon? GLA has sword/dagger/shield. THM and CNJ have one and two handed weapons. Also the Fencer mobs in game have broadswords and shields not rapiers.

The description (so far) of Red Mage in XIV- "A new type of magic-user that uses enfeebling magic and close-range attacks. (ex. Red Mage, etc.)" http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/46936

I am happy that they are considering it's close-ranged aspect, but I guess the magic side is more towards enfeebling. However, I can see why having a pure hybrid may not be a good idea if it derives from a melee class such as fencer. There will only be 5 skills that will give you the hybrid mage feeling to it. There is also the good chance that Chainspell will be your 5th ability (following the current trend).

Then again, they could also do it somewhat like Archer. Archer has swiftsong even though it's obviously a bard skill. Fencer could have some magic spells on it if they were to go that route.

In the end, I'm glad that it is at least thought of as melee mage by Yoshida.

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Originally Posted by Delila

Yes but why doe's having the armoury system mean only one weapon? GLA has sword/dagger/shield. THM and CNJ have one and two handed weapons. Also the Fencer mobs in game have broadswords and shields not rapiers.

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It was mentioned that GLA was going to lose it's dagger(accidently wrote sword) and the Fencer mobs are GLAs. Now the difference between Two Handed and One handed will be a nice bonus, but I don't think they are going for extreme changes such muskets and rapiers. It will probably be something like one-handed and two-handed swords.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

"However, being unable to wield or use the highest level magic or equipment, the Red Mage is generally relegated to a support position. They are a jack of all trades, but a master of none."

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Which doesn't work in an MMO and forces the developers to give it a menial and iconoclastic "role" because it would otherwise have no other use in-game, easily proven by XI.

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If Red mage ever did appear in XIV, it would very likely be much more relevant in its swordplay than say, XI. It wouldn't make much sense for that one aspect to overshadow the other aspects of the job (black magic, white magic, debuffs, buffs, etc).

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Considering the context of this game and the armoury system, yes, swordplay would be a lot more relevant for RDM. That's not a bad thing, as it prevents stupid things like RDM with a staff from overtaking everything else. It also forces the developers to make the melee and magic sides of RDM mesh and combine into something, which is a huge improvement over "here's a sword, some white magic, some black magic".

I prefer the XI usefulness to another sword job.

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Originally Posted by Churchill

If Red mage ever did appear in XIV, it would very likely be much more relevant in its swordplay than say, XI. It wouldn't make much sense for that one aspect to overshadow the other aspects of the job (black magic, white magic, debuffs, buffs, etc). When all these things are combined, you get a very powerful class and so obviously it needs to be toned down and that's where the tears will come.

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my point
the higher your hope fly, the more it hurt when it not happen