I'm not nearly as critical as most on Dawntrail, BUT...

I want to preface this by saying that this is not another Wuk Lamat rant or anything like that. She's not my favorite character, but I'm also not as annoyed by her as many others are. I actually love the Turalian zones for the most part and the story is decent, it's no Endwalker by any means, but I was warned not to expect it.

Here is the critique I want to get out of my system though. I do not really care for this iteration of Alexandria. When someone told me Alexandria from FF9 played a major role in Dawntrail, I got super excited as FF9 was my 2nd favorite of the series and a close one at that. So I was a tad disappointed to arrive and find that... it is nothing like the Alexandria I remember. I actually turned to ask my friend, "What am I playing, Mass Effect?" I understand the lore reason, I do realize that the familiar Alexandria does exist, but it's completely trashed. And therein lies my problem. Pretty much every location from a former Final Fantasy game is either ruins (Archeo Alexandria, Doma, Rabanastre, Ivalice, Troia), mentioned as destroyed off screen (Lindblum, Cleyra and pretty much every other FF9 locale) or is only available in a dungeon and not overworld exploration, and heck, they are both in the process of being wrecked, IN the dungeon. (Alexandria, Baron, Rabanastre) I guess since they already destroyed the FF4 reference world with the Void, I was hoping maybe we'd get an intact reference world at some point. (Seems they like trashing the locations from former games for some reason or remodeling them into something unrecognizable)

I do like the expansion so far and didn't want to nit pick the little things, but I just wanted to get my minor disappointment of the Alexandria arc off of my chest.

I think it's best to acknowledge that this Alexandria is just not the one from IX. It's a transparent homage, absolutely, but it's not really trying to evoke IX in any truly meaningful way beyond surface level. And personally, I prefer that to the sometimes more ham-fisted "references" that end up baffling more than fan-servicing (like the Return to Ivalice storyline, in my opinion; as much as I love the raids themselves, I think it did irreparable damage to XIV's lore, while simultaneously disservicing the source material it tried to cram into it lol). And I'm sure someone will argue this crosses that fine line too, but I appreciated that it stayed within the parameters of XIV's world as we currently understand it.

Inasmuch as XIV is a veritable Final Fantasy theme park as it is, I'm not interested in literally revisiting the world of IX (or any other installment) by way of this story. I can just replay IX for that.

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Originally Posted by Corgain

Here is the critique I want to get out of my system though. I do not really care for this iteration of Alexandria. [...] (Seems they like trashing the locations from former games for some reason or remodeling them into something unrecognizable)

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Yeah, that's the point.

Part of the story around Alexandria and Preservation (I don't know how far you've gotten so I'll be vague) is that they have a toxic relationship with their past, which is represented by 'FFIX Alexandria', or at least a more direct adaptation of it. Alexandria venerates a history that they cannot even remember or interact with; on the other hand Preservation is provided the privilege of knowing and interacting, but treats that past with... an actually kinda difficult emotion to nail down; it's not contempt, but it's also not indifference. They know what value these things hold, they recognize that value, but they refuse to share it themselves, only using it cynically; the 7.2 and 7.3 dungeons are a great display of this, but again, not sure if you've reached them.

And by using FFIX as that idyllic past, that cannot be returned to but is being abused by the people with access to it, the developers are giving YOU a connection to that past that transcends what's in the text. You are meant to feel bad about what Preservation has done and is doing to Alexandria, because you as a person who knows FFIX knows what they've abused and corrupted.

It's interesting to compare it to how 6.x treats FFIV stuff (especially Baron), because that does a similar thing while being less antagonizing about it; they use your presumed familiarity with FFIV to prefill the world of the Thirteenth pre-corruption, to let you know what was lost, but unlike with Alexandria nobody's really directly at fault for what happened; the Thirteenth was a mistake on every single person's part, and the main thing the remnants really convey is neglect; nobody has the capacity to still care about what was. So while you as a player can recognize Baron being destroyed in the Lunar Subterrane, Zero's Domain being a recreation of SNES Baron, and what a place like Troia once was, at this point they're just... neglected ruins, being lived in by people who just don't have any use for that past, compared to Preservation who do know, and actively refuse to care.

If you want a shallow reference that goes 'we mentioned an FFIX thing, please clap', we've had them for years; Ozma's probably the most striking one, at least to me, and 7.3 really drives one home in particular. But Dawntrail's Alexandria is doing something deeper and more deliberate: they're telling a story built around the fact that FFIX is known, and beloved.

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

I think it's best to acknowledge that this Alexandria is just not the one from IX. It's a transparent homage, absolutely, but it's not really trying to evoke IX in any truly meaningful way beyond surface level. And personally, I prefer that to the sometimes more ham-fisted "references" that end up baffling more than fan-servicing (like the Return to Ivalice storyline, in my opinion; as much as I love the raids themselves, I think it did irreparable damage to XIV's lore, while simultaneously disservicing the source material it tried to cram into it lol). And I'm sure someone will argue this crosses that fine line too, but I appreciated that it stayed within the parameters of XIV's world as we currently understand it.

Inasmuch as XIV is a veritable Final Fantasy theme park as it is, I'm not interested in literally revisiting the world of IX (or any other installment) by way of this story. I can just replay IX for that.

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That's all well and good, but IX is super dated and I'd love to revisit that world in a more detailed setting, since by now, it's becoming more obvious that the rumored 9 remake was just that. My whole point is that if they were going to do these obvious references at all, they'd give us a bit more with it. I'd rather they not do them at all honestly and have XIV's world more unique, and maybe just use easter eggs to give that themepark feel. It just feels a bit of a tease, that's all. Thank you for your reply.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, that's the point.

Part of the story around Alexandria and Preservation (I don't know how far you've gotten so I'll be vague) is that they have a toxic relationship with their past, which is represented by 'FFIX Alexandria', or at least a more direct adaptation of it. Alexandria venerates a history that they cannot even remember or interact with; on the other hand Preservation is provided the privilege of knowing and interacting, but treats that past with... an actually kinda difficult emotion to nail down; it's not contempt, but it's also not indifference. They know what value these things hold, they recognize that value, but they refuse to share it themselves, only using it cynically; the 7.2 and 7.3 dungeons are a great display of this, but again, not sure if you've reached them.

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While I appreciate your detailed explaination, I took your tone as an allusion that I do not follow the story or something. I do. I included that in my critique. I can understand the why's and how's but still not really be a fan of the way it was done. And, no, I haven't reached post-Dawntrail yet, I was posting this from the PoV of a person that this content is wholly new to. I am close to the end of base Dawntrail, so I understand the lore behind Preservation, Oblivion, storm surge, IXth shard, etc insofar that I've gotten up to this point. This is just a minor complaint, and I'm not looking to trash the game or expac. I would honestly, like I said in my other response, they would just not do these obvious plugs from other games at all, if they are going to do them in such a strange fashion of.. well this place is the same, but not the same as that other one, despite looking almost identical (just in ruins form), having the same themes, blatant doppelgangers of that games characters, and the exact same name AND neighbors with the same names. Either give us the place and make XIV have links to actual FF universe as a whole (as in the ability to learn about the existence of OTHER FF worlds/ interact with them), or keep XIV's it's own thing with some easter eggs like XI's world largely was. Otherwise to some, like me, it just comes off as a strange, jarring inclusion, because without being the actual place, it feels impossible to be this blatantly the same AS the other place. (at least historically speaking in Alexandria's case). It's much the same with Doma, Rabanastre, Baron etc, all aslo being included in XIV's universe and being outright near copies. What are the odds that all of these identical places exist in the same universe, but have nothing to do with the others? I'm having trouble suspending my disbelief at this point is all with the story. My way, and have them BE the actual place and have a multiverse, or them not existing at all, just makes more sense to me. Is that a better explaination as to how I feel toward it?

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Originally Posted by Corgain

I am close to the end of base Dawntrail, so I understand the lore behind Preservation, Oblivion, storm surge, IXth shard, etc insofar that I've gotten up to this point.

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Okay, thanks for the confirmation, because here's the thing: we can't actually have this conversation until you finish the story. Because you haven't even seen what the game is doing with this material yet, you've just reflexively decided not to like it. You need to at least finish base Dawntrail to properly see what they're doing with this material. Ideally I'd recommend you get to 7.2, because the 7.2 dungeon is a perfect exhibit of what exactly Dawntrail is doing with this material, but as-is you haven't even seen the game make its base-level case, which it makes most strongly in the final zone.

I don't normally go 'you need to finish the story to have opinions on it'--god knows I've lambasted Baldur's Gate 3 enough for a game I only half-finished--but this particular story element is back-loaded. You literally haven't seen FFXIV's entire take on Alexandria yet, and honestly, I think you'll like it if you try to catch what they're pitching in that final zone.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Okay, thanks for the confirmation, because here's the thing: we can't actually have this conversation until you finish the story. Because you haven't even seen what the game is doing with this material yet, you've just reflexively decided not to like it. You need to at least finish base Dawntrail to properly see what they're doing with this material. Ideally I'd recommend you get to 7.2, because the 7.2 dungeon is a perfect exhibit of what exactly Dawntrail is doing with this material, but as-is you haven't even seen the game make its base-level case, which it makes most strongly in the final zone.

I don't normally go 'you need to finish the story to have opinions on it'--god knows I've lambasted Baldur's Gate 3 enough for a game I only half-finished--but this particular story element is back-loaded. You literally haven't seen FFXIV's entire take on Alexandria yet, and honestly, I think you'll like it if you try to catch what they're pitching in that final zone.

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See, and I love BG3. We are likely two different people with different persepectives is all. We all aren't going to like the same things, in other words. I have every intention of finishing. I just wanted to put my thoughts out about the story as they come and this one felt particularly jarring to me, and to see if I am the only person that feels like they should either have the actual locations from other games, or not at all instead of identical places with the same names that somehow arent. But, I still appreciate the conversation, whether we agree or disagree.

I think one detail that's been lost on us English players is the fact that DT is actually supposed to be called "Golden Legacy." The localizers opted to change the name to Dawntrail to better imply this expansion being chapter one of the second story of FFXIV, but Golden Legacy is a far better title, I think.

The Right is all about how the four candidates choose to live up to the legacy left by those that came before; their father and the children of Mamook. We complete a section respecting the legacy of Galool Ja Ja and educating ourselves on the ways the Turali people had been shaped into their current selves, and then we go to Alexandria.

The quirk of Alexandria is that their regulator system means the average Alexandrian has no legacy, because they are made to forget it. The insane technology in the city feeling millenia ahead of other societies, built of wrecked and ignored ruins of the old city is just one part of it. These people don't even recall the faces of their parents once they pass on, let alone the times they shared, because thinking about that hurts. They don't have libraries or museums or statues or anything that they can learn from. Their most popular form of entertainment is a fighting arena with regular retirees that vanish from the public eye. They only move forward. Make new. Build more. Innovate.

Even the people of Heritage Found are adapting into this mindset. They've fully embraced the technology into the daily lives and very few had interest in going back to Tural. The 30 year time bubble is the only thing holding them back since the regulators can't delete people outside the dome and they haven't completely aged out.


Spoilers ahead:


Calyx being a child prodigy even reflects this theme. He was a child with no future thanks to his illness. He was the lead of Preservation, the organization that "turned" people into data without the limits of a physical form, but also built a fairytale city for said Endless to play in and enjoy their eternity in joyful bliss. He's taciturn by nature, but Calyx wasn't allowed to grow up, either.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

I think one detail that's been lost on us English players is the fact that DT is actually supposed to be called "Golden Legacy." The localizers opted to change the name to Dawntrail to better imply this expansion being chapter one of the second story of FFXIV, but Golden Legacy is a far better title, I think. [...]

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That was a lovely analysis. Thank you for writing it out so thoughtfully. I agree "The Golden Legacy" or something close to its original meaning would have fit the expansion's theme much better.

Thank you for that great, and interesting breakdown!

The other thing that has me wondering and scratching my head. WoL finds out about beings (the endless) being created by memories of the deceased and promptly gives *shocked Pikachu face, same reaction to living memory. Excuse me, WoL. Did we not just spend hours and hours doing the exact same thing as Sphene with the Ultima Thule races and Elysian? Why is this development so shocking when we just dealt with how bat---t crazy Dynamis is? I get the difference in that Living Memory requires stealing souls to survive, and Elysion does not, but I wouldn't think discovering this at this point would not be THAT shocking to anyone on the main team. lol

Also, how are the beings of Elysion and Living Memory any different from a philisophical standpoint? Both are originally dead, one is made of memories/dynamis the other memories/souls. Both seem sentient and tangible. I guess my question is, outside of HOW they are sustained, why would the concept of living memory be horrifying to the cast, but Elysion would not?

I can't help but to feel like my WoL has just done a horrible, contradictive/hypocritical thing to what the last expansion taught us about the beings of Ultima Thule/Elysion. I had a very difficult time finishing this portion. It also calls back to what Zero told Golbez. "Destroying another world to save your own is wrong." I feel like what I just did, is exactly that, and can't shake this making me not feel good.

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Originally Posted by Corgain

Also, how are the beings of Elysion and Living Memory any different from a philisophical standpoint? Both are originally dead, one is made of memories/dynamis the other memories/souls. Both seem sentient and tangible. I guess my question is, outside of HOW they are sustained, why would the concept of living memory be horrifying to the cast, but Elysion would not?

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You said philosophically, so I'm shooting entirely past any in-universe material divisions here like the presence (or lack thereof) of a soul here. Which is good, because I don't think that argument matters.

Essentially, the core difference in reaction to both of them are actually in exactly 'how they are sustained'. Both were essentially recreations of people, but their root reasons for existing and cost are different. Ultima Thule's people, including the people we met in the Omicron society quest, essentially do not have a meaningful 'cost'--either whatever they're running on literally can exist perpetually, or the question of what they're running on just wasn't especially relevant to anyone we talked to. The Endless, on the other hand, have a very concrete cost: corporeal aether (a.k.a. life force, different from souls; not the most clearly stated thing), harvested from living people, preferably yours.

There's also a question of why they were made in both cases. Ultima Thule's denizens are, in a weird, twisted way, created for their own sake: Meteion made the originals essentially to make them suffer, and then the Omicrons later made some simulations for the purposes of giving them whatever form of closure and community they can. They are there for themselves. That is actually not true for the Endless: they essentially exist for the sake of the living. The Endless are a twisted manifestation of Alexandria's belief that you live as long as you're remembered; they are, essentially, an extremely elaborate photo album of the deceased. ...but a photo album is only worth having if you look at it, so you have the deep, tragic irony that because of the regulators' memory erasure, nobody is looking at it. Compound that with the exorbitant cost required to keep them 'alive'? We can only ever pull out the blade against that.

If the Endless weren't running on literal human lives, we'd probably be cool with it; we actually didn't really shut them down due to an objection to the Endless, we shut them down because they were the thing Sphene was willing to kill entire planets for. But they are a memorial to the dead; the worst thing you could do is keep sacrificing living people to it.

That's a pretty good explaination. I still feel super bad though. I'm sitting here asking myself, if we can pull off all of this other super impossible, hope driven nonsense, why did no one stop and ask. "Is there a different way? Can Y'shtola or Urianger put their two cents in?" Can we ask Sharlayan if there is another source of energy that could be substituted to sustain the "people" of Living Memory. But then again, TOO MANY impossibly good solutions can break suspension of disbelief. I'm just super conflicted with this one.

One detail is dynamis is just a fantasy metaphor for dark matter (while aether is matter) but it was framed as a bit of an easter egg as Hermes used the same estimated percentage of dynamis as is estimated for dark matter. The recreations in Ultima Thule are a wholly unknown and new form of life of pur dynamis are just living out there.

So I fully agree with Cleretic that the difference is entirely how the Endless are sustained. We also have the factor that many Endless, particularly in the optional side quests, are fully cognizant to the fact they are copies of dead people and are fine with fading away, which takes much of the edge off of turning them off.

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Originally Posted by RedLolly

So I fully agree with Cleretic that the difference is entirely how the Endless are sustained. We also have the factor that many Endless, particularly in the optional side quests, are fully cognizant to the fact they are copies of dead people and are fine with fading away, which takes much of the edge off of turning them off.

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Yeah, a constant emotion around the Endless is that they're fine with calling it a day. Not only are they aware that they aren't the real thing, they're also not really begging to be given any other treatment; they know they've had a good run, usually all they want is just to have one last good memory to go out on.

That doesn't mean they're nothing, of course: there's a later conversation with Erenville that makes a solid point, that even if the Endless Cahciua wasn't the real Cahciua, the closure he got from talking to her wasn't false.

So we're finally admitting this isn't a FF9 expansion. Guess a little over a year was faster than expected.

That was my main disappointment. Someone I know. "Wait for Dawntrail! We get Alexandria from that game!"

The only other issue, now that the rest has been clarified as I've progressed, that is bothering me, is why is the ruins of Archeo Alexandria SO FAR from Everkeep? The city was literally surrounding the castle shown in the dungeon, but in the Heritage Found, the castle, being within Everkeep is very far from the city itself. The ruins should be literally right up against and underneath Everkeep.

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Originally Posted by Corgain

The only other issue, now that the rest has been clarified as I've progressed, that is bothering me, is why is the ruins of Archeo Alexandria SO FAR from Everkeep? The city was literally surrounding the castle shown in the dungeon, but in the Heritage Found, the castle, being within Everkeep is very far from the city itself. The ruins should be literally right up against and underneath Everkeep.

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Simple: Big city.

While Archeo Alexandria does have some areas based on FFIX Alexandria, the game gets a little cheeky and never actually places them near Alexandria Castle; the Alexandria dungeon never shows them. So we were simply left to take our natural assumption that the castle got destroyed somehow (there's a big crater roughly where Alexandria Castle would be if you used the FFIX recreations as reference point), and it wasn't until we discover the Underkeep ourselves that we learn otherwise.

We know that Alexandria was consumed by rising sea levels, so chances are Archeo Alexandria was on higher hills than the castle itself. There's also some sheer cliffs around the Everkeep, so there's a good chance the land didn't stay put over those four hundred years, either, and we have no idea what the dimensional grafting onto Yyasulani did.

But the original Alexandria Castle is IN Everkeeps sub level. Everkeep was built right overtop of Alexandria Castle as we see in the Alexandria dungeon. In that dungeon we go through the city, to reach the castle, it shows that Alexandria Castle was part of the city itself , it's "castle town" so to speak. If we assume that they couldn't simply move something as huge as Everkeep, away from the city, then the only thing I can come up with is that the dimensional fusion somehow created a geographical distance between the two. I'm sure the city is huge, but the lack of ruins near the Everkeep, where the castle is , is what's bugging me, because the way the dungeon was laid out, you literally walked right from the city streets, into the Castle area. https://external-content.duckduckgo....8a8bd071b7a896 You can sort of make it out in this photo, the city pretty much surrounds the castle. Then everkeep was built up right in the middle of it, OVER the ruins of the castle.

I mean, I guess the explaination is that it's because the rest of it is underwater, and maybe that's the case. It's just the layout of seems a bit wacky to me and I would still think the mostly intact parts would still be situated a bit closer to the site of the original castle in Everkeep. It's a minor nitpick I admit.