Summoner Rework Ideas

Posted this elsewhere and was recommended to post here as well, so:

Don't know if it would really be feasible without a fair amount of behind-the-scenes changes, but I believe one of the fundamental changes that Summoner needs to make it feel better would be to have two pet slots - one for a permanent Carbuncle, and one as the temporary egi/demi/other summons.

A permanent Carbuncle could allow for it to have a separate, extreme range auto attack of its own, such as setting it at like 50y, which would mean that it would never run into the issue of being just slightly out of range during an encounter. It would still only attack whatever your own target is, but as your character would still need to be within whatever normal range of spells was to begin combat, it wouldn't be able to just attack anything willy nilly out of normal combat range.

This would give the Summoner what is effectively a permanent DoT spell - for people that really want all those DoTs back! - while also enabling more interaction via Carbuncle itself. Wouldn't have to worry about things like Radiant Aegis or Searing Light being crippled from Carbuncle leaving the field temporarily during other abilities. This could also mean that many spells, such as Ruin, being changed so that they are coming from Carbuncle rather than the Summoner itself, essentially making it more of the fantasy of the summons themselves doing virtually all of the attacks/abilities, with the Summoner only sending out commands (and hitting things with its book, perhaps).

Having a second temporary pet slot for all of the other summons means they'd be able to have more control over the duration they are out, as well as helping to prevent any ghosting, since they wouldn't need to rely as much on Carbuncle coming back out. For example, sending out an Enkindle Bahamut command just before Bahamut would normally despawn could instead be made to have a slight delay to ensure the ability executed properly, and since it is no longer fully linked to Carbuncle reappearing, it would not affect any other parts of combat.

This could also make the job significantly more fast-paced, as things could be set so that it is somewhat of a combination of the attacks currently in use. You'd not only have your typical Ruin-type spam spell to use (which would now be cast via Carbuncle), but when you have one of the other summons out, the command abilities for those summons could be oGCD weaving spells rather than normal GCDs you would use instead of Ruin. The Ruby/Ifrit commands (and/or any other summons that weren't instant cast) would thus become a choice of an even heavier hitting spell than it currently is, since you would need to completely give up using Ruin + weaved command.

At the same time, they could introduce (at least) two additional regular summons: one Ifrit-like, high damage summon with cast times that would focus on AoE (so somewhat of an Ifrit/Garuda mix), and an additional lower damage, instant cast summon, which would allow you to still gain three charges to summon Bahamut during combat phases that require heavy movement.

The Demi summons could also be changed such that they are somewhat of a choice of which to summon. Make it so that you can't summon the same Demi twice in a row within X minutes. One could have slightly higher single-target damage with no support effects, which would end up as the main boss summon, and the others could be more AoE/support focused, so that they would be more useful for dungeon trash fights, and provide more of a choice to use during boss fights for whatever support effects they provide.

Overall, this would give both a much greater 'Summoner' class fantasy, as nearly every actual effect would be coming from the summons themselves - pretty much the only spell that would be cast by the Summoner itself, other than commands, would be Aethercharge/Dreadwyrm Trance/Summon Phoenix/Solar Bahamut, Energy Drain/Siphon, and Resurrection (and, y'know, Physick, 'cause that's super important). Ruin/Fester/Painflare would all come from Carbuncle. All of the Gemshine/Precious Brilliance spells would be coming from the secondary summon

Nearly every summon would be able to stay on the field for at least a short duration, until their charges were used up, instead of just being a single attack when you summon them, so you'd actually feel more like you were summoning them. Ghosting would be less of a problem, since Carbuncle and the other summons are all no longer linked together. You'd have more interaction via weaving the summon commands, but as you would still mostly only be doing single weaves, it should still be viable for players on higher latency.

As many abilities would still utilize the same button changes as they currently do, adding a couple additional summons wouldn't create much button bloat for the job. Given the total number of summons available in the Final Fantasy universe, this would also open up ways to better add more summons for future level increases. For example, you could have the next expansion add variants for the Egi summons so that you would alternate between them for each rotation: Titan/Garuda/Ifrit on the first rotation, then Ramuh/Shiva/Leviathan the next, all of which are just slightly higher damage than their counterparts, then back to the first set.

These change would also affect the Arcanist class, meaning it could be rolled over for Scholar, keeping Eos out permanently. Seraph skills could be altered to apply a second HoT/heal effect of smaller potency (to equate to the total higher potency compared to Eos alone), but as Seraph would no longer be tied to the same pet slot as Eos, it could effectively remove ghosting entirely from that job as well.

Mhh, i would prefer no real rework of the summoner anymore and more expanding of what whe have now.

1) multiple pets:
Dont really see the advance of it. Except, of letting the carbunkle do anything again. But controlling 2 pets at the same time could probably be more problematic with the controlling. In addition should the the summoner have attacks that comes from himself to. So, that he didnt stand around and do nothing, like a Tamer in Digimon.

2) ST and AoE pet
Whe practicly had that before the rework. Ifrit was the ST pet and Garuda the aoe. In the praxis did most summoner keeped Ifrit and barely used Garuda (and no one used Titan, who was supposed to be a tank).
In addition is there no real difference to now and no real choice, if you still has to summon the others and can not summon the same pet multiple times.

What maybe could change is the duration, each summon stay. Ifrit is over to fast, to really feel him.

3) DoTs.
I dont understand the love for dots. But, i think the reason they removed most of them (esspecialy a dot based class, aside of Bard) was, that it messen up something by the bosses. When to many dots was used. In addition are dots to slow for normal fights.

In overall read most of the suggestion a change in the direction, how the summoner was before the rework. Only, with 2 pets instead of 1.
The summoner how he is now is even summoning his servants more often, as the old one. What create the image of a summoner to.

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Originally Posted by AeriFyrein

A permanent Carbuncle could allow for it to have a separate, extreme range auto attack of its own, such as setting it at like 50y, which would mean that it would never run into the issue of being just slightly out of range during an encounter. It would still only attack whatever your own target is, but as your character would still need to be within whatever normal range of spells was to begin combat, it wouldn't be able to just attack anything willy nilly out of normal combat range.

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One issue I have with this is that this is just extra steps instead of adding +X potency to our Ruin nuke, basically. Since it only attacks when we're attack. The pet has no physical body (it's immune to AoEs and like you said, always in range) of meaning, it has no function of meaning (it adds +X damage to our attacks) and it provides no function we'd need a second entity on the battlefield for.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

One issue I have with this is that this is just extra steps instead of adding +X potency to our Ruin nuke, basically. Since it only attacks when we're attack. The pet has no physical body (it's immune to AoEs and like you said, always in range) of meaning, it has no function of meaning (it adds +X damage to our attacks) and it provides no function we'd need a second entity on the battlefield for.

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While mostly true, the main function of this change would be to eliminate ghosting entirely from the job. Ghosting has gotten better over the last few expansions, but it still exists. By completely unlinking Carbuncle from the other summons, none of the summons would be required to leave the field on an exact timer. This means any ability that is used within the duration of the summon will always be able to be completed before the summon has to despawn.

This change is also meant as a method to make the Summoner feel more like a Summoner: nearly every portion of damage and most every skill would be coming from the Summons, rather than the Summoner. For the most part, this would be completely cosmetic, but it would still add to the job fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Keichi

Mhh, i would prefer no real rework of the summoner anymore and more expanding of what whe have now.

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All of my proposed changes are an effort to this effect. I actually mostly enjoy the current Summoner, I simply want it to be more Summoner-like. As it is, it feels more like a Ranged DPS with fancy effects than an actual Summoner, since a significant portion of the damage comes from the Summoner itself rather than the summons.

The main changes I am proposing are to fully solve the ghosting issue with some skills, as well as make 90-95% of the damage and skills come from the summons rather than the player character. The job would, effectively, play almost entirely the same as the current Summoner. You would simply have more effects coming from the summons, as well as having more options for which summons you can use during a rotation (which would allow for further options to be added in later expansions).

I don't see SMN getting big overhauls anytime soon, because it's still too fresh. IDK if the CBU3 would admit they dropped the ball like that by reworking the rework. However they absolutely can polish what they did already so the job ends up in a more enjoyable state gameplay wise.

I think the regular Carby could have a ranged auto attack again (their dps "Embrace") to justify its presence as a pet, otherwise I don't even see a point anymore but being a Radiant Aegis obstacle.

Second step would be, since they just pop in and out, to change every Gemstone summon into animations instead of pet replacements, so the Carbuncle wouldn't have to go away. It seems like XIV's code can't let characters have more than one instance of pet inside duties.

Demis need to be "pets" because they stay around for a while, that's fine. But Radiant Aegis should be usable by the Demis too. Bonus if it brings different defensive effects based on Bahamut or Phoenix.

With literally the same gameplay, Solar Bahamut needs to just be an upgrade to the regular Bahamut, period. So it gives room from an actual distinct 3rd Demi in the future.

I would also add cast times to the gemstone summons themselves and balace potencies and timings around it. Summoner would feel more like a caster that way... Currently it almost feels as if you're playing Phys. Ranged.

I don't like Necrotize and Energy drain as the 'filler oGCDs'. I don't know how, but I wish they were changed into something that would make more sense with the Gemstone or the Demi phases.

I would like SMN to be freed from its 4-minute rotation, but SMN in Final Fantasy historically is not a pet job. Sure, you can argue out of all the jobs we do have in XIV that SMN, or SCH, are the best jobs for a pet job, but SMN's in the series didn't really call them in as pets nor did they hang around with the rest of the party to fight.

FFX you take "full-control" of whoever Yuna summons, she fits the WHM archetype with the magic she uses, and tell them whatever command you want them to take, but the rest of the party leaves. It would be cool if I could take control and play as Bahamut and the rest of the alliance leaves in FFXIV. Not really, but that would be funny. FFXII and FFXIII work similar to this as well but whoever summons the eikon/primal stays in battle to command them. Anyone can summon in XII and XIII.

FFIV Rydia, who fits the archetype of a BLM, calls them in and they do one big attack and then they go bye-bye.

FFXVI Clive "absorbs" the summons essence (eikons) and take control of their powers but some people literally transform into the Summons (Jinchuriki style).

Our current SMN is a combination of FFIV and FFXVI's style especially; the summons do a big attack and leave while we are left with their powers.

It's honestly nail on the head perfect how it works right now in accordance with the job fantasy. It literally just needs astral flow abilities at a reduced use in STB content (lvl 66) and it's perfect in my eyes. E.g Use 2 quartz topaz to get 1 Titan's favor, slipstream deals damage up front but doesn't leave a dot and Ifrit is just the gap closer without the combo-follow-up and then they upgrade to how they work at lvl 86.

Playing SMN in OC, Forked Tower and current extremes and sometimes it's "impossible" to do your rotation/get through all summons if you're not psychic. I'm not saying that to complain or to say "too hard" but more to say that it really shines in faster paced content. Say you use Ifrit right as Memento Mori hits in Necron EX, shucks, you have to move, be at the back and you can't use your gap closer without PvP mode activating. BLM can literally be like "Trip cast" and do anything it needs at this point. OC is a perfect example of "reactionary" mechanics and sometimes being unable to use slipstream or sometimes any of your Ifrit phase if that's how the timing worked out.

tldr; Current SMN matches FF lore perfectly. I just want the astral flow changes I mentioned 2 paragraphs above this and Shiva, Ramuh and Leviathan. Oh, and the option to summon either Bahamut or Phoenix after Solar Bahamut, our choice, then it's back to a 2-minute rotation.

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Originally Posted by Exinias

tldr; Current SMN matches FF lore perfectly. I just want the astral flow changes I mentioned 2 paragraphs above this and Shiva, Ramuh and Leviathan. Oh, and the option to summon either Bahamut or Phoenix after Solar Bahamut, our choice, then it's back to a 2-minute rotation.

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Agreed, and I very much like the blend of Rydia and Clive as you said. I sympathize with those who liked it as a pet class, but it was clunky and it just didn’t feel like Summoner to me. (I also sympathize with the fact that BST - an actual pet class - is going to be a limited job.)

I’d like Shiva, Ramuh and Levi added as gem summons, but then split all 6 into astral/umbral teams and give us the SMN equivalent of BLM’s Transpose to switch between them. The actions/skills of the team’s summons would be the deciding factor of what you want to use at any given time, so keep their potencies roughly equivalent so as not to create a meta option. I think this would make the job feel more complete, along the lines of how Picto feels like a well-designed, complete job with room for additional skills as time goes on, without adding to button bloat. The gems were a good framework, now add at least three more so SMN gets all the main elemental summons and doesn’t have the repeat the same three gems in between the Demis they keep adding!

Having played 16 (and loved it!), I could see a setup where, depending on exactly what they’re planning for jobs after level 100, we either get to choose from a bunch of different skills for each summon for some customization, or additional gems get added over time and you can choose new gem triads to use within the astral/umbral framework. If they go the latter route, we could get a new gem Triad (or two, but I’m trying to be realistic!) every expansion, increasing the variety while not creating any more button bloat.

Just getting Ramuh, Shiva and Levi every other Demi would be good enough for me, as that’s my only real issue with the job as it is now. But I can see where the rework has the potential to expand in a couple directions if they’d just take advantage of it!

Idea for the Summoner that I think should be reviewed:
Honestly, I think the "main hand arm" should be changed — the book should be exclusive to the Scholar.
Weapon examples:
A. A wand would be a good option
B. Staves like in FFX
Single-target and AoE attacks shouldn’t be performed by the Summoner, but by the summons themselves.
Example: If I summon Ifrit and he uses his ultimate attack, he should then stay on the field to finish any additional charges generated.
All other summons should definitely be included. To reduce the time, their charges could be reduced, or even better — we could introduce support summons and offensive summons.
Examples:
A. Offensive: Ifrit, Shiva, and Ramuh
B. Support: Garuda (overall speed boost), Leviathan (healing and cleansing debuffs), Titan (protection, walls, etc.)
Bahamut and Phoenix should be selectable only after completing a full rotation of the other summons.
Bahamut: offensive
Phoenix: support (maybe with an auto-revive ability)
Lastly, Carbuncle can stay as it is — it doesn’t really need to attack. Though it could be given attack tasks, I see it more as a mana/life regeneration tool or a source of personal protection